Why buff knives?

It's possible, but if the direction of scratches on the edge was so critical, why don't we hone lengthwise? :)

Honing is only the edge, Mr. Fowler only indicated that it increased the strength of the blade laterally. So this effect is useful for the overall structural integrity of the blade, not the edge specifically.

Unfortunately I can only give you reasons behind why buffing lengthwise would be beneficial, I don't have any data about it. To be honest, I would've guessed that the effect would've been almost negligible.


Destrall: Your explanation is a good one, easy to understand and more than adequate!

Thanks, to be honest, I know more about fracture mechanics than I do about the effects of buffing.


ok, so that applies to propellor blades ( without spending $150 yet to read the book), how does that apply to knife blades? How much of an increase in streingth does a mirror surface finish provide over other finishes?

Both are metals that can suffer from fatigue damage. Every time you use a knife you're applying a load to the steel. Although this load is significantly below the yield strength of the material, given enough loading cycles the metal can suffer from a brittle failure at a stress that is often lower than yield strength.

The effect is much more dramatic in propellor blades that go through many loading cycles at a time than in a knife that may only get used every few hours, or days depending on how much you use a it.

In fatigue the effects of small imperfections in the material are much more evident. I would imagine in the usual every day carry this would be negligible, but in a blade used in a factory all day this might be worth some serious consideration.


Once again, sorry I can't produce any empirical data to look at. Most of this information is out of a Materials text book by Young, et al, if I remember correctly.
 
I polish all of my blades length wise because I have found that polishing the blades before installing the handle or guard much easier that way and best of all the blade can be screwed on a scrap piece of wood to make hanging on to it easier.

On product I make are kosher slaughtering knives, the smaller of which are 1 1/2" wide 5" blade and 1/16" at the spine. Traditionally these knives are entirely flat ground from spine to a zero edge thus making the blade edge very flexible. If these blades have any grind or polishing lines running at right angles to the edge they will eventually edge crack as they are sharpened every day. A knife with a stress crack is deemed to be non Kosher and every animal killed that day will therefor be considered non Kosher and must be sold as grocery store chicken. It can cause the slaughter house tens of thousands of dollars in lost revenue just for one stress crack.

In this market failure has a significant financial impact but in the bush the impact of a knife failing through a stress crack can have greater significance.

George
 
Honing is only the edge, Mr. Fowler only indicated that it increased the strength of the blade laterally. So this effect is useful for the overall structural integrity of the blade, not the edge specifically.

Unfortunately I can only give you reasons behind why buffing lengthwise would be beneficial, I don't have any data about it. To be honest, I would've guessed that the effect would've been almost negligible.




Thanks, to be honest, I know more about fracture mechanics than I do about the effects of buffing.




Both are metals that can suffer from fatigue damage. Every time you use a knife you're applying a load to the steel. Although this load is significantly below the yield strength of the material, given enough loading cycles the metal can suffer from a brittle failure at a stress that is often lower than yield strength.

The effect is much more dramatic in propellor blades that go through many loading cycles at a time than in a knife that may only get used every few hours, or days depending on how much you use a it.

In fatigue the effects of small imperfections in the material are much more evident. I would imagine in the usual every day carry this would be negligible, but in a blade used in a factory all day this might be worth some serious consideration.


Once again, sorry I can't produce any empirical data to look at. Most of this information is out of a Materials text book by Young, et al, if I remember correctly.

so-once again without reading the book, if the effect of a mirror polished blade on it's streingth is almost negligble then it's use is for corrosion resistance and asthetics ?
 
so-once again without reading the book, if the effect of a mirror polished blade on it's streingth is almost negligble then it's use is for corrosion resistance and asthetics ?
The effect on a blade's strength may not be negligible, that was just my guess for the average person using a knife.

Also, just based on the title, my guess is that book deals almost exclusively with the fatigue issue in metals, so I doubt it will answer those questions for you. Hopefully Mr. Fowler will correct me if this is not the case.

For the average person (customers), corrosion resistance, aesthetics, and ease of cleaning are frequently pretty important. Keep in mind that for a customer there's not much of a downside to a mirror finish, unless they're planning on concealing their open blade.

