The Yen fell 30% against the U.S. dollar since late last year. That means things should be cheaper.
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Why are Al Mar knives SO EXPENSIVE?
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The Yen fell 30% against the U.S. dollar since late last year. That means things should be cheaper.
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If I recall the Moki made Japanese Spydercos have a kind of curvy letter 'y' in the Spyderco name marking , the G Sakai made knives have the regular 'Y'
From my experience the quality is still top notch.
The design is generally no nonsens as the man himself was.
I carried a small SERE folder for many years (rubber handle) an it served me well.
As of the AF-knife with the lexan scale: I don't know what went wrong with that batch.
The Lexan (here used as handle slabs) is supposed to be used on Tomahawks and therefore be more stable.
From a collectors point of view it sure is an interesting item.
red mag
PS: I switched to larger blades.
The design is generally no nonsens as the man himself was.
I carried a small SERE folder for many years (rubber handle) an it served me well.
As of the AF-knife with the lexan scale: I don't know what went wrong with that batch.
The Lexan (here used as handle slabs) is supposed to be used on Tomahawks and therefore be more stable.
From a collectors point of view it sure is an interesting item.
red mag
PS: I switched to larger blades.
powernoodle
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Lets not ignore the fact that pricing is largely a marketing strategery. The not so subtle message from the manufacturer is that if these knives cost more, they must be worth it, right? Consider Microtech, Hinderer, CRK and Busse. These are all fine products, but pricing is not merely a function of the manufacturer's cost. Much of the pricing structure is psychology and perception. There is also some economic theory going on here. I recall that when the Toyota Tundra pickup was introduced several years ago, Toyota chose to artificially jack the MSRP in order to feed the public's perception that the Tundra must be "better" than the F150 and Silverado. The Tundra may have in fact been "better" than the competition, but the price structure was a marketing strategy. The practical effect as well is that Toyota sells fewer trucks than Ford and Chevy, but they have higher margins. Other manufacturers choose to sell more product at reduced margins to get the same revenue.
My point is that just because Al Mar or anyone else inflates the MSPR, it doesn't necessarily mean that the product is better. Like someone pointed out, AUS8 is AUS8, and G10 is G10 whether it comes from Al Mar or Cold Steel. Al Mar's and Toyotas and CRKs may in fact be objectively "better" than the competition, but fixing the MSRP entails much more than just reflecting the manufacturer's costs.
Just my view, guys. Yesterday I was looking at the Al Mar orange Eagle HD, but at $165 there is no way I'm buying it. It "should" be an $85 knife.
My point is that just because Al Mar or anyone else inflates the MSPR, it doesn't necessarily mean that the product is better. Like someone pointed out, AUS8 is AUS8, and G10 is G10 whether it comes from Al Mar or Cold Steel. Al Mar's and Toyotas and CRKs may in fact be objectively "better" than the competition, but fixing the MSRP entails much more than just reflecting the manufacturer's costs.
Just my view, guys. Yesterday I was looking at the Al Mar orange Eagle HD, but at $165 there is no way I'm buying it. It "should" be an $85 knife.
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Price will move to the point that profit is maximized. Typically if a company's production is sold out price will move up to reduce demand and if the manufacturing capability is under utilized, price will adjust downward to increase demand. It's not quite that simple, because of other costs besides labor and material.
Ed J
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Al Mar died about 20 years ago. Last I heard, the company was owned by Gary Fadden. Talking about knives made 'back in the day', might not reflect what is happening now with the company or it's products.
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I've got to say, I always wondered about the prices of Al Mar knives, as well, but just by chance, I came across an older model SERE Operator in CPM-S30V instead of VG-1 or VG-10. This knife takes the best edge of any S30v knife that I own. I'm talking about a ridiculous edge. Hair whittling thin, but not only does it take an unbelievable edge, it holds it extremely well. Now, I didn't care for the handle scales that were on it when I bought it( it had some plastic scales held on with torx screws, unlike the new ones that have micarta ) so I fashioned some custom shaped micarta slabs and now this knife would absolutely be my go-to knife if I was ever in the situation that people bring up on here -- you know, the SHTF and I need one knife to handle a multitude of jobs - defense, bushcraft, skinning and cutting food, etc.
