Why bowie knives for fighting?

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1. Video below -

[youtube]QJ6PebrVhb4[/youtube]

2. Historical fighter: nothing to take away from Jim Bowie himself but NZ's Gustavus Von Tempsky not only regularly fought and employed the knife in skirmishes with the Maori's in guerilla warfare, he had a more interesting and colorful history. He is well-loved very much in NZ as has another side outside of fighting (adventurer, painter, reporter, etc.)

gustavus-von-tempsky.jpg


http://bowieknifefightsfighters.blogspot.com/2011/04/bowie-knife-fighter-gustavus-von.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustavus_von_Tempsky

Modern interpretation of his knife by Svord.

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3. My thoughts: (yes, I agree it was purpose-built as a fighter)

- Size: Intimidation factor, affords reach/distance
- Mass: Enough heft to sever a limb or cut deeply
- Clip point: Affords penetrating thrust and the "back cut" technique (might have been a later development though)
- Guard: Parrying/trapping/striking/scraping as well as defense for the fingers
- Balance: Personal preference, likely neutral to forward-heavy but depends on one's style, training, etc.
- Materials: Again it depends; those that can afford might've splurged on a custom with a combination of materials and intricate designs, but the grunts and natives most likely made do with common steel, wood/bone/antler for the handles.

From Robert Red Feather's Apache knife fighting website -

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the blade and the point quite simply. blade is straight and the edge rarely goes far below the lower edge of the handle, except for the belly. the point is made cruciform instead of triangular, and it's aligned with the handle. compare it with the utility blade whose blade droops below the center line of the handle, has a more generous belly, and the tip is usually triangular for better sharpening.
 
Thank you.
Nice to know he wasn't just another self appointed ewe tube egg spurt.
 
Ebbtide said:
Thank you.
Nice to know he wasn't just another self appointed ewe tube egg spurt.
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Based on my personal experience as well, I try to wade thru the info/hype/BS myself.

Still, I try not be too attached to "name" or "rep" or "status". It's all about the info, not the person (and there are a lot of egg-head PhD's out there who have nothing but fluff to say IMHO).

If I find the info to sound logical and could be cross-referenced with other bits I've previously gathered, I'll consider it.
 
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CHRISTIN said:
LONG BLADE LENGTH for REACH + CLIP POINT for B - A - C - K - C - U - T = DEADLY EFFICIENCY
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Bowie knife = Rambo knife = the market taking advantage of an avalanche of free media hype. It is not that these forms are without value, but rather that their historical association and functionality have been blown entirely out of proportion. Who usually bought those 1830 bowies? It was the young greenhorn city slicker who was sold a knife with a thin hollow metal handle filed with resin and sawdust and a sheath made of paper with an even thinner leather venere. It was like the majority of those who bought hollow handled survival knives during the 1980s, mostly kids buying junk made in Tiawan or Hong Kong. Neither knife design was invented during the hyped period, the bowie-like blade can be traced back into early history as can the use of hollow handled in knives and swords. Some were made for serious use while others were made to empty the novice's pocket.

n2s
 
I agree, read the book by Bill Bagwell, you'll understand why Bowies were so popular. They were, and ARE THE deadliest, knives in the world. When properly made of course, but still, they are also the most useful, versatile shape out there. I have carried a Western W-49 for over 22 years and it is incredible what that blade will do. I routinely slash through a tree 3" thick with one slice, and the tree falls apart, in 2 pieces,(like in the Samurai games!) It is not even a custom piece, and certainly not up to Mr. Bagwell's standards of knives, yet it does things that are pretty amazing. Try out a good Bowie sometime, and give it a fair test, you may just like them!
 
Let me try to say what has already been posted - but a little differently.

When the "Bowie Knife" was actually widely carried as a sidearm, it did not necessarily look like what most people think of as a "Bowie Knife" more recently.

That consensus of belief arose when carrying a knife as a sidearm became unusual.

Back when it was a common sidearm, the "Bowie" was simply any large, stout knife: guard or guardless, single edge or double; clip or spear or whatever.

It was preferred because a large knife was seen as a more capable weapon than a small knife.

As I recall, the best thinking is that the original "Bowie Knife' looked more like a large French Chef's knife than anything else, and it made holes and cuts in meat very satisfactorily.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Let me try to say what has already been posted - but a little differently.

When the "Bowie Knife" was actually widely carried as a sidearm, it did not necessarily look like what most people think of as a "Bowie Knife" more recently.

That consensus of belief arose when carrying a knife as a sidearm became unusual.

Back when it was a common sidearm, the "Bowie" was simply any large, stout knife: guard or guardless, single edge or double; clip or spear or whatever.

It was preferred because a large knife was seen as a more capable weapon than a small knife.

As I recall, the best thinking is that the original "Bowie Knife' looked more like a large French Chef's knife than anything else, and it made holes and cuts in meat very satisfactorily.
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And easier to tote around than a sword.
Swords were still common and 'the art of the fence' was still taught.

