Why bowie knives for fighting?

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Yes, it was originally a purpose built fighting knife. The knife was designed by Resin Bowie in the early 1800's and was an adaptation of several different knife styles. Resin had cut himself skinning a rabbit and thus the idea for the guards which was atypical of western knives at the time. The earliest Bowie was made by Resin for his brother, Jim Bowie, and wasn't much more than a butcher knife with some alterations to make it more useful in a fight (guards, tip, etc.). It came into prominence when Bowie attended a pistol duel and a brawl broke out when both duelists missed and the duel ended in a draw [Edit: aka The Sandbar Fight]. He and another individual (whose name eludes me) got into a knife fight which Bowie won although he was seriously wounded in the fight as well.

The fame for the original Bowie grew from that incident and the knife changed in many ways over the years with different makers putting different twists on their version of the knife, but retaining the name "Bowie Knife" for its prominence and saleability. There were even schools that arose, primarily in the Southwest, that taught students how to properly fight with a Bowie knife.

So, it started out life as a fighting knife and as Jim Bowie gained fame and notoriety as a knife fighter, so grew the fame of the Bowie knife. [Edit: the original hit movie, "The Alamo" starring Richard Widmark as Jim Bowie and the depiction of the Bowie knife therein did quite a lot to enhance the modern impression of the Bowie Knife and bring it back into the attention of the public]

All that said, historians differ in opinion about almost every aspect of the knife from who actually designed the first version to whether the knife Jim used in the post-duel brawl was an actual Bowie knife. So the opinion of others may well differ and "facts" are hard to come by. But I think that the fact that the Bowie was originally designed specifically for fighting and not for hunting/skinning is in little doubt.

What is your source for "cut himself skinning a rabbit"? I've read lot of stories on why he made that first knife and some of them included something about cutting himself stabbing a "wild bull/steer" but never a rabbit before. And why would anyone pick a 9-inch knife to skin a rabbit in the first place?
 
Because it was the knife he had???


The "strongest" reference to Rezin Bowie and a rabbit cleaning incident are in Wikipedia's entry about Rezin Bowie. There is a footnote on the paragraph with the rabbit reference to this book...

Edmondson, J.R. (2000), The Alamo Story-From History to Current Conflicts, Plano, TX: Republic of Texas Press, ISBN 1-55622-678-0

I have not read that book to verify that the rabbit incidence is in that book and that if it is, what ITS source provenance might be.
 
Because it was the knife he had???


The "strongest" reference to Rezin Bowie and a rabbit cleaning incident are in Wikipedia's entry about Rezin Bowie. There is a footnote on the paragraph with the rabbit reference to this book...

Edmondson, J.R. (2000), The Alamo Story-From History to Current Conflicts, Plano, TX: Republic of Texas Press, ISBN 1-55622-678-0

I have not read that book to verify that the rabbit incidence is in that book and that if it is, what ITS source provenance might be.

I've field dressed, skinned and cut up hundreds of rabbits in my life and adding a cross guard to a 9-inch blade would have not been my first thought. How about a smaller knife? :)
 
...And why would anyone pick a 9-inch knife to skin a rabbit in the first place?

I didn't say that, now did I? I said the Bowie was "an adaptation of several different knife styles" and said that the idea for the guard came from cutting himself while skinning a rabbit. I never said it was a 9" knife or that it was a Bowie. The exact words, "Resin had cut himself skinning a rabbit and thus the idea for the guards which was atypical of western knives at the time." I didn't specify the knife he used. I don't know what it was, but I didn't imply or infer any specific knife, just that the idea for the guard came from cutting himself.

Please reread my post. You're putting words in my mouth that I didn't post.

zzyzzogeton (thank you) answers your question regarding source above. A google search will provide other sources. Feel free. :)

[Edit: I also did not claim my post to be the ultimate source, in fact I stated clearly, "All that said, historians differ in opinion about almost every aspect of the knife from who actually designed the first version to whether the knife Jim used in the post-duel brawl was an actual Bowie knife. So the opinion of others may well differ and "facts" are hard to come by. But I think that the fact that the Bowie was originally designed specifically for fighting and not for hunting/skinning is in little doubt."]
 
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Suppose Jim Bowie had been a Viking?

This is from Silverlock, by John Myers Myers.

