Why are newbs obsessed with 1095

It's a weird new thing. Thanks to the internet and the "isn't there anything faster than a microwave" generation they figure they can absorb craftsmanship via a youtube video and then they're good to go. Any hint of the word no or idea that years of sweat might be involved is treated as a hate crime.

When I started roadracing motorcycles you could check a couple books out of the library or find a magazine or two but the real knowledge was locked in people's heads. You had to travel to where there were, and convince them to teach you master and apprentice. Like any other skill not everyone has the aptitude to learn and some of those who are further down the path don't have the desire or abilty to teach. For racing it was accepted that transfusions of new blood were good so the older folks would teach the younger ones too a point. It took a long time to move through the steps. Some poeple had natural talent that would let them take leaps forward but what I've seen of that is the naturally talented have a huge Achilles heel. When they do hit a stumbling block they have no mechanism to work around it.

Anyway from reading the posts here it seems that there are a lot of older knife makers who're willing to advise the younger. The traditional master and apprentice working side by side hands on is still the best way to learn a hands on like this so hopefully in the sea of questioning voices there will be enough quality people to keep it alive.
 
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Willie71 said:
New makers think it's the steel type, not the selection of appropriate steel, and proper heat treat that is important. People tell me what their priorities are, and I tell them I think a certain steel would be a good choice.
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:thumbup:

I think among other things, it is this mentality that separates a great knife maker from a good knife maker - at least in my mind. That mentality makes 1095 another option among many great steels - something us newbies could stand to learn!
 
I think that we may need to rotate back to Jeff at Voestalpine Strip about that thicker 15N20 stock. ;)
JTknives said:
Warren I also had to step away from 5160. Not because it's a bad steel but because it's perceived as a beginner steel for back yard heat treat. It's actually a really nice steel as long as you get the good stuff. But I'm moving to 15N20 for its replacement and welding up tripple stacks. But what's weird is more newbs use 1095 then 5160 and 1095 is still looked apon as if it was given to us by God. While 5160 gets left behind and passed over because it's a "beginner" steel.
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3V is NEVER overkill. Thats why you can get it as thin as .048. Steak knives for tough old Golden Corral sirloins. :D
Willie71 said:
It's funny. I never wanted to do this full time, but part time is great for me. I have a great career. Knifemaking isn't profitable. It can be if you grew up on a farm with a machine who, that is well equipped, and you don't have to buy all of the tools to make the processes efficient enough that it's not a time sink. Starting from scratch, you would be lucky to break even in the first five years with the equipment setup costs. You don't need the equipment to make a knife, but you need the equipment to make enough knives to support yourself and your family. One has to overcome the name recognition hurdle as well.

Locally, people seek me out. They know I make a good knife at a good price point. They know I love the metallurgy and customers who want that know where to come. To be on topic, no one has ever asked me to use a specific steel, except one 3v knife. New makers think it's the steel type, not the selection of appropriate steel, and proper heat treat that is important. People tell me what their priorities are, and I tell them I think a certain steel would be a good choice. All say they trust my suggestions. Except the 3c guy. I suggested 80CRV2 to save money because 3v was overkill with his geometry spec, but he wanted 3v.
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I think I'm one of the only newbie NOT a fan of back yard HT. to me that's the single most important thing in knifeaking so why would spend hours and sweat making a knife just to throw it in some gerry rigged forge with my wife's blow dryer and some duct tape? I'd rather send it off to pros with proper equipment and knowledge. Because of this it opens the door to any steel. 1095 happens to be very cheap. But I'd rather get some AEBL or 52100. YMMV
 
rybobales said:
:thumbup:

I think among other things, it is this mentality that separates a great knife maker from a good knife maker - at least in my mind. That mentality makes 1095 another option among many great steels - something us newbies could stand to learn!
Click to expand...

Thanks.:thumbup:. It's working for me, and more importantly, my customers are happy. :)
 
jdm61 said:
3V is NEVER overkill. Thats why you can get it as thin as .048. Steak knives for tough old Golden Corral sirloins. :D
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3/8" knife with a 30deg inclusive Scandi? I think there are plenty of steels that can handle that geometry costing less than 3v. I'm thinking of trying 3v in the kitchen, to see how a very fine edge holds up. :thumbup:
 
Danke42 said:
It's a weird new thing. Thanks to the internet and the "isn't there anything faster than a microwave" generation they figure they can absorb craftsmanship via a youtube video and then they're good to go. Any hint of the word no or idea that years of sweat might be involved is treated as a hate crime.

When I started roadracing motorcycles you could check a couple books out of the library or find a magazine or two but the real knowledge was locked in people's heads. You had to travel to where there were, and convince them to teach you master and apprentice. Like any other skill not everyone has the aptitude to learn and some of those who are further down the path don't have the desire or abilty to teach. For racing it was accepted that transfusions of new blood were good so the older folks would teach the younger ones too a point. It took a long time to move through the steps. Some poeple had natural talent that would let them take leaps forward but what I've seen of that is the naturally talented have a huge Achilles heel. When they do hit a stumbling block they have no mechanism to work around it.

Anyway from reading the posts here it seems that there are a lot of older knife makers who're willing to advise the younger. The traditional master and apprentice working side by side hands on is still the best way to learn a hands on like this so hopefully in the sea of questioning voices there will be enough quality people to keep it alive.
Click to expand...