From our point of view, there's the added danger of the buffer, added time spent, and we usually take good care of our blades so added corrosion resistance isn't that important.

I can see how from the maker's point of view the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, but that's not necessarily the case from a customer's point of view.
 
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Honing is only the edge, Mr. Fowler only indicated that it increased the strength of the blade laterally. So this effect is useful for the overall structural integrity of the blade, not the edge specifically.

I probably should have been more explanatory in my positing....

If buffing lengthwise can help reduce fatigue on a macro level and assist in preventing fracture after repeated stress, wouldn't it also stand to reason that it would help on the micro level and help in edge stability? In any event, mine was conjectured comment only added to set the stage for my query regarding specific research citations vs. anecdotal evidence.....I thought the smiley conveyed the tongue-in-cheek manner of the comment, but I suppose I was wrong and I really need to just be far more descriptive and complete in my commentary in the future.

Also, thanks to Mr. Fowler for the citation. I'll have to see if I can locate a copy of the cited text that's in my price range. Maybe my local library system has a copy.

-d
 
One product I make are kosher slaughtering knives

George, please excuse this Alabama Boy's ignorance, but can you shed a little light on what constitutes a "Kosher" knife? I can understand that a cracked edge or blade might violate Kosher slaughtering guidelines, but what makes it a Kosher blade to begin with?

Another question........ I see on your website that you use a lot of 440C. Where, if you don't mind, are you getting 440C in 1/16" thickness?

Last question........ If you are using 1/16", are you grinding the bevel after heat treat in order to reduce the chance of warping?

Sorry for the de-rail on the thread, but inquiring minds have to know.

Robert
 
I learned a great deal from the book in the above post and much more when I started checking into the refferences cited. It is virtually a wealth of information and once you read it a few times you will laugh at many of the designs offered today - wrecks waiting to happen!

The mention of Kosher blades is a good example, these knives have to be right. Each knife is made for a specific purpose, some are for art, some for use. If use is your goal, it is up to you to develop your knives for their intended purpose.

The High Endurance Performance Blade is not the result of one single event, but an understanding of the many variables that contribute to our (your) final product. It all starts with your selection of steel, your methods of forging and heat treat, your development of heat treating methods, grinding, buffing and much more and it all comes to be through your personal testing of blades you have developed in your shop.

Each of us learns through study and exhaustive testing of what we make, there are no shortcuts.
 
Honing is only the edge, Mr. Fowler only indicated that it increased the strength of the blade laterally. So this effect is useful for the overall structural integrity of the blade, not the edge specifically.

Unfortunately I can only give you reasons behind why buffing lengthwise would be beneficial, I don't have any data about it. To be honest, I would've guessed that the effect would've been almost negligible.




Thanks, to be honest, I know more about fracture mechanics than I do about the effects of buffing.

Both are metals that can suffer from fatigue damage. Every time you use a knife you're applying a load to the steel. Although this load is significantly below the yield strength of the material, given enough loading cycles the metal can suffer from a brittle failure at a stress that is often lower than yield strength.

The effect is much more dramatic in propellor blades that go through many loading cycles at a time than in a knife that may only get used every few hours, or days depending on how much you use a it.

In fatigue the effects of small imperfections in the material are much more evident. I would imagine in the usual every day carry this would be negligible, but in a blade used in a factory all day this might be worth some serious consideration.


Once again, sorry I can't produce any empirical data to look at. Most of this information is out of a Materials text book by Young, et al, if I remember correctly.
Also, knives rarely have to deal with the long term effects of cavitation.;)
 
For me, my buffer has become a great place to hang my slightly used belts. I do all my finishing by hand, both steel and handle. Now I might clean off the buffer if I really want a super high polish on my handles but I don't touch the blades. I won't even touch the cavitation and stresses put on propellers used to push 15,000+ ton ships and subs. The amount of force applied to these surfaces are so much greater than what would be applied to a knife it isn't even comparable. I just have found I get a more consistent, aesthetically pleasing surface when I do it by hand. Not to mention a mirror polish is a scratch waiting to happen.
 
