Why 440c lost popularity in Spyderco knives ?

brownshoe said:
440C was a premium steel used by custom makers well into the 1980s.

Cast 440C is a totally different beast, don't knock it if you've never used it. It does not behave like "normal" steel.

In my mind, you'd be hard put to tell the difference between 440C, VG10 and 154CM (all properly heat treated for application) in normal use. 440C will take more abuse than VG10 and possibly 154CM.

Buck stopped using 440C because it was "too good", i.e. so durable it was hard to resharpen once some dingus got it really dull. They dumbed down their steel to 420HC.

When 440C was hot, Spyderco used to use Japanese manufacturers who liked Japanese steels, such as AUS8, AUS6, GIN over 440 series which is more "western."

440C as a "brand" got destroyed by the poorer performance of 440A, 440B and the use by many cheap factories of the no-name "440 steel." This created an undeserved bad rep for any steel with the label "440" because people often did not know the difference between 440 steels and thus damned all 440.

Benchmade's 440C is a superb performer, equal to their 154CM in my usage.
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But Mr. Brownshoe sir ... I was reading an article by Chuck Buck sr. Who stated that the reason Buck knives stopped using 440c was because the blade had large carbides which made it dull real quick and hard to sharpen. The article is bfc. You can Google it.
 
I've had mixed results with both ATS-34 and 440C.

I had a few commercial knives made of both ATS-34 and 440C that felt like the heat treat was wrong and I couldn't get either to hold an edge.

Then I have some knives I've made and Heat treated by Paul Bos's operation and Peter's, and those knives are amazing.

I think it has more to do with the consistency of the product and the Heat Treat.
If you are ordering steel by the ton, like any large manufacturer, you need that entire batch to have as few imperfections as possible.
The Heat Treatment cannot vary across the batch of steel. You cant have a few batches of great knives, and a few batches of questionable knives.
I think this is where people get confused, and where 440C has gotten a bad wrap.

And I also think that there are products out there that have a better overall consistant quality than relatively inexpensive 440C.
 
I would say its half reputation, as mentioned before, bad HTs, and confusion with other 400 series steels means 440c is junk in some people's eyes. And the other part I think is there are just better options, The seki city factory only uses Japanese steels, the Taiwan factory usually does higher end knives, and the Golden factory tends to do fairly high end knives as well.
 
Back when Buck was demonstrating the superiority of their knives by cutting nails in half, the steel in use was 440C. Because of its higher Carbon and Chrome content, it is hard to fine blank (stamp out). My beef with 440C is the lack of hard Vanadium carbides. Tungsten, Molybdenum, and Niobium carbides would also be welcome.
 
My old Bucks in 440C were a b*tch to sharpen (before diamond hones). Newer steels with high carbide content are much better IMHO.
 
To me and maybe only me 440c was supposedly the first true answer to a usable edge with real corrosion resistance. I worked with it and found it to also be a real turd to sharpen and after dulling it rotted in a drawer with other less desirable knives I owned, at that time I was trying to sharpen on a whet stone and all-in-one oil. After many bad experiences with 440A or B(no one labels A or B)and a nightmare with 420a I left stainless alone till 154cm was released. I like a large fixed blade in good 440c, wont rust and sharp enough for a large hunter etc... I feel over the years 440c looks like a single 40 year old chick in a bar, She was was supposedly all that twenty years ago but was she? I heard she was but she never really got me that excited.
 
brownshoe said:
440C was a premium steel used by custom makers well into the 1980s.

Cast 440C is a totally different beast, don't knock it if you've never used it. It does not behave like "normal" steel.

440C as a "brand" got destroyed by the poorer performance of 440A, 440B and the use by many cheap factories of the no-name "440 steel." This created an undeserved bad rep for any steel with the label "440" because people often did not know the difference between 440 steels and thus damned all 440.

Benchmade's 440C is a superb performer, equal to their 154CM in my usage.
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Very interesting and thought provoking response Brownshoe as you've done so many times in the past. And I do appreciate your timely contribution especially when you point out that the new SERRATA fixed blade Spyderco model is made from "440C cast">> and I don't profess to be a metallurgist so I hope someone will chime in and explain the differences between the "Cast" and the conventional 440C.

And I'll take back some of what I said about 440C being a mundane performer because I just remembered that I did have one other Spyder that had 440C that did take a decent edge and that was my old "Q" model>> I truly almost forgot that many of the Spyderco "Q" models were made with 440C and the really popular "Q" I had with the Spyder & Web was a decent cutter and I owned it about 10 to 12 years ago but ended up trading it to a guy here at BF.

