Why a Tomahawk?

InfidelShootist said:
You can thrust to the brain or upper spine for instant stops.
Brain through the eye,temple or mastoid.
Upper spine through the neck.
You can do it faster with less of a chance of a counter move "In case you miss" then you can swing in an arc.
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you haven't held a proper hawk it sounds like, brother infidel. - most are too heavy and clumsy, you are right.

and respectfully again, from your "instant stops" statement, you also sound like you have never killed anyone with a blade or chopper - and i doubt you've been in knife combat - i have been, more than once BTW - my money says that you are in for some surprises, brother. - folks don't know they are dead sometimes.

i've been in parts of South America and SouthEast Asia where your statements would cause fits of laughter, in folks who know.

the thing they don't teach you about tapered points like on those beautiful knives is the same thing that makes them lovely at penetration also makes them terrible at deflection by arteries, etc.

i mean no offense, but go whack on a trachea with one, from combat angles - not supported and stationary like Lynn Thompson does in his videos.

even bullets fail, it's no disgrace.

yes, those long knives are deadly IMHO, but more so in ways that you haven't spoken of, i believe. - that said, those are excellent knives, and i like using something very similar in conjunction with a proper long hawk. - the Barong and Bowie Machetes by Cold Steel are very nice alternatives, that go great with a proper hawk - i especially like the 12 inch Bowie Machete for that purpose in the field.

a proper hawk is just as much a tool as a weapon - a true hybrid, with very little sacrifice.

those knives fall short of that description. - great weapons, but mediocre tools.

otherwise i'd be making them.

they are nice tho'.

vec
 
InfidelShootist said:
Every move has a counter.
How do you bob and weave a thrust to low center?
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you move the other guy.

Footwork is what separates master from student.
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in training, i agree.

in actuality, i don't agree - some of my best stuff has been completely stupid and audacious.


Any idiot can cut or thrust.
It takes skill to move correctly.

Feints,Stop hits,reposts,attacks by drawing and combination along with sticking,yielding,grappling,trapping,fighting spirit and killer instinct all come into play.
Skills and knowledge are the most important thing.
Weapon choices only matter when skill levels are near equal.
"Except for firearms with a few exceptions."
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i just want to say i encourage what you are saying here, brother.

i don't want to seem negative towards it.

negative's not how i feel about your advice - just different experiences evidently, affecting my personal choices.

i see a possiblity where the choice of weapons will be more important to common citizens in the near future.

long knives and hawks for me.

vec
 
I like running my Pai Lum sword forms with a hawk.
Thrust at a true artist and you'll pull back a nub. Even if you make a perfect thrust, and/or get lucky, it'll probably be a lose/lose situation.
Still, I wouldn't want to face a rapier or any weapon that much longer than mine.
 
"Weapon choice only really matters when skill is equal" is a great point!

I use my hawk primarily as a tool but i do a lot of martial arts especially knife and edged weapons. As great a combo as the hawk and Hells Belle would be, an amateur with one in each hand can still get taken apart super fast by an unarmed expert. Violence is something you need to learn from experience and practice plus you have to throw a lot of luck and psychology in there so it is a very hard thing to just "pick Up" and do.

The equivalent of just picking up the Hells Belle and the Norse and using them well would be to pick up a violin and get up on stage and play. The better the weapon often the harder it is to use,. a katana or a sniper rifle are good examples.

People seem to think they can just pick up a handgun ,have the guy at the counter show you where the bullets go in and come out and that they are qualified to use it in combat.

A gun often makes people worse fighters because they are trying to draw a weapon when they should be engaging the enemy and getting off line.
 
ulfskeid said:
I like running my Pai Lum sword forms with a hawk.
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every buddy's talkin' dirty tonite ...:D....

good stuff.

