Why buy a handmade that is not really a made by hand?

Originally posted by striper28
This has been bothering me for a while. There are a few knife makers out there who claim that they make handmade(custom) knives but really don't. Yes they have been making knives for a long time but have now found ways to take "shortcuts".

These shortcuts consist of having all of their knife parts laster cut. They have only make a few models of knife so they can do this. They have pre-fabed blades, liners and handle materials. All they do is maybe grind the blade and do some polishing.

Why do we continue to buy their knives? I thought that a handmade knife was supposed to be just that, made by hand? And they Charge up to or more than $500. It seems like they are just selling an upscale version of a kit knife. And even though they seem to be mass-producing knives their prices haven't gone down? One maker at the Ny show last month had 30 knives to deliver to customers! Do you know how long it takes to make 30 knives the old fashioned way?
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Cutting a blade out of a slab is not much craftsmanship. It's the most boring part of the job for me and a trained chimpanzee could do it as well as me.
Quality grinding, that's another thing entirely. As well as fitting the scales and so on.

I'm a complete rookie (3 blades completed up to now and 1 completed knife) but can cut out a blade no problem. It's grinding that makes me crazy.

You can save materials and belts and designing a way to laser cut materials which minimizes discarded material is not so easy.
IMHO as long as the knife is hand ground and hand fitted together, where's the problem?
Obviuously a forged knife is different and no laser cutting makes sense.
If I could have my blades laser cut out of the sheet without having to cut them myself I'd be far happier :D
 
Since someone brought up definitions. Literally there are no hand made knives.

Now there are knife made with hand tools. Although I don't know if a 400 pound band saw or drill press is a "hand tool".

Even flint nappers have to use another flint to chip the flint they are working on.

Keith, question for you. How do you feel about blade smiths who use power hammers? What about a hydrolic press for making damascus patterns?

Ive also noticed that for all of you with concerns about CNC work and Laser Cutting. No one has addressed those makers who don't employ those machines. But then turn around and send their blades out to have someone else to do the heat treating.

It appears to me that some of you prefer your knives to be built a certain way. But if a bladesmith uses a power hammer...is he really a bladesmith?

For me, Im interested in final results. I don't belive a maker can put part of his or your soul into a knife. It is a piece of steel. If there is any magic, it is found in the knife makers ability to produce a world class piece of cutlery. By whatever method they choose. The key is that they are honest about how they construct their knives.

What you should really be concerened about is the fraudulant makers. Those who hae other makers build their knives. Then put their name on them. Selling them as their own.

Or those makers who are taking kit knives and claiming them as hand made.

There are other more important concerns to the collector today then wether the maker is using a different device to cut a blank.
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson I don't belive a maker can put part of his or your soul into a knife. It is a piece of steel. If there is any magic, it is found in the knife makers ability to produce a world class piece of cutlery. [/B]
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your Heart and soul into a knife,? I Think what most mean would be
the same as to put 100% of ones talents and effort into something
it's the art that is
felt by the maker and the buyer from that piece of steel.

as you say the knife makers ability.
if someone can pick your knife out of a pile of them with no name on it.
well I think that is the magic of the maker, call it what you will.

look at the art world of paintings I don't know one from the other
but there are those that can spot a painters work anywhere and it
doesn't have to have a name on it ether..

hand made Hahaha too many variables to even argue the point.
but I will say if a machine does all the work by it self
then it's not..:D if the customer is concerned, just tell him
how it's made
then it's his business to buy it or not.
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson

Keith, question for you. How do you feel about blade smiths who use power hammers? What about a hydrolic press for making damascus patterns?
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Neither one of these things bothers me. There are things I am personally willing to accept and things that I am not. These fall into the acceptable range as far as I am concerned.

It appears to me that some of you prefer your knives to be built a certain way. But if a bladesmith uses a power hammer...is he really a bladesmith?
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You can not use a power hammer to forge a blade to shape. A hammer must be used to do this, so yes the maker really is a bladesmith even if he/she uses a power hammer.

For me, Im interested in final results. I don't belive a maker can put part of his or your soul into a knife. It is a piece of steel. If there is any magic, it is found in the knife makers ability to produce a world class piece of cutlery. By whatever method they choose. The key is that they are honest about how they construct their knives.
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I believe that a great knife is just a piece of steel as much as I believe that a Cellini sculpture is just a piece of marble. There is something within great artists that makes their creations stand out. It is this something which thet impart to their creations that is often referred to as soul. Call it what you want, it is there.


Edited to correct a typo.
 
Keith,

I believe that a great knife is just a piece of steel as much as I believe that a Cellini sculpture is just a piece of marble. There is something within great artists that makes their creations stand out. It is this something which thet impart to their creations that is often referred to as soul. Call it what you want, it is there.
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No doubt, truer words have never been spoken.