But again I've personally had much better luck with VG-10, ZDP-189, S90V, D-2 and even S30V>> not to mention my new favorite M390. And I can list at least 6 more blade steels I've had better luck with personally with the cutting jobs I do>> I guess to be fair about it we're probably in a "Ford versus Chevy" type discussion here for the most part.

But please do tell us why the SERRATA model with 440C CAST is so good? I'm all ears at this point.
 
My old Bucks in 440C were a b*tch to sharpen (before diamond hones). Newer steels with high carbide content are much better IMHO.
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My dislike for 440C began long ago when trying to reprofile a thick 440C blade with a arkansas medium. It was a waste of time. After sharpening it I didn't really like the way it performed.

It's one of the least tough steels used in cutlery. Usually ball bearing steels perform pretty well in knives. 52100, 154cm, BG42, etc. 440C needs much more support to keep it from damaging compared to modern powder steels with greater wear resistance. So, better wear resistance, better grain structure, Vanadium carbides? Why not use the better performing powder steels? I see no reason to use 440C though I do love to use steels like 1095, 1084, W2, O1, 52100 and other steels not known for great wear resistance. the attributes they have however keep them relevant in todays cutlery IMO where 440C isn't as much.

Can it make a decent knife? Yes, it can. I wouldn't argue with any knife maker that knew what he was choosing who selected 440C. Same with any buyer who likes the steel. It's just not for me.

In reality though there really aren't any bad steel types/grades. They all have uses. Most steels aren't made to be cutlery steels. They just happen to have qualities that lend themselves to being used in blades with the correct kind of heat treat and temper(s). There are probably less than twenty steels designed for cutlery use being manufactured around the world. Even some of our "super steels" like S90V aren't designed as cutlery steels.
 
I found it interesting that Esee chose to use 440C in the new (finally) SS Izula. I wish they had gone with CPM154, Elmax, or the like. But as has already been mentioned, economy probably had something to do with it. We'll see how it actually holds up in use compared to the coated blades. I don't think I've ever had a 440C Spyderco...
 
Alberta Ed said:
My old Bucks in 440C were a b*tch to sharpen (before diamond hones). Newer steels with high carbide content are much better IMHO.
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Exactly how hard ? CJ Buck said that Buck knives stopped using 440c was because it used to rust and pit a lot . And it used to break half moons out of the blades of the users and that they were impossible to resharpen.
 
Going by some of the older Bucks I've seen, I'm thinking the difficulties in resharpening by the end user were a result of thicker edge geometry, coupled with the sharpening stones that were in use at the time. I had one of their Bucklite folders in 425M, and once the edge was gone, I was never able to get it back using my Arkansas stones. The grind was just too thick.

As for breaking large chunks out of the blades, I have a feeling that was likely caused by people trying to replicate Buck's cutting through a nail test. I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember reading CJ saying that when they did that trick, they used much softer nails. Or it could have been from folks using hunting knives for tasks they weren't really designed for.

I think the Cat that I bought a couple years ago was one with a 440C blade. It certainly felt as sharp as most other Spydercos out of the box, but I didn't own it long enough to check out its performance.
 
carbonsteelfan said:
If you compare side by side ; which steel can cut longer without needing to be sharpened ? 440c or VG-10 ? Cyroguy said VG-10. I also find VG-10 to hold the edge better. I just want every ones opinions and experience about this
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It's a moot point to me. My knives seldom get used to the point they become dull and I tend to sharpen them often, usually when they really don't need any sharpening. Both VG-10 and 440C perform well for my uses.
 
brownshoe said:
440C was a premium steel used by custom makers well into the 1980s.

Cast 440C is a totally different beast, don't knock it if you've never used it. It does not behave like "normal" steel.

In my mind, you'd be hard put to tell the difference between 440C, VG10 and 154CM (all properly heat treated for application) in normal use. 440C will take more abuse than VG10 and possibly 154CM.

Buck stopped using 440C because it was "too good", i.e. so durable it was hard to resharpen once some dingus got it really dull. They dumbed down their steel to 420HC.

When 440C was hot, Spyderco used to use Japanese manufacturers who liked Japanese steels, such as AUS8, AUS6, GIN over 440 series which is more "western."

440C as a "brand" got destroyed by the poorer performance of 440A, 440B and the use by many cheap factories of the no-name "440 steel." This created an undeserved bad rep for any steel with the label "440" because people often did not know the difference between 440 steels and thus damned all 440.