A skald sings The Ballad of Bowie Gizzardsbane at Heorot, where they are celebrating Beowulf's double monster kill.

Harsh that hearing for Houston the Raven:
Foes had enfeebled the fortress at Bexar,
Leaving it lacking and looted the while
Hordes were sweeping swift on the land,
Hell-bent to crush him. The cunning old prince
Did not, though, despair at danger's onrushing;
Hardy with peril, he held it, perused it,
Reading each rune of it. Reaching the facts,
He thumbed through his thanes and thought of the one
Whose guts and gray matter were grafted most neatly.
"Riders!" he rasped, "to race after Bowie!"
"Bowie," he barked when that bearcat of heroes
Bowed to his loved prince, "Bexar must be ours
Or no one must have it. So hightail, burn leather!
Hold me that fortress or fire it and raze it.
Do what you can or else do what you must."

Fame has its fosterlings, free of the limits
Boxing all others, and Bowie was one of them.
Who has not heard of the holmgang at Natchez?
Fifty were warriors, but he fought the best,
Wielding a long knife, a nonesuch of daggers
Worthy of Wayland. That weapon had chewed
The entrails of dozens. In diverse pitched battles
That thane had been leader; by land and by sea
Winning such treasure that trolls, it is said,
Closed hills out of fear he'd frisk them of silver.
Racing now westward, he rode into Bexar,
Gathered the garrison, gave them his orders:
"Houston the Raven is raising a host;
Time's what he asks while he tempers an army.
Never give up this gate to our land.
Hold this door fast, though death comes against us."

The flood of the foemen flowed up to Bexar,
Beat on the dam braced there to contain it.
But Wyrd has no fosterlngs, favors no clients;
Bowie, the war-wise winner of battles,
Laid out by fever, lost his first combat,
Melting with death. Yet the might of his spirit
Kept a tight grip on the trust he'd been given.
"Buy time, my bucks," he told his companions.
"Be proud of the price; our prince is the gainer."
Bold thanes were with him, thirsty for honor,
Schooled well in battle and skilled with all weapons;
Avid for slaughter there, each against thirty,
They stood to the walls and struck for their chieftains,
Houston and Bowie, the bearcat of heroes.

Twelve days they ravaged the ranks of the foemen.
Tens, though, can't harrow the hundreds forever;
That tide had to turn. Tiredly the thanes
Blocked two wild stormings and bled them to death.
The third had the drive of Thor's mighty hammer,
Roared at the walls and rose to spill over,
Winning the fort. But the foemen must pay.
Heroes were waiting them, hardy at killing,
Shaken no whit, though sure they were lost.
Ten lives for one was the tariff for entry;
And no man got credit. Crushed and split skulls,
Blasted off limbs and lathers of blood
Were the money they soughted and minted themselves --
Worth every ounce of the weregild they asked.

Of every eleven, though, one was a hero
Turned to a corpse there. Cornered and hopeless,
They strove while they yet stood, stabbing and throttling,
Meeting the bear's death, dying while fighting.
Chieftains of prowess, not chary of slaying,
Led and fell with them. Alone by the wall,
Travis, the red-maned, the truest of warriors,
Pierced through the pate and pouring out blood,
Kept death marking time, defied it until
His sword again sank, sucking blood from a foeman.
Content then, he ended. So also died Crockett,
Who shaved with a star and stamped to make earthquakes.
Kimball, the leader of loyal riders,
Bonham whose vow was valor's own hallmark.

Crazed by their losses, the conquerors offered
No truce to cadavers; the corpses were stabbed
In hopes that life's spark would be spared to afford them
Seconds on killing. Then some, taking count,
Bawled out that Bowie was balking them still;
Like weasels in warrens they wound through the fort,
Hunting the hero they hated the most.
Least of the lucky, at last some found him,
Fettered to bed by the fever and dying,
Burnt up and shrunken, a shred of himself.
Gladly they rushed him, but glee became panic.
Up from the grip of the grave, gripping weapons,
Gizzardsbane rose to wreak his last slaughter,
Killing, though killed. Conquered, he won.
In brief is the death lay of Bowie, the leader
Who laid down his life for his lord and ring giver,
Holding the doorway for Houston the Raven,
Pearl among princes, who paid in the sequel;
Never was vassal avenged with more slayings!

