Why are most survival blades 7'' long?

And in my experience I can take apart a pig or deer faster with a thin 3 1/2" Tomes blade than my Busse or Strider. Try chopping a 12" log with a machete or bowie and I'll use my axe or saw. I'll take the machete in the jungle. Military useage is different than some civie hunter's, hence their need for something that can "be all do all" in a pinch. And no, I didn't just go by what I read.:rolleyes:
 
when I wrote ignorant I was NOT referring to natives, I was referring to his statement, I definitely don't think they are ignorant.
 
DR, wasn't referring to your comment I agree with what you have said. My response was to his calling my statement ignorant,. I've been to several military survival schools both over seas and in the States. Try telling a Negrito in the Phillipines you don't need a big knife or Canopy Level Three in the Northern Training Area in Okinawa. Admittedly those are tropical schools, but in just about every post so far everyone has said they'd prefer a bigger chopper like an axe or saw or tomahawk, whatever. That's why I say a big knife,machete or large chopper, from experience. Just don't like being called ignorant when I've been and done.
 
Fred, Cool stuff, all is clear. It gets hard to pick out which posts are directed towards one you made when it gets to be these kinds of threads, my apologies.:D Sounds like you've had some interesting experiences learning by living.
 
Things always get messed up in these type of threads. People’s definition of survival is different. Short term vs. Long term makes a lot of difference. Military vs. Civilian survival changes the whole equation also. The next statement is not pointed at you Fred; I want that qualified up front. Most military survival training (I said Most) is geared toward combat and evasion. Military survival requirements are totally different and most military guys go by this training.

For me in a non-jungle environment, I like a Puukko/Leuku combination with a 7" folding Sierra Saw. The 7" Leuku provides a good size knife for baton work and light to medium chopping. The saw will gather more firewood quickly with a lot less energy. and the puukko is a wood working machine. It can also cover all the skinning work. The saw blades stay sharp for forever, but if you want to carry extra blades, they only weigh 1 oz. each. The saw with 2 spare blades, Puukko and Leuku with sheaths and diamond sharpener weigh only 23 oz. Most large choppers weigh 22 oz. and with the sheath are usually 33 oz.

My personal preference is to carry 3 lighter tools that will do a better job than one large knife.

Just my opinion.

Geoff
 
It seems like the 7" blade length grew out of the military aspect of the survival knife also being used as a fighting knife. Take the Ka-Bar and the average bayonet as an example. Enough blade to fight and stab with in a fighting situation but still compact enough for everyday chores.

7" seems like the magic number. Anything smaller is classified as a "Hunting" knife and anything larger is classified a chopping knife. I have a few 7" bladed knives and they are my favorites, large enough to do big things and small enough to do little things.

-Jared
J.M. Place Handmade Knives
 
Many good comments. Some failure to play well with others. Seems to me that "Mountain Men" commonly carried what amounts to a butcher knife - long, thin, no guard. Of course, it was backup to a muzzle-loading rifle ("Up to Green River"). Still, they apparently found it filled the "knife" slot. They certainly carried axes and hawks. They were not in jungle. Ken Warner covered this debate pretty throughly in the Practical Book of Knives twenty-five odd years ago.

Good cutting.
 
They did carry a larger knife. I had one at one time and gave it to a friend up in Idaho. I even had a deerskin/trade cloth sheath made for it. It was in surprisingly good shape and sported a stag handle.

I heard, but have nothing to back it up, that they also carried a smaller blade called a patch knife. Any reference to them in the book your referenced? Thanks.
 
Warner was speaking generally about the big vs. small debate. I recall many references to patch knives. The black powder folk out there will know exactly what you mean (a knife to cut off extra cloth from the patch before seating the ball).
 
Son of Chad :

The big knives are heavy ...

Compared to a loaf of bread yes, but not to tomahawks.

Most of them are hard to sharpen and repair with what is available in the Wilds.

No more so than tomahawks, the knife is after all made out of a simiar steel assuming you are doing a fair comparison of quality versions of each.

The tomahawk can be broken down for ease of travel, and the handle can be quickly replaced with a branch.

The fit of head to a handle is a nontrivial task, it is not as similar as just mashing in a stick. To make the lock secure you need dual tapered surfaces. Not to mention the need to have a sound piece of wood as a grip, which has to be very uniform in shape and free of knots. You could of course carve it to shape, but consider the time and effort which is *much* greater than the calories burned in carrying a suitable grip attached to the head in the first place.

As for ease of carry, a big knife (~12" blade) rides easily on the hip. Large machetes and parangs can not be carried so well unless you are fairly tall, but in enviroments which demand such blades (and there are many) the extra effort in carrying them is well appreciated when they are called into use.

The big knives can cost up to hundreds of dollars, and the small knife-tomahawk combination can be gotten for under $50.

This is a very lopsided comparison. You compare the most expensive large knives with the cheapest small knives and tomahawks. You can also get large knives for less than $50 and small knives and tomahawks for >$1000 .