I used to race motocross, before my knees gave out. I knew the service manager at a local shop. He got me a good deal on parts. In exchange, I am a tinkerer. I had a 1997 CR250. Great motor, crappy suspension tune. I played with the valving over 6months. My buddy had a number of customers unhappy with the suspension, and the aftermarket fixes. When I showed him the valving that worked, his initial impression was 'no way" as it was counterintuitive. He did try it in a customer's bike, who raved about how great his bike worked. He probably used my suspension tune in over 100 bikes. This is like Nathan's D2 heat treat, or the 52100 heat treat Kevin Cashen sorted out. Knifemaker's share a lot of great information that is kept as secrets in other genres.
 
Willie71 said:
This is like Nathan's D2 heat treat, or the 52100 heat treat Kevin Cashen sorted out. Knifemaker's share a lot of great information that is kept as secrets in other genres.
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Im glad someone brought that up..first off we use Kevins heat treat all the time and I always give him credit for that...About three years ago I started a thread about the low temper heat treat of cpm3v that I had been trying. I got the info from Lloyd Harner who had been using it for some time before that..One big name maker who uses that steel got a case of the redass while the rest of us had a good discussion on the topic..
I think that's bad for the craft,thinking like that. There is always a better way if we just look for it..We really need to share and teach when we can..If we don't folks will still be quenching true north and using 10w30 for thier quench..
I remember right here on this forum about 6-7 years ago a smith jumped all over another guy for just asking him how he made his eye in a bar of 1" stock for a tomahawk..My god, its not like that's a trade secret.Its a hot slit.Its just a basic blacksmith technique..Basically accused him of trying to make money off "his" ideas..Yea, "his" idea to hot punch a hole in a piece of steel to stick a handle in;)
Im still kind of amazed that their is guys out there so stingy with information.
 
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True, but 3/8 ANYTHING is arguably overkill without regard to steel type. ;)
Willie71 said:
3/8" knife with a 30deg inclusive Scandi? I think there are plenty of steels that can handle that geometry costing less than 3v. I'm thinking of trying 3v in the kitchen, to see how a very fine edge holds up. :thumbup:
Click to expand...
 
The Cashen story is a funny one. IIRC, he started out trying to untangle the "mythology" (I'm being kinder that he was ;)) of 52100 and in the end, he ended up "discovering" what a small group of folks including Bob Kramer and Jerry Busse, may have already figure out about that steel. One thing that I found interesting about his experiments was that he determined the that the optimum quenchant for the "low temp austenized" 52100 was not his typical go to for deep hardening steels, low temp salts, but "medium-fast" oil.
In the case of 3V, a few people applied what one might call the "Landes logic" to that steel and lo, it worked. It does make you wonder if Bob Dozier uses a similar method for D2?
Kentucky said:
Im glad someone brought that up..first off we use Kevins heat treat all the time and I always give him credit for that...About three years ago I started a thread about the low temper heat treat of cpm3v that I had been trying. I got the info from Lloyd Harner who had been using it for some time before that..One big name maker who uses that steel got a case of the redass over it because he could not understand why anyone would want to try something different like that when there was already an established heat treat for it..
I think that's bad for the craft,thinking like that. There is always a better way if we just look for it..We really need to share and teach when we can..If we don't folks will still be quenching true north and using 10w30 for thier quench..
I remember right here on this forum about 6-7 years ago a smith jumped all over another guy for just asking him how he made his eye in a bar of 1" stock for a tomahawk..My god, its not like that's a trade secret.Its a hot slit.Its just a basic blacksmith technique..Basically accused him of trying to make money off "his" ideas..Yea, "his" idea to hot punch a hole in a piece of steel to stick a handle in;)
Im still kind of amazed that their is guys out there so stingy with information.
Click to expand...
 
We have parks but use McMaster carr medium fast oil, I think its like a 9-11 second oil for 52100..It gets screaming hard, like 66-67 just like Kevin said it would.. Its taken a long while but I think folks are starting to understand that 52100 isn't that hard to treat right without unicorn feathers;)
 
Greenberg Woods said:
MORE CARBON=MORE BETTER

I think a lot of people just think"I need carbon steel, so I need as much carbon as I can get"

Personally I think that's why 1075 is used so much less than 1095
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I still remember what I thought when I started a couple of year ago, and that was exactly my thought pattern. 1095 is just the highest carbon simple steel that's commonly available.
 
"MORE CARBON=MORE BETTER"
Must be why I like 1.2519. 1.15C with W 1.4, Cr 1.3, and V 0.25 to keep it company. heck with blue or white from west side of the ocean, have Aldo stock 1.2519, the Germans will send as much as we want.
scott
 
As much as like Aldo, can't you get it for "cheap" directly from guys like Bestar?
scott.livesey said:
"MORE CARBON=MORE BETTER"
Must be why I like 1.2519. 1.15C with W 1.4, Cr 1.3, and V 0.25 to keep it company. heck with blue or white from west side of the ocean, have Aldo stock 1.2519, the Germans will send as much as we want.
scott
Click to expand...
 
MORE CARBON = MORE BETTER
must mean cast iron with its 2-4% carbon is the best metal for knives.
 
I think a better question is 'why do noobs want to HT their own steel'? If you send it off you can use what ever you like, within reason. I think they might use 1095 purely because they think it's the best steel they can HT themselves.
 
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