Why all the Opinel rave?

I have used this parer as my dedicated steak knife for nearly two years now:

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It dulls quickly on our ceramic plates, but I can also resharpen from dead dull to shaving in under a minute with a $5 stone. Since "performance" seems too subjective to properly define, I would just say that the cutting ability is very high. The cost or production methods seem irrelevant to this. I have only come across a handful of knives with similar or thinner geometry, regardless of price.
 
The HT is not really all that great from what I personally have seen, I have a couple here, but for the price point I wasn't expecting much either.

They harden their Carbone (similar to 1086) to 56 Rc. A very old and traditional approach for working knives. It is softer than my preference, but since it's a non-stainless steel, it hones up nicely and is incredibly tough.

They harden their 12C27 to 58 Rc. Can you name anybody who heat treats 12C27 (or any other fine grained stainless) better? It's easily on par with Buck's Bos treated 420HC, or better.

I will say this again..... The geometry is a result of keeping the cost low as possible, not the other way around, you have cause and effect here.

I don't think this is defensible either in terms of history or modern economics.

The Opinel was designed in the mid 1800s. My understanding of the history of mass produced knives is that thin blade stock was preferred and dominated prior to WWII. Arguably, the Ka-Bar fighting utility knife, started the shift towards a sharpened pry bar design philosophy. The Opinel, like most traditional slip joints and most fixed blades from before and just after WWII were simply much thinner than what we commonly see today.

In terms of the economics, if a thin convex grind was a result of lowering production costs, we should expect to see thin convex grinds dominating the sub-$20 knife market. That's hardly the case. Thick blades dominate. Why? Because blade stock for fine carbide steels is a very, very small marginal cost and is entirely overrun by the need to satisfy customer's perceived preferences. It's dirty rotten secret that Loveless adopted a hollow grind because it looked cool and sold more knives and thick blade stock does the same. People buy thick blades because they emotionally perceive them to be better and people buy with their hearts. This explains why most inexpensive (and expensive) folding knives use thick stock and grinds that produce visual flurishes.

It also explains why an Opinel will out slice a ZT folding prybar. The ZT is designed to satisfy customer's desires for thick blades with visually stunning grinds.

That design is very old and was designed as what it is, a peasant knife (very low cost), that is something you can't get around.

This doesn't stand up to scrutiny from an engineering perspective on 2 levels. First and most directly, cost has no direct bearing on performance. None. Material selection, design and manufacturing quality have bearings on performance. Most often, more expensive can mean better performance if and only if that extra cost leads to better materials, better design and better manufacturing. But cost alone doesn't predict performance. Opinels excel due to great design and more than adequate material and production.

Second, from a history of engineering standpoint, there have been countless inexpensive "peasant" knives. Almost all of them have been consigned to the dustbin of history. The Opinel, somehow, continues to perform. Astute students of engineering and design can easily recognize why. The design strikes a great balance between competing objectives. From a design stand point, it's a classic. Price has nothing to do with it.
 
Just different tastes I suppose. I've never personally liked any Opinels I've handled, same with Laguioles.
 
It is what it is. If no like the round handle or ring lock these have been around awhile.
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Thin stock, made from strip steel that is stamped out keeps the cost down, way down compared to other methods of manufacture.

I've said it before and caused hurt feelings, but you are absolutely correct about this.. but you forgot the corollary that follows... Thick blade stock is used to keep costs up.

It's a bug in knife design, not a feature. Unless you're good at using that bug to get knife nuts to part with their money. Which is why it's so trivial to find knives that cost far more money and still cannot match the efficiency of an Opinel. This is simply one of those areas where form and function are at cross purposes, but form often wins out because knives are not often sold on purely functional qualities. Get past the modest price point of the Opinel, and they are baubles for people like us use and carry, often as projections of our personality, a way to display ourselves to the world.
 
I've said it before and caused hurt feelings, but you are absolutely correct about this.. but you forgot the corollary that follows... Thick blade stock is used to keep costs up.

It's a bug in knife design, not a feature. Unless you're good at using that bug to get knife nuts to part with their money. Which is why it's so trivial to find knives that cost far more money and still cannot match the efficiency of an Opinel. This is simply one of those areas where form and function are at cross purposes, but form often wins out because knives are not often sold on purely functional qualities. Get past the modest price point of the Opinel, and they are baubles for people like us use and carry, often as projections of our personality, a way to display ourselves to the world.

Yes exactly, it does work both ways, most things do.

Just trying to be realistic.
 
They're on the softer/tougher side, but harder than a lot of more premium knives out there, by the same token. They're just a fine-grain, low-carbide simple steel--regardless of if you go with their carbon or stainless offering.



And you'll be absolutely incorrect, again. Please describe in what manner the geometry is a cost-cutting measure. They bring their grinds thin and almost to a zero grind. While convex, it is a very shallow convex. The only thing that saves expense in their grinding is their thin stock, but that's a byproduct of their net geometry--if they increased the stock thickness then the total geometry of the grind would also thicken. Cost savings are a part of other aspects of the knife, but the grind is not one of them.