Martindale offers quality large knives for ~$20. Becker is a step up for the traditional bowie shape for those that wish that approach, <$100. The next step up in quality and performance would be Swamp Rat, yes you pay more but you only buy the knife once, it has a life time guarantee. The same can not be said for the $50 tomahawk and small knife.

... they do not have a finger guard which often gets in the way of intricate work

Only if the guard is very large, like on a Pronghorn for example. Even so you then have the advantage of greater security and thus a broader scope of work.

...they have wooden handles which can be replaced in the field

... and blades made out of bone so they can be replaced in similar fashion. You could of course use Micarta or G10 grips and never be concerned about breaking the grip or swelling or rotting.

As for big knives being more limiting than tomahawks, that reverse is true. A tomahawk will only out perform a large knife in cutting very thick woods, wood which outside of dedicated felling (gathering winters wood) is never cut in survivial or general outdoors work. Quite frankly the danger of felling trees increases massively as the tree size grows, not to mention the utility value is much lower (much harder to burn, to move, and to shape).

Green wood, even of small size, 3-4 inches will burn long into the day (even in a very hot fire, and of low quality burning wood like pine), so there is no need to whack down a 12" tree to make a camp fire, nor build a shelter. You don't need to cut down 75' trees to build a leanto. Houses are made using only 4x4" for the thicker beams, there is no need to even go this large for a shelter.

Outside of cutting or splitting such thick wood, the knife has a clear advantage over a tomahawk (which is vastly inferior to a quality axe anyway) and is much better for any utility cutting and leagues ahead for clearing light brush, which is critical for gathering food, insulation for the shelter, supplementary clothing, and bedding materials.

As for natives, look at native large blades such as parangs, goloks, machetes and khukuris to name a few. Consider as well than in many cases natives don't always use what is most efficient, but what is available (monetary restrictions) or what is traditional.

-Cliff
 
Great post , Cliff. What went through my mind when the tomahawk head issue was brought up was that it was used as a weapon also, so I picture the native saying "hold on mister englishman, pioneer, whatever, while I find a suitable haft for my tomahawk head." It makes more sense to have it readily available for use at a moments notice.
 
Yes, it is the weapon nature of tomahawks that make them superior choices to axes. You don't want to be throwing an axe because if the handle breaks (which is likely), trying to fit a new one is very difficult. Jim Aston has a webpage which describes this intriate process in detail.

One of the reasons I like quality larger knives like the Battle Mistress is that they are pretty much indestructible for emergency/survival senarios. It may very well be true that you may be very experienced and skilled and know how to use a very thin blade and wooden handled tomahawk without harm, but consider situations of high stress or injury which may force the tools to be used by possible companions. The situation may not just rely on your abilities when they are their absolute maximum.


-Cliff
 
Cliff, I read with interest your post on khukuris as wood choppers. Nice to know the indigs who have carried them for decades actually know what they are about (hardly a surprise).

To address only one kind of common survival task, have you mesured the difference in effort between cutting wood with a folding pruning saw (e.g., Fiskars) vs. a large knife (as large as you posit - even a big HI AK)?

I have used folding pruning saws as field-expedient trail maintenance tools over the years and cut up some pretty large stuff with minumal effort and lots of control. They zip through smaller stuff.

Not, of course, to say that a saw does all the things a knife can do.
 
So take a Knife and a folding saw. :cool:

Back to topic:

7" blades are good for reaching vital organ meat in enemy soldiers. They can also preform "survival tasks" in a pinch.

Surprising no one recollected that the Air Force "survival" blade is 5". Even comes with a stone so you dont have to "use a field stone.":D (better yet get a DMT 2 sided pocket thingy and enjoy!)

Cliff,

Thanks for the injection of sanity.;)

All terrains, environments, needs, etc. can differ. Its all good. See cliffs posts about "batoning" the Mora for an exaple of what you can do if you HAVE to with a teeny thin blade. A Saw/ GB axe would be better But say you (or some agency) "forgot" that item. Adaptation is key to survival in any situation.
 
thanks for the insight cliff. have any of u uses the TOPS tracker, do u think it is worth the money?
 
What a lively discussion! The one thing we seem to agree on is that one tool is not the end all be all. So the discussion boils down to what are your personal choices. The one key to remember is what you have on your person is what you will have when the chips are down. So in another words when I go on a canoe/atv/bush plane trip here in Alaska I will have my "on person" gear and I will have the "rest in my gear". The "rest of my gear" stuff will include a Ax and a Large Bow saw.If I am supplying my camp especially on winter trips I want the cutting efficency these provide. But when the canoe flips,the ATV gets washed away in a river crossing or the plane crashes what I am wearing is what I have to use. In my case a 7" knife,folding lockback and a Leatherman Wave. These situations happen every year up here and you are going to have a tough time with just a SAK or little Pukko. Akraven
 
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