The teenage Sam Houston lit out for the territory. He traveled alone through hundreds of miles of wilderness, and was adopted by the Cherokee. Huston's tribal name was Colonneh, The Raven.

Myers describes the Sandbar Fight as a holmgang. That’s exactly right.

A holm was a small island. Two men, or two groups of men, rowed to the island and settled their differences. The winners rowed back.

The sandbar fight was a holmgang if ever I saw one.
 
They are devestating fighting knives, in addition to being very useful for utility things too, big knives get the job done better:D Also theres some tradition involved being that the bowie knife has so much history in the US, I will take a bowie any day over any other kind of fixed blade.
 
Hello:

In answer to the original question, the modern fighting Bowie (as opposed to a utility or camp Bowie) design as executed by smiths like Bagwell, Lamey etc... are purpose built for dismembering another person or attacking animal. They aren't balanced, designed or intended for any utility purpose although like any knife they can be used as such. Not all Bowies are created equal and if you pick up one made by someone knowledgable in its intended purpose and another simply made to look the part, the difference is immediately apparent. They simply feel different in the hand. This isn't to say they aren't both good knives, just that the maker might not have the background to know what a fighting knife needs to do as opposed to a well made knife.

The feature set on a fighting bowie (distal taper, long fully sharpened clip, proper balance and heft, guard and or Spanish notch if such is intended to be utilized) is rather unique in that the combination creates a jack of all trades fighter. Very good at snap cuts, back cuts, heavy cuts, picking stabs, full thrusts, amputation etc... Also, it is concealable depending on your mode of dress and willingness to modify your behaviors and bear mild discomfort to accommodate it.

I believe the Bowie as a fighter has continuously been present in American culture since it came to prominence. However, the modern interest in American and Asian weapon fighting by both the professional and the hobbyist has made the information more accessible and variety of choices much greater. While there is mythology and popular culture at play here, usr of the big steel by those who are serious about it is definitely advantageous IMHO.

Rich
 
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Beowolf had one too ???

If it's still available look up A.G.Russell's thread about the Bowie.He knows more than all of us about knives.
The Bowie knife was designed as a heay duty hunting/camping knife . My custom one is called a hunting/camping knife . There is documentation for the original !!! Like so many things the myth quickly overtakes the reality. Sorry to disappoiny you all !
 
Beowolf had one too ???

If it's still available look up A.G.Russell's thread about the Bowie.He knows more than all of us about knives.
The Bowie knife was designed as a heay duty hunting/camping knife . My custom one is called a hunting/camping knife . There is documentation for the original !!! Like so many things the myth quickly overtakes the reality. Sorry to disappoiny you all !

I agree. There's a reason that knives like the hudson bay were invented. IMO it took the place of a hatchet and a butcher knife. I see the advantages of a big knife in certain terrains and circumstances today so I don't see why it would be any different back then. Heck, even this argument of how useful bowies are has been going on from Nessmuk's day and we still argue on the interwebs about them. I think there's two types, fighters and camp knives.
 
The question was why are Bowies popular as fighters. I'm certainly not arguing their history. However modern fighting Bowies (I agree at least 2 types) are good at what they do for their unique combination of features.

Rich
 
Yep, specifically by name:

Sec 46.01 Definitions

(6) “Illegal Knife” means a:

(A) knife with a blade over five and one half inches;

(B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being thrown;

(C) dagger including but not limited to a dirk, stiletto, and poniard;

(D) bowie knife;



There is a specific definition for a Bowie by Texas law in Mireles v. State, 192 S.W. 241 (Tex. Crim. App. 1917) A knife in a scabbard with a blade nine inches long and a handle four or five inches long described as a butcher knife was embraced in the term “bowie knife” as defined by the Penal Code.

The Butcher knife part is where I feel the "Bowie" knife evolved from, as in Bu-ee Not Bow-ie like the British rock star, came from a large butcher & camp knife that you could take apart a Buffalo or steer with, split some wood, defend yourself against robbers and some Comanche raiders and kill someone with if he pissed you off while you were drinking whiskey!
 
Original "Bowie" knives did not fall into any particular pattern and included large daggers and knives best described as "serious" French chef's knives.
 
