"Why are you carrying this weapon?"....

Brownie, I know that this has been raised before, but federal law, at 18United States Code (USC)930, says, in part:
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1(one) year, or both
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, but then goes on to say, in its definitions:
(2) The term ``dangerous weapon'' means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2\1/2\ inches in length.
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This specifically defines a folding pocket knife as with a blade of less than 2.5" as not being a "dangerous weapon" as far as carrying such a device into a federal government building is concerned. I note that there have been no changes to this definition since 9/11/2001. This may not have meaning to most of you, but it does for those of us who have reason to come and go from federal offices.

For those wishing to pursue this or any other federal or state law, try this site: http://www.alllaw.com/, click on "Federal Resources", again on "Federal Law Search", and then on "US Code". At this screen, to find 18USC930, enter "18" in the "Title:" box and "930" in the "Section:" box, then click on "Search". Procedures will vary if you do not know the title and section or with varying state and local law codes.
 
Of course each state will have varying laws relative knives [including the feds], the point was that the restrictions [ many or few ] are under the dangerous weapons statutes.

Knives fal under that category not some "tool law".

A certain type of knife or one with a certain blade length may be exempt from the dangerous weapons statute but that goes to prove the exemptions are written under the dangerous weapons laws [ as a rule, and I say that as I have not researched every state so can't say it with absolute certainty.

Steve Harvey:
Better reread it again. Dirks and daggers are described and then the "folders" are mentioned as meeting the description of the dirk and dagger. They are lumped into the same restrictions and included.

So if the folder isn't opened, you are good to go. If it is opened in public, someone freaks and calls the cops, you could be charged as the knife was opened [ meeting the description of an item thus restricted ].

I'm sure it isn't enforced if you are clearly not intending to intimidate another, but just happened to, then again, it's on the books. Open the folder and it meets the criteria of restriction.

Brownie
 
Originally posted by The General
Lifes not so bad! Even though I keep a Large Benza in the pocket also...;)
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When you consider that the safety lock on your Sebenza makes you a criminal, and guilty until you can prove (how I don't know) that you don't intend to stab someone with it, then it seems that life is SO bad. :(
 
I agree with those who advise to never admit that anything is a weapon, but I also advise against getting into semantic arguments with cops (particularly in the presence of a potential weapon). Be aware of your local laws so you can plan around them and argue about them at the appropriate time, but don't expect to enlighten any officer as to the "true meaning" of a statute if he already has an opinion to the contrary.

My tentative plan is to deny that I consider my knife to be a weapon, state that I carry it for normal everyday cutting tasks, and if the cop disagrees with me let him make the call as to whether he confiscates it, charges me or whatever. This immediately followed by me exercising my right to remain silent and taking it up with the DA at some later date.

That's the plan anyway.
 
akjon:

The cop on the street may take it away [ I've had two taken from me in the last 8 years while sitting on stake-outs in my car for hours until someone called the cops to check me out ].

I surrendered the knife each time with no whining about them being legal to the cop at that time. You aren't going to change his mind usually and it can escalate with him arresting for something you say ].

Each time I drove the police station, talked with the chief, had him look up the relalevant annotated laws and call the officer in off the street to give me back my knife.

Now I carry the statute relative dangerous weapons where the knife restrictions reside with me. I plan on showing the officer the statute at the scene at that time. If he still confiscates the knife I now have legal recourse against him as he stole my property [the knife in question not being illegal to carry by any restrictions in the locale I'm in at the time ]. If the knife is not restricted by law and an offcier illegally confiscates it with no other charges brought at that time he has effectively stolen personal property.

If it is restricted it is contraband and he can seize it. If it isn't, he has no right to take it away from me. His ignorance of the laws is not an excuse for violating the law any more than my ignorance is considered a defense for violating any of the laws within my state.

Brownie
 
Now cops just ask if you have anything that might hurt them.

I work nights as a restaurant manager 30 miles from home. On the way
home i am frequently puled over in a small town halfway between here and work. I drive a small car and don't speed. I'm asked where
I'm going and why i am out so late. I have to show my papers. Then
I'm allowed to go home. The Stasi is alive and well in America.
 
Here's one I haven't seen mentioned yet.- "I'm field testing it." As soon as I finish my 2 foot long Bowie knife, I plan to carry it everywhere and chop any opportune target so I can get a feel for it's cutting ability. I also plan to carry it in a makeshift scabbard, and will test several designs to see which makes this big knife most comfortable to carry. Field testing is not illegal in Illinois.



Originally posted by brownie0486
Here's what I found under Cali law.


As we can see below as in excerpt from above, a pocket knife is considered capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon but only when it has been exposed [ open ] and locked. So, lets see, it clearly states the pocketknife is a "stabbing weapon" and NOT a stabbing tool. MY MY MY, what a surprise hey?

Some of you folks really need to pay attention and research the laws as they are written and not attempt to twist the wording to fit your wants. As written, a pocket knife is considered a stabbing weapon. It's there in black and white [ as I knew it would be ]. They aren't considered tools, they are weapons. Play all the semantics you guys want but the law is there for you to read and understand.

There are no dangerous "tool" laws folks, knives fall under dangerous weapons laws. Read anyway you want but the courts will act on the letter of the law not semantics.

Brownie
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Brownie-
I haven't been following along in Blade for a few years, but last I remember, it would seem perhaps you could learn a few things, too.