Now, I'm in the market to buy another of the SERE Operators ( a new VG-10 model this time ) and I am saving up my money to buy one of the old school SERE 4000 or SERE 7 models that I see pop up for sale occasionally.
In fact..............if anyone out there knows someone selling an old Al Mar SERE IV or SERE Fighter ( one of the ones with a bolster and, usually, maroon micarta handle slabs ) with a 6.5"+ length blade, and no saw serrations on the spine, please get in contact with me.
Now, I'm in the market to buy another of the SERE Operators ( a new VG-10 model this time ) and I am saving up my money to buy one of the old school SERE 4000 or SERE 7 models that I see pop up for sale occasionally.
In fact..............if anyone out there knows someone selling an old Al Mar SERE IV or SERE Fighter ( one of the ones with a bolster and, usually, maroon micarta handle slabs ) with a 6.5"+ length blade, and no saw serrations on the spine, please get in contact with me.
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Moki makes a good product including the Caly series for Spyderco and many of the Al Mar models. I agree that the Al Mar knives are overpriced for what they are and it's not Moki's fault. Spyderco manages to offer the Caly at competitive pricing even with premium steel variations. Look at the Al Mar Hawk with 2.5" Aus 8 blade and jigged bone scales and compare with Moki's own Kronos with 2.8" VG-10 blade and jigged bone scales. The street prices are about the same for these similar models but Moki gives you more bang for the buck than Al Mar.
dax0007
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That was a KNOWN problem and design flaw with the original BLACK and GREEN handle.. Mr. Mar did some many great things and his designs where countless.. Not sure why this issue was missed, but Mr.Mar then came out with the WOOD MICARTA type handles which can take a beating! I WILL TEL YOU THIS! The GREEN and BLACK plastic handle ones ARE WORTH A PRETTY PENNY! Cause they are so collectable! VERY HARD TO FIND!!
Here is a link of that time in history http://blackjack.0catch.com/pages/wickershamafarticle.htm
Just my luck, modded the sheath and threw the green plastic handles away and replaced it with custom wood.
dax0007
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This is correct! However from my experience with the new AL MAR company is Mr.Fadden is just as strict on production quality of his knives as AL MAR was.. AL MAR and Mr.Fadden were very close friends from what I am told.. I am still very impressed with the quality! Also remember people dont realize how important HEAT TREATMENT is.. Many custom or high production knives dont get the proper heat treatment or the type that was specified.. Thats one thing that impresses people is how well AL MAR hold a blade.... I love the new stuff and I hear they got some exotic stuff coming out too.!!
dax0007
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Brother been there and done that!! I make 50$ on one knive and lose 300 on another..lol! .. Its very rare to find a BLACK or green plastic handle vintage dagger of that type without a crack. In my AL MAR collection most of my knives where originally purchased by 1 collector and both ones i have, have small cracks.. check ebay completed auctons on AL MAR daggers you will see the black or green handles sell for crazy 400-550$!!
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dumb buyers
good knife maker
makes for high prices, no doubt that al mar makes good jap (this is not a insult too the japaneese peple) steel, very good timing, with the knife biz. All and all i am a Al Mar fan but i do not own one knive made by them.
Around that time, jap steel really was improving you ever see a honda civic with wings? ya that was rusted out front quarter panels.
there was too much sulfer. temps in jap land are higher.
salt and us weather made jap steel bad. they reduced the sulfer.
Al Mar is high end steel, japaneese have been making steel for close too, or more then a 1000 years. steel is iron with carbon properly placed in the iron matrix.
The knife market is driven by food knives, this transfered too the figher knife market. Japanesse have a long tradition, al mar, too advantage or low wages at the time, good steel forging tech from 1000 of years and good steel that the japaneese where just perfecting for cars etc.
al mar are good knives but over prices, like many collectables.
good knife maker
makes for high prices, no doubt that al mar makes good jap (this is not a insult too the japaneese peple) steel, very good timing, with the knife biz. All and all i am a Al Mar fan but i do not own one knive made by them.
Around that time, jap steel really was improving you ever see a honda civic with wings? ya that was rusted out front quarter panels.
there was too much sulfer. temps in jap land are higher.
salt and us weather made jap steel bad. they reduced the sulfer.
