Why buy a handmade that is not really a made by hand?

Stihl,
Would you call a knife that was commercially available as a kit, that was put together by a custom maker and sold as a handmade knife?

How about a sword also purchased comercially, taken apart, altered, then re-assembled and sold as handmade?

How about somebody who purchases damascus from an unnamed source, then sells it as their own? Is this handmade?

Or what about purchasing antiques with no real pedigree, altering them and claiming them as your own work?

What you fail to realize is there are people out there who are willing to mis-represent there "product" for the sake of a buck!

A knowing collector will ask the right questions and it does make a difference how your product is represented.

If the buyer doesn't care then let the buyer beware.
shane
 
Originally posted by shane justice
Stihl,
Would you call a knife that was commercially available as a kit, that was put together by a custom maker and sold as a handmade knife?

How about a sword also purchased comercially, taken apart, altered, then re-assembled and sold as handmade?

How about somebody who purchases damascus from an unnamed source, then sells it as their own? Is this handmade?

Or what about purchasing antiques with no real pedigree, altering them and claiming them as your own work?

What you fail to realize is there are people out there who are willing to mis-represent there "product" for the sake of a buck!

A knowing collector will ask the right questions and it does make a difference how your product is represented.

If the buyer doesn't care then let the buyer beware.
shane
Click to expand...

1.If a maker was buying a kit from lets say koval or texas knife and throwing it together and passing it off as his own I would say hes a thief.The kits are mass pruduced by the thousands far from being a custom.yes they are assembled by HAND.
Ive this by a well known maker here on these forums.Can`t prove it anymore as the pictures were taken off of their web site so in this case I won`t mention names.

2.Never seen it done, But again I would have to say hes a POS or a thief.

3.Is what hand made?If the maker buys damascus from a unknown maker and states the steel is made by himself then again yes hes a thief.
If hes a custom maker and buys the damascus from a unknown supplier,CNCs out the profile,grinds it and asembles the knife....sure its handmade.Why would it not be?If he doesn`t tell you in advance that it is noris damascus you would assume that he claims it as his own?How many makers out there are passing of damascus as their own...REALY?

4.????????


5.And what YOU fail to realize is if people were so fawking concerned about it they would start to mention names.Don`t keep stuffing the bag....just let it out.

6.A knowing collector should be able to look at a knife and pretty much know how it was made.So if I don`t tell you in advance that my blades and parts are CNCed your not gona be interested?HOG WASH

7.Beware of what??That the knife was #25,342 of a kit purchased by koval.
Or that his knives profiles are all CNCed and the blade is noris damascus?


If you ask nicely im sure he`ll tell you.

As a collector I look at deisgn and quality in a custom.If it has smooth action,nice grinds,atractive scales and I like it im buying it reguardless of how the maker made it.Will I research a new maker befor buying one of his knives.....yup!I don`t think its just the regular JOE at a knife show dropping $500 + on a custom.
 
The priority of honesty & integrity falls on the maker, and stays with the maker. If you use an external source like a Laser service to precut your blanks you should say so up front. Dont wait to be asked, it should be displayed in such a manner that a likely customer is fully aware of such.
As a maker in this craft I feel we have a duty to maintain an absolute honesty to the public. The public ,or knife buying consumer deserves the attention.
But I still feel a custom knife should have it plainly spelled out what materials , devices , and services are utilized in the manufacture of the specific knife with a certificate of origin .
 
Dear Stihl,
I don't mention names out of respect for all of the honest folks out there trying to make a living. I wil say my experience is first hand and leave it at that.
The reason for my comments is to make you aware of the many possibilities for fraud. you seem unwilling to recognize that there is a greater issue involved. If you want to rant then go somewhere else.

Big John spoke in elegant simplicity and has encompssed my views on the handmade subject perfectly. Thank you John for putting it in the proverbial nutshell. Amen, Brothersmith!

shane
 
Well, for good reasons, thats why ! I've been holding back, just reading the posts here. In the short time I've been making knives, its been clear from reading the forums AND LEARNING, that the hand made, custom, integrity etc. issue is BIG. And for good reason.

I'm not even so concerned about who is right / wrong / completely off the topic etc. I'm completely appreciative of the fact that this issue is being argued at all. For a new maker like myself, I would have NO CLUE about the major issues (many of them are sticky issues) in knifemaking. I feel I have benefitted from the wide variety of views expressed that I guess if this whole thread got re-started again in 3 months time - FANTASTIC ! (Actually, I'm quite sure it will...)

A new maker, enthusiast etc. MUST be made aware of the crucial points affecting their chosen craft. What better way to learn than to hear from those who have an opinion ? The forums are so popular that most threads get out-dated by the next 50-60 so unless someone specifically goes to the archives.