" As used in this section, a
"dirk" or "dagger" means a knife or other
instrument with or without a handguard that is
capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that
may inflict great bodily injury or death."

Not sure if any new cases have changed things, but the courts decided this wording was so broad (including pens, mechanical pencils, or anything with a sharp point) that surely "intent" to use the object as a stabbing weapon must also be present.
The law says it right there in black and white. Pens are stabbing weapons. Not "stabbing tools". (what was that you were saying about semantics?) Sound stupid? The judges thought so too. That's why they dropped charges against a cable repairman who was carrying a spike bayonet concealed in his jacket. (now if a spike bayonet isn't a "stabbing weapon", then what is?) He used it to poke holes in drywall for running cable. That's why they also pressed charges against a hoodlum for carrying a "dirk or dagger" when they found a box cutter on him. (hardly a stabbing instrument) The crook *intended* to use his blade as a weapon; the repairman did not.

Which brings me to my question- and I'm hoping you can help me out here, Brownie. Here in Illinois, intent is part of the law. My Bowie knife is not illegal to carry (except perhaps gov't buildings or something) *unless* I "intend to use the same unlawfully against another person." Yes, it does fall under the "dangerous weapons" category, but dangerous weapons are not illegal to carry unless you want to unlawfully hurt someone.

Soooooo...... Who's definition of "weapon" do I use? The law classifies it as a legal weapon. But, if a tell an officer I'm carrying a "weapon", will he (or the jury) believe I'm implying I carry it to use against people? Because I suspect most folks' definitiong of "weapon" is about the same as mine. I.E., something used to hurt people. Therin lies the crux. My Bowie is legal to carry, until I tell someone (using the legal definition) it's a dangerous weapon. Thus, I'd prefer to call it something else rather than worry about whose definition this particular LEO is using.

For an even tougher question, notice the law says it's illegal to carry a dangerous weapon with intent to use it *unlawfully* against another person. Got it. No murder. BUT, in Illinois, justified self defense is not illegal. There are plenty of scenerios where I could indeed use this knife against another person perfectly legally. Sooooo.... It would appear that technically it's not illegal to carry a big knife for self defense. (though of course I'd still expect to be arrested if not shot by an ignorant cop)

It is also noteworthy that the word "concealed" does not appear in IL law regarding weapons. If you don't intend to hurt someone with it, they don't care how you carry it. If you DO intend to hurt someone, they don't care how you carry it, either. :D (which is the way it oughtta be IMO)
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
The question of whether a knife is a weapon or tool is irrelevant as the courts, lawmakers, and subsequently the police who enforce the laws on the books consider it a weapon.
<snip> You can call it a tool, deny it is a weapon to the officer on the street, and he'll realize right away the semantics you attempting to use in your answer.
HE knows it is considered a weapon by law. You should also. If you play merry go round with an officer of the law who has for any reason detained you [ threshold inquiry ], he will likely see through the semantics and not appreciate your response. Is that the way to start off with the officer? Feining ignorance that the knife is a tool and not a weapon.

You may use it as a tool, but it is by law, considered a weapon. If you are carrying a knife which meets the guidelines of the jurisdiction you are in at the time of the stop and question, you are not breaking any statutes and have nothing to worry about.

I know from experience that most cops won't know the law and many have been given false information from their peers upon entering the field of police work about what is and isn't illegal.
<snip>
Brownie
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Well, it seems that "the law" has claimed the luxury of playing both sides of the fence on this one. See, they'll call a knife a "weapon" even though it's never harmed a living thing but been used hundreds of times as a tool... BUT... carry a SCREWDRIVER in a "menacing" way and they'll charge you with carrying a WEAPON -- even though we all know why a screwdriver is manufactured and sold first and foremost.

If a person beats another person with a leg from a coffee table, they will charge that attacker with "battery with a deadly weapon." Are coffee-table legs made to be weapons?

I think it is just as viable to claim a knife is a tool, and if you look an officer in the eye as you explain how YOUR knife is a tool and not a weapon -- and continue into an illustration of WHY (i.e. I never use it or think of it as something to harm others with) I think he'd see your logic, unless he's simply out to bust your balls, in which case nothing you say will matter anyway.

---Jeffrey
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
...
Steve Harvey:
Better reread it again. Dirks and daggers are described and then the "folders" are mentioned as meeting the description of the dirk and dagger. They are lumped into the same restrictions and included.

So if the folder isn't opened, you are good to go. If it is opened in public, someone freaks and calls the cops, you could be charged as the knife was opened [ meeting the description of an item thus restricted ].
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:rolleyes: Whatever.

You are almost certainly the only person on the planet who, having just read 12020, believes it is illegal to open a folding knife for use as a tool in the state of California.
 
I didn't say it was illegal to open the folder, orthat I thought it would be illegal, just that once opened it falls under the statute as it is written.

I also mentioned it probably isn't enforced. Be caught scaring another when you open it and the charges could follow however.

Brownie
 
Originally posted by Mr. Bombastic
When you consider that the safety lock on your Sebenza makes you a criminal, and guilty until you can prove (how I don't know) that you don't intend to stab someone with it, then it seems that life is SO bad. :(
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I'm a manager of a computer shop, I use it for work, these are my work trousers... Not going to carry in the pub after all...;)
 
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