The knives Bowie carried were fighting knives. That's why they are popular as fighting knives....because they are fighting knives.

Pretty much this ^. More than being any status symbol, it was one of those form follows function things. Unless you were an officer in the military and in uniform I don't think carrying a sword was practical or a common part of daily dress and equipage.

The shorter Bowie was easier to carry and conceal under a coat, more reliable than single shot pistols of the day, quicker to get into play and more deadly in close hand to hand combat.
I usually keep an AR or a pistol next to the bed at night but I've also turned in with nothing more than a Trail Master Bowie on the bedside table. May sound crazy as far as dealing with an intruder in the dark but I feel as secure as if it were my .45.

May be harder to explain to a Grand Jury though, intruders stabbed and disemboweled in homeowner's house.
 
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Historically, Bowie knives were always Fighters. They were never meant as camp knives. Historical, at least in the west, most woods work fell to axes, and such, and yes, while there were things like HB Camp knives, Dags, etc.... They were marketed even back then, as separate types of knives. Michael Price and Will and Finck made what they termed brush knives, they are shaped and edged differently than Bowie knives.

Collins and Co, one of the biggest edge tool makers in the US during the late 1800's, understood this and had separate lines for real fighting Bowies and Bowie Style Machetes / Cutachas like their #17 and #18 patterns, because they understood that they weren't true Bowies, etc....

A London Style Hunter isn't a Bowie, a Hirschfanger isn't a Bowie, a short Artillery sword isn't a Bowie, a Saufanger isn't a Bowie, A Cutacha is a Bowie, a Waidblatt isn't a Bowie, etc...., etc.... even though they may superficially look like one in certain designs. And a Bowie, historically, isn't a Camp knife, even though they can be pressed into service successfully sometimes a such.

They were always first designed as Fighting Knives, anyone that doesn't agree with this is simply working off of a modern definition, that lumps lots of things under it.

As to why a Bowie for fighting? Simple, guns weren't perfected, and a large well designed knife is always useful for battles big and small.
 
I think also, genetics to some extent came into play. Most of the spearpoint of westward expansion was made up of Scots-Irish, which included the Boones, Crocketts and Bowies, all of which came from a knife and swordsman warrior culture. The Bowie was just a natural extension, more evolution of an instinct than a learned discovery.

The first handguns were novelties, more trouble to load and maintain than they were worth carrying before anyone had them figured out much less refined into serious weapons. Sam Colt almost went out of business with his five shot gadget, the revolving repeating gun, and would have if it hadn't caught the attention of a young Texas Ranger named Sam Walker who recognized a short repeating arm could be used while on a running horse, the only answer to their up till then deadly nemesis, the horse warrior Comanche armed with his repeating short bow.

But if you look at early photos of Rangers carrying their newly issued Walker Colts you still see in their belts large Bowies. In an early photo of the contract Indian killer and Texas Ranger William "Bigfoot" Wallace, he sits with his Winchester and a huge butcher knife looking Bowie in his belt. If I lived here where I live now 160-70 years ago in what was once Comancheria my EDC definitely would have been a large Bowie.
 
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Beowolf had one too ???

If it's still available look up A.G.Russell's thread about the Bowie.He knows more than all of us about knives.
The Bowie knife was designed as a heay duty hunting/camping knife . My custom one is called a hunting/camping knife . There is documentation for the original !!! Like so many things the myth quickly overtakes the reality. Sorry to disappoiny you all !

Mete, do you have a link to that A.G. Russell thread? I can’t find it.
 
Mete, do you have a link to that A.G. Russell thread? I can’t find it.

I looked, and it doesn't seem to be here anymore. A.G. never agreed that the knife was meant as an all purpose knife, at least in the beginning. I'm sure when A.G. sees this, he'll straighten things out. What A.G. , and many others hold though, is the belief that the Edwin Forrest knife is the closest to what is the original Bowie pattern -

edwin_forrest.jpg
.

That knife does seem to have the best reportable trackable lineage of the early Bowie, from Bowie to Edwin Forrest to much later, Bill Williamson. It also jives well with knives that Rezin Bowie (the real Bowie behind the design) was known to commission as gifts, e.g. , the Searles knife, and similar -

Rb-knife.jpg
.

Schively made for Rezin -

schivelyperkins.jpg
.
 
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