Also, knives rarely have to deal with the long term effects of cavitation.;)

Hah, can't say I know much about cavitation on airplanes, but I know a thing or two about cavitation in pumps. It would be a pain having to worry about the NPSH (available) of my knives. :rolleyes:

Deker, sorry for the misunderstanding, I hope you didn't take any part of my post offensively, especially since I didn't mean for it to be.
 
If you are really worried about fatigue cycles make your knife out of rotor grade triple melt 718 :D

That stuff has to endure 30,000-40,000 duty cycles (engine ignition and start, takeoff, flight, landing, taxiing is one duty cycle) at 1800 plus degrees f at a tensile load in excess of 5 tons per square inch without deformation or failure.

OK I'm being a smarta$$, it wouldn't hold an edge the way steel would at room temperature, but since we got on the subject of ship props and aerospace components.

Seriously, I find it hard to believe since I deal with material testing for aerospace as a day job that anyone has a test setup sensitive enough to reliably quantify any ACTUAL difference in strength at even a 15 micron polish (3 micron is a mirror polish on hardened steel) run lengthwise versus crosswise on an identically heat treated piece of steel from the same position in a billet of approximately the same sectional profile as a knife blade.
Airplane components and knives are both made of metal, I work making both on a daily basis. Apples and oranges are both fruits.

-Page
 
It is no coincidence that both buffing and hand rubbing of blades are done lengthwise, why was this style adopted....because both are proven over a long time.

As to Kosher knives....they are a specified shape and style which must be followed for the kosher slaughtering trade as well as method of slaughter, the related food inspections and proceedures to remove blood from the carcass of the animal. If any deviations such as nicks in the blade edge are found the process has not been followed properly and the resulting meat is then not Kosher and must not be passed off to the public as Kosher approved.

I purchase 440C in 1/16" thickness from my local supplier and grind the knife to almost a full razor edge before heat treating then will spend up to an hour later improving this edge until it is almost up to Kosher standads.....no rabbi will accept a blade as sharp enough without spending at least an hour more on improving the edge. These blades are sharp enough to shave the ridges off your finger tip without drawing blood.

For those of you that don't know I have been a commercial metal polisher for over 20 years working in the sanitary and architectural trades primarily on stainless steel. These finishes range from 3 microns to 26 microns depending on use so it is not surprizing that I would polish my blades to 3 micron or better instead of hand rubbing.

George
 
It is no coincidence that both buffing and hand rubbing of blades are done lengthwise, why was this style adopted....because both are proven over a long time.

As to Kosher knives....they are a specified shape and style which must be followed for the kosher slaughtering trade as well as method of slaughter, the related food inspections and proceedures to remove blood from the carcass of the animal. If any deviations such as nicks in the blade edge are found the process has not been followed properly and the resulting meat is then not Kosher and must not be passed off to the public as Kosher approved.

I purchase 440C in 1/16" thickness from my local supplier and grind the knife to almost a full razor edge before heat treating then will spend up to an hour later improving this edge until it is almost up to Kosher standads.....no rabbi will accept a blade as sharp enough without spending at least an hour more on improving the edge. These blades are sharp enough to shave the ridges off your finger tip without drawing blood.

For those of you that don't know I have been a commercial metal polisher for over 20 years working in the sanitary and architectural trades primarily on stainless steel. These finishes range from 3 microns to 26 microns depending on use so it is not surprizing that I would polish my blades to 3 micron or better instead of hand rubbing.

George
Very interesting stuff, George. Just out of curiosity, I know that kosher knives have not always been stainless. Do the local health codes require that they be?
 
It is no coincidence that both buffing and hand rubbing of blades are done lengthwise, why was this style adopted....because both are proven over a long time.

As to Kosher knives....they are a specified shape and style which must be followed for the kosher slaughtering trade as well as method of slaughter, the related food inspections and proceedures to remove blood from the carcass of the animal. If any deviations such as nicks in the blade edge are found the process has not been followed properly and the resulting meat is then not Kosher and must not be passed off to the public as Kosher approved.

