Why are they so expencive???

jackknife,

Glad dudes like you are still around. I feel the same way. In fact I have quite a few SAK's and some old Schrade Slips. I have this Benchmade 910 folder that I like (sorta) but whenever I carry it I just can't find anything that it can do that my smaller slips will not handle. I don't stab stuff and don't need a knife for SD so none of that matters to me.

Thanks for bringing this subject up. Maybe if we're lucky Sal (from Spyderco) will pop in and throw in an answer.

-Big Hammer
 
Hi Jackknife,

If the Buck you mentioned has an MSRP of $35., I think that I can safely say it was made in China.

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, drink deep or taste not the Perian Spring".

sal
 
I agree wuth USAF about the value of this thread. I don't know the answer, but Look at 2 things. the Spyderco uk penknife is a slipjoint made with "tactical" materials. It is as expensive as their other offerings. Also, look at any custom maker-their SJ offerings are going to be more expensive, as they do not benefit from economies of scale,and must directly pass on their labor cost. I will add that new patterns, R&D, and learning to work with new materials will add to the cost of any product. once those are established, the cost will come down. For example, in 1997 I bought an integral clip frn aus-8 endura for 50 bucks. Now, they have additional parts (the clip) and better steel, and are still 50 bucks.

Unfortunately, I think that marketing costs factor into the price of a product way more than we'd like to admit.
 
I don't follow the logic of the CNC machining being the reason the knives are so expensive. I started out selling dental equipment many years ago. When ADEC, a well known dental company still made their cabinets the old way, by hand, the cabinets were well built and quite expensive. I remember selling them depending on size for each operatory at 35% markup.

When the comany went to the latest and greatest machines to do the building they had us sales reps and service techs from all over the country come to the plant over a period of time to check it out. We went in small groups. Many of us had been there before to see the way they did things before the upgrade was done. The differences were noticed right away in the sales because they no longer took a month to three months or more to get in stock after the order was placed. They were in the following week or sometimes as long as three weeks after the order in many cases. But the differences were even more profound once we got to the plant.

First off there were not as many employees there anymore. Instead of one cabinet being built in the morning and one in the afternoon 25 could be built before noon. You get the picture. Instead of four men to lift the cabinet panel to place it on the table the machine did it and drilled all 56 holes at the same time in one swipe. What used to take hours was done in seconds. It was the same with the routing out of the panel parts. Done in seconds compared to before when it had to be all done by hand over a period of time.

The delivery time was increased many times over, the quantity being produced was effectively raised by many times enabling them to now compete internationally as well as progress with the times and the prices didn't go up on each cabinet at all. The only negative which is a big one to many people is that many people lost their jobs to the machines. But the company did better stock value wise, grew faster and was able to increase the benefits to the remaining employees. They also saved big on now not having so many employees to insure from what I remember.

STR
 
A product advertising survey was done that at least one major novelty/commodity company paid close attention too. Different packaging sometimes works for this too, 25 % of all the people who buy stuff do it because it's "new". "We just gotta be the first on the block to have one..."
It seems there is a dollar value linked to this, especially with lower volume things.

A new lock design does it for me (still not as good as a balisong though, right Chuck :) )

In the end, if someone asks more for a twin talon lock sharpened crowbar aka Dark Oops, we'll pay :D
 
Volume plays a huge part. Traditional knife makers like Victronix and Buck sell a 1000 knives for every one that Benchmade sells. They probably sell 100,000 for every Strider. If a small company tried to make SAK's they would need to charge $300 a piece.
 
HoB said:
Well, you brought up a few very good points:
1.) Bulk. Because Vic is selling so many knives, producing so many knives, that they can make them a whole lot cheaper. There is a big difference between making 50000 pieces and making 1000 pieces in a typical run. Simply because of the deal with Walmart the Native price dropped by about $10!

2.) How are the parts of a SAK actually made? They are blanked by stamping if I am not mistaken and that includes the blades aswell. Not all materials can be blanked by stamping and depends also on material thickness. Precisely the reason why the typical SAK will not have a 4 mm thick ATS-34 blade with a distal taper. On some Spyderco models not even the liners can be stamped. And G-10, Mircarta and CF require milling and grinding instead of moulding. I would assume that the assembly of the parts is the least of the cost in either case.
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Good point about the numbers. It is true that the more you make, the cheaper you can make it up to a point. But the Swiss are paying shipping, import fees, distributors profit. That puts something made here in America on a more even footing.

About number 2 though. As far as the thickness you mentioned, they can indeed be stamped. The Buck 110 blade has been stamped for decades now with a Niagra punch press. These days it's even easier with the laser and water jet cuters that can profile out heavy steel plate in just a few minutes. Most people who have not worked in the machinist trade have no idea of just how easy some of this has gotten. You like the close tolerances of the Sebanza? No problem, you can make corections in the program to .001 of an inch while you are running the parts. In fact, CNC machines have made it far easier to work to very close spec's than the old mills because of the new technology. And they hold it like never before. As far as the distil taper, thats in the grinding. The new automated grinding machines are just awesome to watch. Both Victorinox and Opinel use fully automated grinders, and the Opinel has a convex blade.