I feel that for whatever the reasons, the "culture" of this knifemaking craft, at least amongst this group certainly has strong views about the handmade / custom / sole authorship thing. I would emphasise that it is a culture, and this implies belonging to a larger and greater brotherhood of craftspeople through adherence to a particular creed - whether that be those who can shape and make a knife out of steel with hammer forge and anvil or those who do absolutely everything themselves.

Consider alternative "cultures." On the issue of "kit knives" quite a number of Scandinavian knifemakers are quite comfortable calling themselves knifemakers but use blades made by someone else. I'm not even referring to roughed out blades requiring lots of finishing. These are fully finished, HT-ed blade. Traditional Japanese swordsmakers have the many parts made SEPARATELY. At least 4-5 separate groups. Not to mention that in some cultures a knife is made by having 3-4 "smiths" hammering on a single piece of steel at once.

I don't think their techniques makes them any less skilled, less accomplished or their blades less collectable / valuable.

But OUR CULTURE, THIS CULTURE promotes certain values. I believe in them, thats why I attend these forums, not some other forum.

Attitudes and opinions are usually fluid. Another good reason for the same sh#$ being stirred up again and again from time to time. I am trying to be an all-rounder - I stock remove, I forge, do my own HT etc. Bit of this, a bit of that. I tell people that variety is the spice of life and love to broaden my horizons. Hell, one day I might become a 100% grinder jockey or a forg'n'hammer nut and profess that thats the bestest possible thing in the world and stand by it too.

Sorry if this seems irelevant but just had to get that off my chest... Jason.
 
Interesting suggestion but heres the side of people who do it that way. they do it like that so that your not paying 10,000 for a 6 inch knife. think about that.
 
It is still the makers reign, I had people (other makers) tell me I should be using a rest at the wheel when I grind...to save my fingers the burns and scrapes...bring that to this contest of handmade or not. Is it handmade if it is not truly hand held????
Can we really split hairs over a power hammer or a sledge.
Keith spoke of heat treating a few pages back, (sorry Keith)his preference is that the maker do it. I personally make the body of the creation...Paul Bos installs the soul. I plainly list that on my Certificate of origin...which might reduce my contention in a certain circle to sell knives, however it does not reduce my integrity, nor my ability to hold my head as a just & honest maker, person, individual, human.
I have my reasons for not heat treating my blades myself....just like Harley Davidson buys their front ends from Showa of Japan.
I run with the experts, I also pick my fights, i give in to Paul Bos , he has done my blades for a couple of decades with out complaint or any consequence. I also can share my love of the blade and my spirit for function with someone like Keith or who ever with good spirits because we are both honest of our intentions. As for the handmade part...if this makes my blades less handmade..THAT IS THE OPINION OF THE BUYER and you have that right and I respect that, and God Bless You for making a decision.
 
Originally posted by shane justice
I don't mention names out of respect for all of the honest folks out there trying to make a living. I wil say my experience is first hand and leave it at that.

shane
Click to expand...
I don't understand that at all. By not nameing the crooks you are only hurting the honest folks who are trying to make a living. Protecting the bad apples does no one any good at all, not the customers, and surely not the honest makers. In fact by not nameing them and just saying that it is going on, in my opinion is what hurts the honest guy. All these "I've been screwed, but aint going to tell ya by who." posts do more harm than anything else to the many great people in the industery.
 
John is right.

db...I listed my experiences fro the beneft of stihl, who did not seem aware of the situations that exist in the knife world.

And I will add that...among makers it is a courtesy not to mention names when a situation like the ones I describe exist. People in the know have no doubt who is doing what. I mention the different possibilities as a point of fact to illustrate that the argument over hand made is on the shoulder of the makers indidividually. A sJohn said.

As far as the Japanese makers are concerned....it is a well known fact that Japanese blades are collaborations, and none of the smiths would represent their work inappropriately. Which is what I have been saying all along. If you use some material that is not from your shop then do not try to sell it as sole author. State clearly what is your own work.

If, for example, I were to purchase steel from Rex Walter. I would say that is my source. If I use recycled load shafts or ball bearings, then that is what my customer will know. If I purchase mokume, or fancy pins, I will tell them. Rightly so, if I produce them myself, then my customer will know what they are getting.

No this doesn't create a ten thoudand dollar 6 inch knife. It pushes makers to get better and faster.

What is does is educate your customer as to what they are purchasing and what value they are recieving for their dollar. After all that is why people buy hand made knives.

I won't get into the discussion about using a rest. I don't use one by the way. What I will sat is that there are not automated machines in my shop, and the only mechincal rests I use are vises, bench mounted and on the drill press.And my customers know that.

H.D. Thoreau....basically said man has become a slave to his machines. Well, not in my house.

As to using Mr. Bos heat treating. I say YEAH MAN! He is a well known expert in the field and knowing he did the thermals is a selling point. But give him credit for his good work. Do not let people think you are the expert.