...........

i have been watching some ninja trap/kills against samaurai swords, with hawk-like weaponry.

i think if you are mentally prepared to face some other kind of weapon than whatever you got, you are formidable.

i think one reason folks write off hawks, especially if they haven't wielded a proper long hawk (24 inches and up) is that they don't realize that there are at leasdt ten other ways to hold the tomahawk, good hawk or not, besides the Western Hammer-type hold you normally see - which is probably the worst way to hold a hawk, even in utility applications, because your wrist and elbow are doing all the work that the hawk should be doing.

anyways - for instance, hold any hawk inverted with the heel of your hand up by the head, and you have a faster-turning arnis than an arnis stick, because of the ballast-effect of the extra weight of the hawk head.

then you have different applications of the same grip when you turn the hawk 90 degrees in your hand at the same grip location on the handle, and the list goes on to some pretty devastating offensive systems with a hawk, completley different from regular hammer grip, with the same weapon. - and that's before you start throwing it. - and even then, you haven't employed trickery, which a hawk is great at, for decisive compound strikes with your ulna and elbow.

not so with many other edged weapons.

vec
 
vector001 said:
you haven't held a proper hawk it sounds like, brother infidel. - most are too heavy and clumsy, you are right.

and respectfully again, from your "instant stops" statement, you also sound like you have never killed anyone with a blade or chopper - and i doubt you've been in knife combat - i have been, more than once BTW - my money says that you are in for some surprises, brother. - folks don't know they are dead sometimes.

i've been in parts of South America and SouthEast Asia where your statements would cause fits of laughter, in folks who know.

the thing they don't teach you about tapered points like on those beautiful knives is the same thing that makes them lovely at penetration also makes them terrible at deflection by arteries, etc.

i mean no offense, but go whack on a trachea with one, from combat angles - not supported and stationary like Lynn Thompson does in his videos.

even bullets fail, it's no disgrace.

yes, those long knives are deadly IMHO, but more so in ways that you haven't spoken of, i believe. - that said, those are excellent knives, and i like using something very similar in conjunction with a proper long hawk. - the Barong and Bowie Machetes by Cold Steel are very nice alternatives, that go great with a proper hawk - i especially like the 12 inch Bowie Machete for that purpose in the field.

a proper hawk is just as much a tool as a weapon - a true hybrid, with very little sacrifice.

those knives fall short of that description. - great weapons, but mediocre tools.

otherwise i'd be making them.

they are nice tho'.

vec
Click to expand...

There were fencing schools around for hundreds of years at a time before firearms were invented.
I doubt seriously you've had more edged weapons fights then they did.
Same goes for the Spartans and Romans.
I could and would gladly prove my point in person.
I won't waste my time arguing on the net with amateurs who make assumptions about my experience or lack of it or tell war stories I can't prove.
Why I usually avoid Prac Tac or the subject.

I trained at the Chinese's Boxing Institute under Professor Cravans among other experts in the field not from Lynn Thomson videos or South American bars watching drunks fight.
I've also been paid to teach real experts and was paid for my fighting abilities
with gun and knife.
If you ever want to get drunk in person and compare how many men we've killed and how I'm in.
I won't do it here.
 
I love knives and tomahawks also, but I spent almost 22 years in the military and never killed anyone with an edged weapon and never met anyone that did either. You'll hear allot of "my cousin or this guy I know in special forces wasted 10 people with a knife" stuff, but I could never run any story to ground that didnt turn out to be barracks BS. Bottom line is if you want an instant kill then drop a MK 84 JDAM on them from a mile away, its a much more sure thing that trying to stab someone in the brain stem while they're trying to do the same thing to you.
 
take it easy, brother infidel.

i think i was clear that i meant no offense.

.......

we're both entitled to disagree here. - Lynn Thompson and bars were not my source of H2H education BTW, and if it was, i would certainly agree with you. - but that's not what i said in the first place, was it.