Al Mar is high end steel, japaneese have been making steel for close too, or more then a 1000 years. steel is iron with carbon properly placed in the iron matrix.
The knife market is driven by food knives, this transfered too the figher knife market. Japanesse have a long tradition, al mar, too advantage or low wages at the time, good steel forging tech from 1000 of years and good steel that the japaneese where just perfecting for cars etc.
al mar are good knives but over prices, like many collectables.
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What? ZDP at rc 57-59? That's difficult to believe. Anything I can read about this? Was it a mistake? Deliberate production goals? WTF?
Joe
Funny that this thread popped up now. I was looking at the Eagle Talon HD last night. I looked really hard and found a reputable dealer selling it for about $115 plus shipping. While that is just a few dollars less than I paid for my BM Rift, I would definitely pay that for the Eagle HD. Why? Because there is no other knife I know of on the market that comes close in design. If I need a really tough folder steel, I will through my Country Cousin in my back pocket.
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I am surprised to see the turn this thread has taken. Al Mar knives built their reputation on innovative design and building a reliable, extremely well built product. The had a knife that didn't measure up, so that soured a lot of folks on the AM brand forever. Al Mar has been around for a long time now and the apparent failure of the handles on one knife from their catalog didn't kill the brand.
But they still must be doing something right if they can sustain their prices. Looking at several of their products at the last few gun shows, they still show the same fit and finish that they have maintained over the last many, many years.
You can't sell poorly made knives long and establish a name. Take a look at all the failed knife companies here in the USA. There is no more Schrade, no more Camillus, no more Imperial, no more Colonial, and many others that tried to make their knives cheaper by substituting quality of fit and finish. Those companies were in trouble long before the onslaught if Asian made knives. They are all long gone, memorialized by having an Asian company buy their names and patterns and crank up making their knives again.
As far as the whining about the steel, don't knock Al Mar's heat treatment until you try it. I never was a steel snob, but probably like most here I have my share of S110V, D2, 154, S30, etc. My new American Lawman in AUS8 will hold its own against any of them, and then some. The Cold Steel process of tempering is quite extensive and it transforms this from an ordinary run of the mill steel to something really great. Smarter people than me from this forum put me onto the CS products, but did so on the side because they didn't want to listen to the screeching about Lyn Thompson.
Al Mar's steel treatment is in that category, less all the baggage from Lyn Thompson.
As far as pricing of the product goes, go to the Traditional forum here and look at the prices they pay for an old fashioned knife pattern. Nothing new, nothing innovative. In fact, most there prefer old fashioned carbon steel that literally hasn't changed in production methods or heat treatments since the turn of the last century. They gladly pay $125 and up for plain 1095 carbon steel, hardened only to a very soft Rockwell number so they can sharpen them easily. Even at those prices, quality can be spotty on ALL of the models of the most favored brand there, and folks routinely post pictures of poor fit, finish, operation and grinds.
I think with Al Mar there may be a bit of a premium to know that you are getting a well made product, but in line with the pricing of comparable products it isn't that much of a premium. If Al Mar isn't for you or you don't see the value of the knife brand, great. That's why are all here sometimes, and that is to compare notes. But if you don't own one or haven't used one extensively, I think dismissing them out of hand is talking out of your (don't need another chiclet here).
Robert
But they still must be doing something right if they can sustain their prices. Looking at several of their products at the last few gun shows, they still show the same fit and finish that they have maintained over the last many, many years.
You can't sell poorly made knives long and establish a name. Take a look at all the failed knife companies here in the USA. There is no more Schrade, no more Camillus, no more Imperial, no more Colonial, and many others that tried to make their knives cheaper by substituting quality of fit and finish. Those companies were in trouble long before the onslaught if Asian made knives. They are all long gone, memorialized by having an Asian company buy their names and patterns and crank up making their knives again.
As far as the whining about the steel, don't knock Al Mar's heat treatment until you try it. I never was a steel snob, but probably like most here I have my share of S110V, D2, 154, S30, etc. My new American Lawman in AUS8 will hold its own against any of them, and then some. The Cold Steel process of tempering is quite extensive and it transforms this from an ordinary run of the mill steel to something really great. Smarter people than me from this forum put me onto the CS products, but did so on the side because they didn't want to listen to the screeching about Lyn Thompson.