On the couple of high dollar tacticals I have taken apart I have found faint traces of the shear marks on the liners, and the liner lock piece that were not quite all buffed out. On one of them I found punch marks on the inside of the pivot hole that were not quite polished out. I had to use a magnifier, but they were there and I know what I was looking at.

I don't mind a higher price if there is clear sign quality goes with it. That you are really getting something extra for your money. But all too often these days, something will be "in" or cool to have and the marketers in their greed take advantage of the ignorence of the buying public. I don't think most folks really know what they are buying, as far as materials and just how it's made.

I just wonder, if in an age of mediocrity, we let hype get too overblown?
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Jackknife,

If the Buck you mentioned has an MSRP of $35., I think that I can safely say it was made in China.

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, drink deep or taste not the Perian Spring".

sal
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No, the 300 series pocket knives like the cadet and stockmen are made in the new Idaho plant, as is the 110 and 112 lockbacks.
 
I don't mind a higher price if there is clear sign quality goes with it.
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Just curious, what high end tacticals are you talking about? The reason I'm asking is high end tactical usually don't have liner locks, they have integral locks.

Have you ever taken apart a buck Mayo 172? A sebenza? A bradly Alias? An ATR?
 
The Buck 110 can be stamped because it is made from an alloy that is widely sneered at on these forums, 420HC. I have often heard it called crap. They went away from 440C, which people here would call a midrange alloy, because they couldn't blank it with reasonable tool life. Those 110 blades are thicker than your average stockman blade. As you add things like molybdenum and vanadium to your stainless blade alloys the stuff doesn't anneal to a state where it stamps or machines easily. With an S30V blade I would bet that they are using grinders rather than mill cutters to do their bevels. So some of the price inflation comes from alloy inflation.

The blade stock itself is also probably more expensive. They probably get it rolled to their thickness specifications and have to buy it in large quantities. There is only one source for S30V so that jacks up the price. You end up having to carry extra stock on hand at extra load expense. The heat treatment also adds expense. They use some complex cycles and even cryogenic quenching in the process. The price of knives in some ways should track the expense of making tooling dies rather than the price of things that are typically stamped out using the dies.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Jackknife,

If the Buck you mentioned has an MSRP of $35., I think that I can safely say it was made in China.

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, drink deep or taste not the Perian Spring".

sal
Click to expand...

Well you're wrong.

You can get a Buck 110 that's made in the USA for $35 at NGK.
 
On the other hand I have here a made in U.S.A. Buck stockman. With three blades, two backsprings, four bolsters, two handle scales, two piviot pins, and a couple of brass spacers it is a far more complex knife to build, and it even has a decent satin polish.
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I'm not familiar with Buck, but that's not a 110. NGK does have a stockman for $25, but there's no mention of where it is made. Looks like MSRP on the stockman is $43.

You can get a Walmart made in Idaho Buck 110 for $20.
 
From my understanding the new Buck slip joints are all made in China or Japan or something, they are the ones with 440c blades.

Last year and prior they were all made in El Cajon.

MSRP on them has always been under $40 IIRC, the newer imports are even cheaper.
 
jackknife said:
These days it's even easier with the laser and water jet cuters that can profile out heavy steel plate in just a few minutes.
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Just a few minutes are a lifetime in modern manufacturing stamping takes a second at most: that makes 3600 blanks per hour, a few minutes (let's say 3 minutes) for CNCing adds up to about 20 blanks per hour! And as you point out the distal taper is added on a CNC grinder...a differnt machine, adds another step. Jeff essentiall said already all that I would have added.
 
I had the same thoughts as the OP. I recently bought a Boker Trapper.
With the blades, pins bolsters, liners and scales it came to over 20 individual pieces. Granted they were not put together like a Sebenza or Benchmade but they still had to be worked from the original stock shape. This was made in Germany too, not exactly a 3rd world country.

As for CNC designs, I have seen kids mock up a knife on Photoshop in no time at all. I find it hard to believe that given a month of intensive training someone with the ability to use photoshot could not grasp CNC programming. I would also wager that, just like Web pages a lot of the work has been taken out of the actual programming too.

I'm not against anyone making money and people have to have jobs to buy things from other people so that they can live. I am more interested in the costs of production rather than the 'are we getting shafted' part of the post.
 
jackknife said:
No, the 300 series pocket knives like the cadet and stockmen are made in the new Idaho plant, as is the 110 and 112 lockbacks.
Click to expand...

if you say so.

sal
 
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