Why buff knives?

It is simply fitting of the times that younger people question experienced artisans knowledge. I, myself used to do it. As I got older, I realized there was usually something to those old guys' comments.
Now that I am becoming one of them, I can say that experience is a wonderful teacher, and it behooves us all to garner as much insight from our elders as possible!
 
Bill DeShivs said:
It is simply fitting of the times that younger people question experienced artisans knowledge. I, myself used to do it. As I got older, I realized there was usually something to those old guys' comments.
Now that I am becoming one of them, I can say that experience is a wonderful teacher, and it behooves us all to garner as much insight from our elders as possible!
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one think i try to make sure as i get older is to not close my eyes to new thoughts and to make sure that i have not just settled on my old train of thought

i like testing new experiences vs old thoughts and i also push the new makers to find problems in my old processes to make sure to keep me on my toes

and last but not least i share all i can free of charge (but i might look at things differently if i was selling DVDs )

but hey thats just me
 
Ed Fowler said:
Destral: I located the book you recommended for sale on Abe Books. Prices ranged from $25.00 to $218.00. I ordered a clean copy for $33.00, it is on the way. I look forward to it and thank you for the reference.
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That's a lot less than I paid for it, so I'd say that's a good deal. Hopefully you'll get at least as much out of it as I did.

Also, you're welcome to call me Kevin. I usually stick with calling people by their polite titles first, seeing as I'm usually at minimum half the age of most established knifemakers.
 
james terrio said:
I would still love to see test data on this. No pissing match needed :) I will wager one of my own handmade knives that all other factors being equal, the direction of buffing or hand-sanding will make a difference measured in tenths of a percent or less, as far as how quickly the blade fails.
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I can't help but notice that my humble wager has garnered no responses at all. Frankly, this disappoints me.

I again apologize for my arrogance in posting such strong language originally; it was imprudent of me to be disrespectful. Regardless, I stand by my position and will honor my bet. Not as a matter of personal pride, but as a means of increasing my own knowledge of knifemaking.

I walk and study in the shadows of men who've worked very hard to bring us to a point where we have extremely high expectations of handmade cutlery. Today, there exists a well-educated "class" of blade aficionados that extends far beyond the warrior elite and the fabulously wealthy. More than ever before in human history, our standards are demanding to say the least, and we refuse to accept anything less than the very best. We truly are blessed with the opportunity to debate seemingly trivial details in the pursuit of excellence.

I sincerely want to know if buffing or sanding direction has a measurable impact on the strength and/or toughness of a knife. I only make this wager in the interest of seeing this unfortunately-contentious argument come to an end. I have no particular dog in this fight, no reputation to uphold, no DVDs to sell.

If I'm proven wrong, I will have learned a great lesson. If I'm proven right, I don't see any harm to the craft. If no one who espouses these theories is willing or able to test them, I will be saddened. But none of that will stop any of us from making and/or appreciating the finest knives that have ever been available.

Sincerely,

James
 
What works for me in my shop with my steel, methods and design may or may not work for you. I suggest that you do as we have done and test some of your knives and see what happens. Then you will know if it is worth it for you with your steel, methods and design.

When I built my shop I buried several 5 gallon buckets of blades that had been virtually destroyed in testing. We continue to test blades to destruction and I suggest that if you want to know you need to test a few of your knives. Your tests may or may not be relevant for others working in their shops.

The abs allows a student at their school to test a blade for performance that they have made at the school, if it passes they will not have to performance test another knife for their journeyman stamp. I feel this is a serious error, it is one thing to test a knife that was developed under the watchful eye of an instructor using materials at the school and quite another to make one in your shop with your materials.

No matter what information is mentioned here it will mean nothing unless you test on your own.
 
Kevin: I just received a copy of the book you recommend, "The Science and Technology of Civil Engineering Materials.
I have only had a few hours to spend reading, still I find the information is absolutely more than worthwhile reading. Most importantly, it is provided me with a new language to explain much of what I feel are properties of steel and knives.
Thank You Sir for the reference!
Ed
 
Ed,
I'm glad to hear you're getting a lot out of it. It is interesting how you change the way you look at terminology after you read a book that focuses on material sciences. People use words like strength and toughness without having the faintest clue what their technical definitions are.

I'll be sure to let you know if I come across any other books that are as useful as that one.

Kevin
 
Still no takers on this very simple challenge, just changing the subject.

My wager has nothing to do with my shop, preferred materials/techniques or anyone else's, I just want to know if buffing or hand-sanding in a particular direction has any measurable impact on the strength and/or toughness of any given steel/blade. What part of "all other factors being equal" was misunderstood?

I didn't make the claim. I'm only asking to see it proven. And it's becoming clear that no one is willing to even try to prove it.
 
for the love of god if you are blaming what way you you buffed a blade as to why it failed you are a nut case
and if a blade is broke and you are a maker that did thier work "right" i ll bett you any and every dam day its not the buffing or hell the sanding scratches that you put on the blade that is the problem as when you get to that level of stress that its all about the working of the steel and HT and any other other stressers in the steel
 
James,
We've said a number of times that we don't have the empirical evidence you want. We're not changing the subject, just talking about a reference I brought up earlier. Would you like us to put that we still don't have the evidence in all of our posts?

If the challenge is so simple, do it yourself. Your ignorance doesn't have any effect on how my blades turn out, so why should Ed or I do all the work? I'm a full time GA Tech student and Ed is a full time maker, do you really think either of us has tons of time to spend just so you don't have to?


butcher_block said:
for the love of god if you are blaming what way you you buffed a blade as to why it failed you are a nut case
and if a blade is broke and you are a maker that did thier work "right" i ll bett you any and every dam day its not the buffing or hell the sanding scratches that you put on the blade that is the problem as when you get to that level of stress that its all about the working of the steel and HT and any other other stressers in the steel
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Nobody is blaming a specific knife failure on buffing or sanding scratches. However we are saying that, ceteris paribus, the blade with longitudinal scratches will out last one with transverse scratches. I've explained my thoughts on this and reasonings for why in many of my previous posts so I am not going to repeat them in this post.
 
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