Al Mar's steel treatment is in that category, less all the baggage from Lyn Thompson.
As far as pricing of the product goes, go to the Traditional forum here and look at the prices they pay for an old fashioned knife pattern. Nothing new, nothing innovative. In fact, most there prefer old fashioned carbon steel that literally hasn't changed in production methods or heat treatments since the turn of the last century. They gladly pay $125 and up for plain 1095 carbon steel, hardened only to a very soft Rockwell number so they can sharpen them easily. Even at those prices, quality can be spotty on ALL of the models of the most favored brand there, and folks routinely post pictures of poor fit, finish, operation and grinds.
I think with Al Mar there may be a bit of a premium to know that you are getting a well made product, but in line with the pricing of comparable products it isn't that much of a premium. If Al Mar isn't for you or you don't see the value of the knife brand, great. That's why are all here sometimes, and that is to compare notes. But if you don't own one or haven't used one extensively, I think dismissing them out of hand is talking out of your (don't need another chiclet here).
Robert
Pricing = Marketing. Hmmm, I'm thinking that's a bit of a stretch. As an end line user, I feel you're reaching here. There are many variances that can go into costs. Manufacture efficiencies can vary greatly. What it costs one manufacture to build, the same knife would cost much more for another. Vendor relationships and the price for services can have extreme differences in costs for manufacturers. Size and volume can make a dramatic difference in the cost of parts/knives. There are many more variables that have significant impacts, some absorb it better than others. Psychological? Not usually a factor when setting prices.
To equally compare manufacturers and their MSRP's, and call one out as over priced based on your distant understanding is not fair IMO, and in many cases not applicable. As an ELU, you do have a choices though, but a bit more perspective may assist with more understanding.
Is this information or opinion?
I don't feel there is much inflating, again if you're arguing that Manufacturers are gouging based on reputation or because they can. I feel that is a bit of an insult, and again not accurate.
An old joke in the knife manufacturing business.
How do you make a small fortune manufacturing knives?
You start with a large one.
Trust me on this, no manufacturer laughs when it's told.
It's a view your entitled to, but every manufacturer is unique, and they are all produce differently from each other. Maybe something to try and remember in the future prior to putting the boots to a brand.
powernoodle
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No doubt about it.
I appreciate you acknowledging that psychology can be a factor, which was also the point of my post. Look at Busse's pricing strategy (very spendy), and marketing (very hard to get, Pig-ganzas, friendly hot Busse chicks magically appearing on the forum, pig names for the prolific posters, etc.). Every bit of that is psychology. Its intended to make you want a Busse, and its a successfully strategy. As for Al Mar, I don't believe that an Eagle Ultralight, which has AUS8 and G10 like half the other knives on the market, has to cost $120. I believe the pricing structure is at least in part formulated to portray Al Mar as a premium brand. Thats just my opinion, and I could be way off base. But the OP asked why Al Mar knives are so spendy, and its my view that perception/psychology may be part of the calculus. ZT is in the perception business too, in case you haven't looked at your web site recently. It should be noted that Busse, Al Mar and ZT make killer knives too. Thats not at issue. Brand and pricing psychology was what I was advocating.
Its an established principle of microeconomics that one can sell 1) fewer units at higher margins or 2) more units at lower margins to produce the same revenue. I can sell you one cookie for $10, or 10x cookies for $1 each, and either way I end up with $10 in my pocket. The seller of the $10 cookie is hoping that at least one consumer will think the cookie is "better" than the competition because it costs 10x more than the identical $1 cookie. The same can be true with knives and trucks and every other consumer good.
Acknowledging the usage of psychology in pricing (and marketing, etc.) does not disparage Al Mar or Busse or any other brand. Rather, its just a benign fact and something to be aware of. If we aren't, we end up believing that a $435 Umnumzaan peels an apple better than a $40 knife does. Its way more expensive, so it must cut way better too - right?
Now, send me a ZT 0801CF, and I'll keep my mouth shut about your secret pricing strategies from now on.