And yet effective design need not be expensive. What Opinel has done is build their design around simplicity. Extraneous features are, for the most part, stripped away. They use a simple slotted wood handle that's turned on an automated copy lathe, a pin for a pivot, and a press-formed collar and locking ring. All of this yields a knife of very minimalistic construction, and that simplifies the manufacturing and assembly process and eases automation, as well as reducing tooling costs due to the interchangeable nature of many of their components and their volume of production. That doesn't mean that they don't cut well. You can easily make a more expensive knife that is lower performance in most respects.



I'm not. Don't make them into less than they really are, either. I'd be keen to know exactly what makes you consider them to not be "high performance" in their geometry. What is it about their geometry that causes them, in your opinion, not to perform highly? What production knives do you consider to have a higher performance geometry, and in what respects? In what context of use? Because I'm really quite confused as to how you came to this conclusion.

With the thin blade stock it's not all that hard to get good geometry, they are typically around .012" behind the edge, that's not difficult at all as there isn't much steel to start with.

We have all been down this road before, and more than a few times.

It always ends up the same, going round and round over $12 knives...

Not worth the effort or my time when I compare that to what I am used to using on a daily basis.
 
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My father-in-law used to work in a factory and he told me most working folk will not spend a lot of money on a EDC knife. They buy a decent knife at a decent knife at a decent price and they keep it sharp and use it.
I put my Opinel or my Peasant knife in my pocket most of the time.
rolf
 
With the thin blade stock it's not all that hard to get good geometry, they are typically around .012" behind the edge, that's not difficult at all as there isn't much steel to start with.

Measuring directly from a No.8, it wasn't until 0.0515" back from the edge that it reached 0.012". Behind the edge it was more like 0.0002", with a stock thickness of 0.068".

Doing some approximating due to the convex nature of the grind, the grind angle behind the edge is about 4.4° per side and reduces as you get near the spine. In fact, based on the stock thickness and blade width, it would be impossible to flat grind below 2.8° per side without reducing the stock thickness further. If the whole blade were done at a 4.4° per side flat grind then the grind would still reach 0.442" up the blade, so you'd still be within a quarter inch of the spine. That's a bit higher than the bottom edge of their logo stamping.
 
Measuring directly from a No.8, it wasn't until 0.0515" back from the edge that it reached 0.012". Behind the edge it was more like 0.0002", with a stock thickness of 0.068".

Doing some approximating due to the convex nature of the grind, the grind angle behind the edge is about 4.4° per side and reduces as you get near the spine. In fact, based on the stock thickness and blade width, it would be impossible to flat grind below 2.8° per side without reducing the stock thickness further. If the whole blade were done at a 4.4° per side flat grind then the grind would still reach 0.442" up the blade, so you'd still be within a quarter inch of the spine. That's a bit higher than the bottom edge of their logo stamping.


Not on the ones I have measured. ;)

They all have been around .012" and almost flat ground, that's using a steel straight edge.
 
Not on the ones I have measured. ;)

They all have been around .012" and almost flat ground, that's using a steel straight edge.

I have a bunch of 6's, 7's and 8's in front of me right now...how many measurement samples do you want? Angles were taken using a hinged steel ruler digital protractor. Just did a quick check of a few others and the results were consistent.

Even the big ol' No.12 I have on hand is 0.004" behind the edge and doesn't reach 0.012" until 0.034" back from the edge.
 
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I have a bunch of 6's, 7's and 8's in front of me right now...how many measurement samples do you want? Angles were taken using a hinged steel ruler digital protractor. Just did a quick check of a few others and the results were consistent.

Even the big ol' No.12 I have on hand is 0.004" behind the edge and doesn't reach 0.012" until 0.034" back from the edge.

Those are out of the box right?

I measure after reprofiling to 15 DPS etc.

Since I don't use factory edges in testing etc.
 
Yes, out of the box. But the factory edge angle is already that low--it's just a little rough and so it takes a few strokes per side on a medium stone to refine the edge a bit, but the angle doesn't need messing with.
 
Yes, out of the box. But the factory edge angle is already that low--it's just a little rough and so it takes a few strokes per side on a medium stone to refine the edge a bit, but the angle doesn't need messing with.

The ones I had here were like 40 DPS, yes that's 40 degrees per side.

I know what 15 DPS side looks like on very thin geometry, they weren't it.
 
I actually tested one prior to posting, both measuring the angle and holding a fresh factory blade at 15° on a bench stone and taking a few strokes to confirm. That being said, there is some degree of variation batch to batch in how the edges are finished out.
 
I'm curious--you don't happen to have info on how far back the edge shoulder was on those ones you reprofiled, do you? Trying to do some comparison here.
 
I'm curious--you don't happen to have info on how far back the edge shoulder was on those ones you reprofiled, do you? Trying to do some comparison here.

Been too long ago since I messed with them so I don't remember.

Looked like a micro bevel though, I do remember that much.
 
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