I don't know about the French Chef bit... the only description was "big butcher knife" (those three words) and we don't necessarily know exactly what a big butcher knife might have been. Especially in that witness' eyes.
For all we know it could have been a curved Cimitar
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Wouldn't that mess everything up?
:)
 
Ebbtide said:
I don't know about the French Chef bit... the only description was "big butcher knife" (those three words) and we don't necessarily know exactly what a big butcher knife might have been. Especially in that witness' eyes.
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Actually we do. At that time, butchers knives looked like....today's French chefs knives. (And they looked liked punals and mediterranean daggers)
 
not2sharp said:
Bowie knife = Rambo knife = the market taking advantage of an avalanche of free media hype. It is not that these forms are without value, but rather that their historical association and functionality have been blown entirely out of proportion. Who usually bought those 1830 bowies? It was the young greenhorn city slicker who was sold a knife with a thin hollow metal handle filed with resin and sawdust and a sheath made of paper with an even thinner leather venere. It was like the majority of those who bought hollow handled survival knives during the 1980s, mostly kids buying junk made in Tiawan or Hong Kong. Neither knife design was invented during the hyped period, the bowie-like blade can be traced back into early history as can the use of hollow handled in knives and swords. Some were made for serious use while others were made to empty the novice's pocket.

n2s
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Great post. No self-respecting mall ninja ever wanted Bowie's knife to be a kitchen knife. They wanted awesome and the makers supplied it...regardless of historical fact.

The vast, vast majority of Bowies over the last 180 years sold myth. Just like all the knives today that are for "operators"...same thing.
 
The Marines call the Kabar a Fighting Utility Knife. That’s what the Bowie has always been. A weapon that also served as a camp knife.

Remember the old song?
Frog went a-courting he did ride,
Sword and a pistol by his side…
Bothering with a sword and a pistol makes no sense today. Not even for a frog stupid enough to court a mouse.

Carry a wonder-nine and a few extra magazines, and who needs a sword? On the other hand…Carry a single shoot pistol, and that sword looks pretty good.

In the days of the muzzle loader, when hunting or trekking through the wilderness, a big knife was your sword. It was also your tool. A wood chopper, a short machete, a butcher knife, a draw knife, a froe. It was the same sort of tool the Hudson Bay Camp Knife was, north of the border.

That’s what they used to mean by a hunting knife. It’s certainly what Jim’s brother Rezin meant: The first Bowie knife was made by myself in the parish of Avoyelles, in this state (Louisiana), as a hunting knife, for which purpose, exclusively, it was used for many years. The length of the blade was nine and one-quarters inches, its width one and one-half inches, single edged and not curved. Rezin P. Bowie, Planters Advocate: August 24, 1838.

As for the famous “large butcher knife” description; the language has changed. In Jim’s day, in that context, a butcher knife was a killing knife. Something a dangerous character used to butcher men.

A resemblance to blades used in the shambles was neither implied nor denied.
 
Raymond1000 said:
The Marines call the Kabar a Fighting Utility Knife. That’s what the Bowie has always been. A weapon that also served as a camp knife.

Remember the old song?
Frog went a-courting he did ride,
Sword and a pistol by his side…
Bothering with a sword and a pistol makes no sense today. Not even for a frog stupid enough to court a mouse.

Carry a wonder-nine and a few extra magazines, and who needs a sword? On the other hand…Carry a single shoot pistol, and that sword looks pretty good.
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Aww man, you shoulda quoted The Highwaymen for your song quote!
"I was a highwayman, along the coach roads I did ride
With sword and pistol by my side"

And while I agree with you about the pistol, if I was an "operator"(lol, which I guess would obligate me to carry a Strider?), or someone who was expecting to go into some dangerous environment, I gotta admit I'd still feel more comfortable with a knife at my side...maybe not a big 10 inch Bowie, but something at least, just on that 1 in a million chance that my pistol badly malfunctions or something. Likely? Of course not. I've fired thousands of rounds through my various pistols at the range with the worst problem being an occasional jam(and even that only happened maybe 2-3 times with Walther and once with my Steyr, never with my XDM, SIG, or Beretta) so I know the odds of a serious failure are slim, but still...having a blade for that very slim chance would give me a little more peace of mind even if I never used it. Sure, anyone who knows about modern combat knows using a knife to actually fight with is incredibly rare, but still, it has happened even in modern times...look at that Toloza dude Condor named a knife after...even though he just had a folder, it very likely saved his comrade's life.
 
The Bowie is a fighting knife first, utility second. Years ago when gentlemen carried muzzleloading pistols (...that often misfired), a good knife was indispensable.

Today, our modern hi-cap autoloaders are pretty much zero-defect regarding misfires. But, I will slip my Bagwell HB into my waistband for that extra "Peace of Mind."

That sharpened clip point design on a well balanced and long enough blade (11-12") will inflict deadly backcuts when properly wielded by an individual trained in the utilization of this simple
but deadly effective technique.
 
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