I purchase 440C in 1/16" thickness from my local supplier and grind the knife to almost a full razor edge before heat treating then will spend up to an hour later improving this edge until it is almost up to Kosher standads.....no rabbi will accept a blade as sharp enough without spending at least an hour more on improving the edge. These blades are sharp enough to shave the ridges off your finger tip without drawing blood.

For those of you that don't know I have been a commercial metal polisher for over 20 years working in the sanitary and architectural trades primarily on stainless steel. These finishes range from 3 microns to 26 microns depending on use so it is not surprizing that I would polish my blades to 3 micron or better instead of hand rubbing.

George

Thank you sir. I now have a better understanding.

Robert
 
Comparing airplane propellors to knife blades is like comparing the ditch in front of my house to the Grand Canyon. There is a world of difference between the two. Is anyone actually going to come up with empirical evidence showing that sanding or buffing a knife blade lengthwise vs. perpendicular has ANY effect at all on its strength?!? Heck, employing that kind of "science", we should all make blades with spines like an I-beam, clearly that's much stronger!

With all due respect, I'm in the camp that views buffing as an aesthetic choice, and one that increases corrosion-resistance. That's it.
 
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Comparing airplane propellors to knife blades is like comparing the ditch in front of my house to the Grand Canyon. There is a world of difference between the two. Is anyone actually going to come up with empirical evidence showing that sanding or buffing a knife blade lengthwise vs. perpendicular has ANY effect at all on its strength?!? Heck, employing that kind of "science", we should all make blades with spines like an I-beam, clearly that's much stronger!

With all due respect, I'm in the camp that views buffing as an aesthetic choice, and one that increases corrosion-resistance. That's it.

Comparing airplane propellors to knife blades is actually a pretty good comparison. The propellor blades are frequently shaped like unsharpened knives (convex ground), albeit more symmetrical. These blades chop the air essentially, which would correspond to normal cutting of a knife blade. Additionally they have a force exerted on them perpendicular to the plane of rotation of the blades, which would correspond to lateral loads on a knife (using it like a pry bar essentially).

As for your analogy, assuming your ditch was formed via natural means, then the grand canyon and it have a fair amount in common. Both were likely formed by erosion from a body of water passing through it. There are some differences, such as what the surrounding land is made of and the amount of water flow, but the underlying process is the same. The different circumstances don't change the mechanism that creates the ditch, they just change the speed and degree to which it occurs. You could think of these different circumstances as material properties and degree of use in the propellor to knife comparison.

Now if the ditch was man made then your analogy is completely invalid, since you're then comparing a natural process to a man made process, whereas both propellor and knife are man made.

If you're looking for empirical evidence of this effect in just a knife blade, then you aren't likely to find it. However, my guess is that you can find it with respect to laboratory test specimens using steel. You just have to apply the lab findings to your particular use of the materials.

If you had said that you believe that the effect is negligible and not worth the effort, then I would've agreed with you, but you're implying there is absolutely no effect, with no proof what-so-ever.

I-beams aren't stronger, they're more efficient at resisting a bending moment in one direction given their weight. Not to mention, fullers are frequently used on swords to reduce weight without drastically reducing the ability of the blade to withstand a blow.

I've found an academic paper detailing the effects of surface roughness, grain orientation, and residual stresses on the fatigue limit in 304 stainless steel. Modelling the effects of surface finish on fatigue limit in austenitic stainless steels by Kuroda and Marrow. It won't give you exactly the proof you're looking for, but the cited resources should give you a great place to find the proof.

So my question for you is, where is your proof that it doesn't have an effect? I've cited tons of reasons and theory behind why it does have an effect and all I've heard to the contrary is stuff like "No I don't think it has an effect."
 
JDM

No Kosher knives have not always been stainless but given the working conditions (wet) and the regular inspection by a senior rabbi it is concievable that after experimenting with stainless blades a non stainless blade showing signs of corrosion would run the risk of being rejected outright.

Economics would then make the decision to change to stainless if it were available.

James

There is proof that in thin sections scratches at a right angle to the cutting edge can become the starting point for stress cracks.

George
 
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