My teachers were SEALs and the folks who taught them mostly, in my formal educational experiences - all of which was after two experiences where my opponents employed knives.

they lost.

some of the folks here know me in person, and they can say what is what, not that that changes anything.

i am sorry i annoyed you - that was not the intention.

i hope to meet up with you sometime, brother, and i look forward to taking you up on your kind offer and seeing what ya got.

i'm in Coronado, California, in case you are nearby, or passing through.

yours,

vec
 
I never killed anyone either...but I still wanna be a member of Spark's tomahawk club...'cause the Jones Monster's been chewin' on my leg and it hurts...it hurts real bad fellas. :o
 
CitizenQ said:
I never killed anyone either...but I still wanna be a member of Spark's tomahawk club...'cause the Jones Monster's been chewin' on my leg and it hurts...it hurts real bad fellas. :o
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i'll have a bandage for that in no time, brother Q.

in the meantime - uh - bleed/suffer with grace (damn jones monsters - a couple bit me this afternoon looking at Tactical Tailor stuff).... :D

vec
 
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I've never killed anyone with an edged weapon. I feel lucky to be able to say so.
I've been in a couple tight spots and of course the only edged weapon I had was a smallish folder. Little comfort, eh? Fortunately all situations were resolved with the feeble weapon between my ears.

I guess my point is that if you find yourself in a fight, it's best to bring a JDAM or Tomahawk cruise missile. Failing that, you have to use what you have. I'm more likely to have a 'hawk handy, so I suppose that would be my default weapon of choice.

Historically the axe has proven itself a formidable weapon. Swords may not have been as readily available because they were more expensive, but even in history some who could afford swords chose an axe, e.g. Robert the Bruce. I think that speaks to the efficacy of the axe.

I once saw a Lochaber axe in a museum in Scotland. It was a crude but fierce looking weapon and made a profound image in my mind. Cheap to make, clearly deadly, and easy to use. No wonder the highlanders carried them into battle against "fire and sword."

Sir Richard Francis Burton had some first hand experience with edged weapons and wrote a nice book on the subject: The Book of the Sword. His conclusion is that thrust with a point is superior to cut with an edge in armed battle. As Infidel points out, the distance is shorter and force required to inflict a lethal wound less. It's hard to disregard his advice about armed fighting.

Yet it's just more likely that I'll have a useful tool like a 'hawk with me than a sword. And it's the tool at hand that will get the job done.
 
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InfidelShootist,
You said:
"You can thrust to the brain or upper spine for instant stops.
Brain through the eye,temple or mastoid.
Upper spine through the neck.
You can do it faster with less of a chance of a counter move "In case you miss" then you can swing in an arc."

Then I said:
"A thrust can be dodged... think 'bob and weave' like a boxer..."

Then you ask:
"How do you bob and weave a thrust to low center?
Footwork is what separates master from student.
Any idiot can cut or thrust.
It takes skill to move correctly."

You specified 'thrusting' to areas above the shoulders...
That is why I talked about 'bobbing and weaving'...
Then you asked "How do you bob and weave a thrust to low center?"
ABOVE THE SHOULDERS is a lot different than LOW CENTER, brother...

Apples are not oranges... :(
 
If you want to be realistic about a tomahawk, the one popular thing that's probably more of a danger to the user than anyone else is a spike. Having a spike on one makes it much more easier to get hurt with your own weapon, the spike is much more likely to penetrate through the sheath than the primary cutting edge. I have heard a reason to have a spike is they can penetrate through a kevlar helmet; true, but why do that if your that close hit the unarmored side of their head, and if you punch through a kevlar helmet good luck in quickly getting the spike back out. A much more handy item on the back end of a tomahawk head is a hammer poll, much more uses as a tool, and just as handy in whacking someone. With that said, I'll hand the discussion back to the ninjas in the crowd.
 
lol. I thought he was just lost, and incorrectly posted to one of the many forums he is a member of. I've done that ONCE myself, embarrasing as heck. Copied & pasted a doc that I'd created in WP, so I could use the spell-checker.
The olde grey cells, they ain't what they used to be...
 