Benchmade's 440C is a superb performer, equal to their 154CM in my usage.
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Nothing wrong with 440a. Had a knife in it once and it performed well. 440c is probably more expensive than things like 8cr13mov, VG-10, Aus 8a etc, but its performance in probably on par with the others in my experience, the little bit of added vanadium to the other steels really refines the grain structure. The main difference when it comes to AUS 8a and 8cr13moV is 440c is more rust resistant. 440c was one of the first decent stainless steels for use in knives that held an edge comparably to carbon steel. We have a lot more options now.
 
StuntDouble said:
Going by some of the older Bucks I've seen, I'm thinking the difficulties in resharpening by the end user were a result of thicker edge geometry, coupled with the sharpening stones that were in use at the time. I had one of their Bucklite folders in 425M, and once the edge was gone, I was never able to get it back using my Arkansas stones. The grind was just too thick.

As for breaking large chunks out of the blades, I have a feeling that was likely caused by people trying to replicate Buck's cutting through a nail test. I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember reading CJ saying that when they did that trick, they used much softer nails. Or it could have been from folks using hunting knives for tasks they weren't really designed for.

I think the Cat that I bought a couple years ago was one with a 440C blade. It certainly felt as sharp as most other Spydercos out of the box, but I didn't own it long enough to check out its performance.
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Chromium carbides are significantly harder than arkansas stones. They can resharpen stainless steels, but it takes a significant amount of time. Arkansas is slow on soft mild carbon enough as it is. It takes me about 3x as long to resharpen even soft 1055 carbon steel on a soft arkie then it would to sharpen it on an india stone, and indias are slow for a modern stone.
 
My Cat in 440C is one of my most carried knives. No, it is not a super steel, but it holds an edge well enough and I can sharpen it very easily. Often I just use the back of my belt as a strop.

I do wish this knife had a compression lock and 154CM steel. That would be good enough for this knife. But, the 440C is just fine.
 
There is nothing wrong with GOOD 440C. The problem is there is so much of the chinese poor quality 440 out there that people assume that 440C is bad. I have some German Boker stuff in the store that is wicked sharp and performs great. I also just got in the Boker Saga kitchen line and it is all 440C as well. Outstanding stuff.

440C is good....as long as you watch where it comes from.

But hey....I am not telling you guys anything you don't know.
 
carbonsteelfan said:
But Mr. Brownshoe sir ... I was reading an article by Chuck Buck sr. Who stated that the reason Buck knives stopped using 440c was because the blade had large carbides which made it dull real quick and hard to sharpen. The article is bfc. You can Google it.
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Well i have never had an old buck 440c, my info about it being hard to sharpen but still good comes from many different old timers on this forum who claim experience with buck 440c. Chuck Buck knows his business; big carbides could be due to a heat treat problem, because in my experince, with ceramic hones, 440c is not too hard to sharpen.
 
JD Spydo said:
Very interesting and thought provoking response Brownshoe as you've done so many times in the past. And I do appreciate your timely contribution especially when you point out that the new SERRATA fixed blade Spyderco model is made from "440C cast">> and I don't profess to be a metallurgist so I hope someone will chime in and explain the differences between the "Cast" and the conventional 440C.

And I'll take back some of what I said about 440C being a mundane performer because I just remembered that I did have one other Spyder that had 440C that did take a decent edge and that was my old "Q" model>> I truly almost forgot that many of the Spyderco "Q" models were made with 440C and the really popular "Q" I had with the Spyder & Web was a decent cutter and I owned it about 10 to 12 years ago but ended up trading it to a guy here at BF.

But again I've personally had much better luck with VG-10, ZDP-189, S90V, D-2 and even S30V>> not to mention my new favorite M390. And I can list at least 6 more blade steels I've had better luck with personally with the cutting jobs I do>> I guess to be fair about it we're probably in a "Ford versus Chevy" type discussion here for the most part.

But please do tell us why the SERRATA model with 440C CAST is so good? I'm all ears at this point.
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My experince with cast 440c is with David Boye knives. I have two fixed blades and one folder. One fixed blade is a custom and etched. Boye calls the steel "dendritic" in structure with a fine pattern of carbides. He has photo micrgraphs of the structure on one of the 2 sites that sell his blades. As the edge wears, the carbides are still present so the dull knife still cuts good. kind of like microscopic serrations. IIRC Boye keeps his 440C a bit on the soft side. He reccomends a toothy edge as well. I believe that property of dedritic steel is why the Spyderco is called the Serrata.

My three knives do perform differently, cutting a long time past the ability to shave hair. Dedritic steel will chip if abused (like accidently trying to chop off the end of some flowers and hittinf a steel rod holding a flower upright. Boye ground out the chip for free! :) ) Too bad the Spydeco collaboration with Boye never came to fruition.

My lady has a 440C Q flag pattern. Its held up great for about 15 years even when used as a screwdriver :)
 
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