Last, as for Harley's being parted out to different countries...ain't it a damn shame we can' do it here in the USA!?!

shane
 
Ok, the real question here is; which is better? The forged or stock removal blade? Heeeeeee haaaaawwwwwww!!!!! But seriously folks, I've been giving alot of thought to this whole conversation. Hand made, home made, CNC, CAD, power tools, hand tools, files, grinders, making your own steel from scratch, power hammer, hydraulic press...... and etc.....

Horse puckey! Every knife maker out there is filling his own niche in the knife makers market. People that want a certain makers work buy it. I consider my knives hand made. Big frapping deal. My Mom makes hand made biscuits when I ask her to. But when she cooks up whop biscuits from the store I'm just as happy. It's all in the buyers perception. Buyer beware!

After all this discussion I'm seriously thinking of making a bank loan and finally getting myself that BGW machine. I just started making tomahawks and the handles are the most expensive part for me. If I just had a way to make the handles myself I'd be way ahead of the ballgame. That's where that BGW machine comes into play. So for now, since I'm poor, I'll keep buying my handles from a known good supplier. Does that make my tomahawks any less handmade? NOPE. When the handle breaks what do you do? Change handles right? Heh. Easy math. My head goes on those new handles and that makes it my hawk.

I wish I had the money to buy all the equipment that would make my job easier. I really do. But I don't. And that's what makes the difference in a handmade knife. I keep doing it like I know how to do it and I keep trying to find a new way to do it better and faster and and and.....

The bottom line is I know what happened to the steel in every phase of the making of my knives. Just ask me and I can tell you. And Les, you're just never going to get it old buddy. You're just too far gone into the production knives. You'll never understand what goes into a forged blade. When was the last time you operated a hammer at a forge and anvil? How about a power hammer? Ever operated a CNC mill? Do you have any experience at all making knives or is it just something you like to write about? Something you talk about but have no experience with? Hmmmm..... You mock what you don't understand. Put your time in at the salt mine and then make your comments. More people will listen to what you have to say then. I stopped listening long ago but that's another story.

Knifemaking isn't about procedure, it's about process. You see, I can't eat my lunch while my blade is being forged. I have to be there and hold the steel just so and swing the hammer just so to make sure everything comes out just so. And I'm not saying my way is the only way. Far from it. As I said, if I could afford to buy all that fancy equipment I'd have it. But I can't so there you go. I do it the best way I can with the equipment I have available to me. And I back up my work with a foolproof guarantee. That's all I have to offer as a knifemaker. And if that's what you're looking for then belly up to the bar and lets make a deal! If my processes don't meet your expectations then move along, there's nothing to see here. That's my game and that's my take on this situation and this argument. What more is there to discuss? You get what you pay for and you have to pay for what you get. And in the end you are the judge of the value of your purchase. Aren't you? That's the way I see it.

And here's my favorite quote from my favorite poster in this thread:

From Keith Montgomery
Heck, I have heard of guys that finish kits and sell them at shows as if they were handmade from the ground up, but I am completely convinced that this lack of integrity is very rare indeed within the knifemaking community.

Within the knifemaking community. That says it all. Listen up knife buyers. Buyer beware. Buy what you want, but know what you're buying and there should never be a problem. Are there any more points to be made in this discussion? Next!
 
Well, I rekon I'm back Keith. I might even become a gold plated knifemaker again. I'm just rolling in the dough because all I do any more is make knives and hawks. :D
 
Find a maker who can do whatever you want.
That will settle the issue.
I forge blades that are ordered forged. I stock remove blades also.
If a maker wants a one of a kind knife I make it. If the customer wants a certain model to their specs I make it. This is the description of a full fledged knifemaker.

AS for cnc... If the maker is running the machine in there own shop whets the difference? NONE.

The education level requirements are higher for folks with cnc machines along with the business investment. These machines can be used for production or creating fantastic art that was NOT available just a few short years ago.

All of my knife bodies that I make are rounded and hand rubbed now days. Even if they are machined (I do this for better quality), each and every one must be hand ground (rounded), finished and hand rubbed. The blades are all hand rubbed satin finished. These have to be done by hand. Most of the knives now days are inlayed with the material that the customer orders. Pearl, ivory, carbon fiber, gold, silver all come into play here. It's all done in my shop.

There are purists on both ends of this argument. Each maker has there own ideas about how they want to make knives. I dont feel one is better than the other.


Anyone interested is welcome to stop by the shop. I am most always working!
 
I guess I look for the end result more than the means of creating it. I like the idea of a knife that someone labored over for a long time in exchange for my hard-earned loot.. but I don't expect the maker to be banging on a hot chunk of steel with a sledge hammer to shape the blade. Not with modern machines,, I think that I am o.k. with the process until knives start rolling off an assembly line at 20 a minute with that Bugs Bunny factory music in the background.
 
Thats the reason for all the hand work. I still forge blades and some damascus from time to time. Its the best of both worlds.
I like accuracy and tradition.
 
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