Nuke41,
Saying the spike on a tomahawk is 'more of a danger to the user' comes across like the anti-gunner philosophy that says having a gun in the home is more of a danger to the occupants than it would be to an intruder. I don't mean this to sound rude, but if I chose to use my VTAC in self defense, the spike would DEFINITELY be more of a danger to the other guy... not to me...
I wouldn't be swinging it in a direction where it would be in line with my own head, and what would it bounce/glance off of to direct it at my head/face???
 
i am a hammer-poll lover, myself, but the perpetuated myth that a spike is useless or dangerous to an attentive hawk user, or even a combatant, is pitiable at best.

i guess truth always suffers in a democracy like this one, vice a republic.

oh well, at least it is fun here.


where's brother dwight when ya need him.


all the "discussion" about a blade of equal or lessor length to a hawk in combatives being equal or better, true or not, never takes into account that a proper long hawk can become an entirey different weapon, not only when it is inverted with the hand under the head, but when it is held at the distal end of the handle, the opposite end of the head, PLUS all the combinations of holds where the hawk is turned on its long axis in the hand - for example, with the hawk turned at ninety degrees to the normal grip, with the spike or poll outboard - develop some skills with holds like that and you will make them your own.

Khukris come very close to a hawk in my reasoning - but not a PROPER hawk, which has an inertial spike or poll that allows the hawk to track precisely in any plane, backwards and forwards - the khukris cannot do that, they flop.

there are other tools with the proper tomahawk characteristics that i love, with the balance, weight, utitlity and weapons handling; like the Isnag Aliwah that i have mentioned, but those are not common yet in America. i am trying to get some to vectorize. - good enough for headhunters means they are good enough for me. :thumbup:

a long knife or short sword is a weapon to be respected, proper hawk or not, and i would feel well-armed with either one, but in the nearly-impossible chance that i get in combat with a brother who has a 14-inch light blade against my vectorized 24-inch hawk (using weapons of roughly the same length and weight for sake of clarity in the example) with equal amounts of skill in both fighters, i think the hawker will win, simply because of the multiple amout of mechanical advantages and modes that a hawk can be employed in, which surpass the example's blade possibilities by a factor of something like 4 to 1, conservatively - that tells my small brain that the equal fighter with the blade has a twenty percent chance of victory. - all the Ren Fair bullshit and Dojo Crap i have seen with similar scenarios showed me just one thing; the practitioners didn't know anything about hatchets, hawks, or battle axes, or especially their differences - everything was just a hammer to them.

proper hawks and knives are mates anyway - i see little reason to compare them when a man should have each, before any other weapon or tool, after fire.


on the utility of spikes;

not much beats a spike for digging down to dry wood and many other field chores, including making camp furniture and utilities - it's a shame they are so pandemically written off. - now i realize a lot of you see the obvious merits of a folding saw or similar implements for such tasks, but they just don't endure as long as hawks and knives in field situations - i love the saws, when i am camping, but when i am trekking or surviving, they stay behind and hawk always comes along with a large knife, if i have a choice.

this is where and why we get into some disagreements - some of us camp within sight of a generator and TV, and others don't bring a blanket - different priorities.

the spike hawk myth has grown to societal proportions in some parts of the world - we can't send a spike hawk to Adelaide, Australia legally, for instance.

man, don't you brethren hate ignorance, as i do!?!

it's galling.

it's gonna get worse too.


i gotta have a field head spike hawk made. - the closest thing i have had to it so far is a La Gana with a 24 inch handle - and i wish i'd made it with a longer handle.

i think it is also too bad that a lot of you haven't had edged weapon combat, - the fact is, it still happens, and it will become more common as our newly-elected president has his way, especially if you don't accept what may come in our non-Constitution-observing government.

(no forms yet to buy hawks and machetes.)


and yet a few more things - not all spikes are created equally, just as everything that has a slip handle is not a tomahawk - to say what does and does not stick in a Kevlar helmet isn't painting with a broad brush, it's using a paint grenade. :D

- no different saying a sparrow can catch a Salmon because an eagle is a bird and so is a sparrow.

huh?

let's tighten up our parlance, if we cannot button up our manners.

i visit this site because we can talk rationally and truthfully.

i think i have done this, as have many others.

very respectfully,

vec
 
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