Les,

I understand your point, and I agree with your post as a whole. IMO, there's a difference between using equipment that will churn out all the parts you need so that you can tighten some screws to complete a knife, and using equipment that takes some of the elbow grease out of the knifemaking process. Power hammers, drill presses, hydraulic presses, etc... are still dependant on the maker's touch and vision.

However, I don't think there's anything wrong with a maker using a CNC machine and sending his blades out for HT. It's a good way to make affordable knives that can function quite well. It all depends on what you're looking for in a knife.

IMO, the most important aspects of knife making are the maker's skill at edge geometry and his ability to selectively control the properties of the steel he's working with. For me, this is where a knife gets it's "soul". Some people might find that it's all about exotic materials, filework, engraving and couldn't care less if they could cut their way out of a wet paper bag. Whatever the appeal, when someone is willing to spend thousands of hard earned dollars on a knife, you can bet they can see the "soul" in that knife.

-Jose
 
Jose: You make some good points. Particularly about the maker needing to control the properties of the blade material to optimize cutting performance. I believe this is the issue that Les is alluding to when he mentions makers that don't heat treat their own blades. Now, I'm not going to put down any maker who uses a commercial HT outfit-I did myself for many years. Then, I reached a point where I wanted more input and control over my knives. I wanted to be the one who turned that blank into a cutting machine! If you want to know the area of knifemaking where the "soul-thing" happens, it's in the heat treat. And, in the grinding.

My point is that profiling parts doesn't really add the maker's personal touch like grinding and heat treating. That's where the magic happens. Doing it yourself, you can pick up on things that tell you a bit about that individual piece of steel, and, you can monitor and adjust your processes so that you develop a custom HT cycle for a batch of steel, or a particular model.

But, artistry is something that you can detect in a knife just by picking it up, and, you can detect it in a maker by talking with them. Flat sides and square corners, or, compound curves and contouring with symmetry? Passionate pursuit of refinement towards perfection, or a "that's good enough" mentality?

Personally, I look at the "soul" thing, not literally, but in things like the above. If a maker's going above and beyond-adding more of himself than the next guy, then, it's custom to me, because when the maker made it, it wasn't "just another knife"
 
RJ,

Great post, I agree 100%, and I also agree with Les' post. Every maker has his own philosophy on the craft and will make knives that reflect it. I feel that if he has the talent to impart some "soul" into his work, it will show, regardless of the tools he uses.

-Jose
 
Graymaker,

Im not talking about heart and soul. I am talking about makers who tell their customers they can put part of their soul in to the blade. Not in a figurative sense.....in a literal sense.


Keith,

So it's ok for a bladesmith to use a power hammer...one in which he does not swing the hammer. He never touches the actual blade while it is being formed...to shape no less.

However, it is wrong for another type of machine to cut out a blade, in which the maker never touches the blade while it is being formed?

Seems to me hairs are being split. Either the use of machines where the maker does not touch the blade while it is being formed are ok or they are not.

For those other posters, still waiting to hear about using an outside source to do what arguably could be the most imporant job done to the blade.

Again, some confusion here. It's wrong to have a piece of steel cut into blanks. But it's ok to send the steel out to have someone else complete the process that turns a piece of steel into a blade that is capable of holding an edge.

Without heat treating a piece of steel cannot become a functioning blade.

We all know why it's done. Because there are specialist out there who can provide exceptional results by using Computer Controlled Equipment. That cannot be matched by many of the same makers who use this service.

Does this sound familiar?

If you are looking for performance, then you want the heat treat to be as accurate and complete as it can possibly be.
 
Les, using a CNC machine to do the rough cutout of the blade is fine in my book. I have no problem with this or with laser or waterjet cutting. For that matter I really don't care if the maker has someone else cut out the blade. I don't think there is anything wrong in using whatever tools a maker sees fit to use, but it is my choice to purchase a knife made the way I want it made.

For me, the knife has to be made from beginning to end by the person that puts their mark on the knife. That includes the heat treat. There was a time not long ago that I really didn't care who did the heat treat. That is no longer the case. Once again, I have no problem with makers using using someone like Paul Bos to do their heat treat, but I expect the maker that I choose to be able to do this very important part of knifemaking him/herself.

I am not saying that my above preferences are the only right way to make knives. What I am saying, is that for me there are no other acceptable ways to make a knife that I will purchase. I don't find this any different than saying that I will only purchase knives with carbon steel blades. If that's what I want, that's what I will get. I do realize that this will limit my choices, but so be it.

When it comes to what constitutes a handmade knife, I am going to leave this arguement up to others from now on. I am happy with my definition as I am sure that Les and others are with theirs. Will my definition change in the years to come? It has changed in the past and I am sure it will again in the future.

This arguement has been going on for many years and I think it will be going on many years from now.

So to sum up my feelings on this subject; buy whatever knives you want, made whatever way you like. You're the only one that you have to satisfy.


Edited to correct a typo.
 
Hi Daniel,

The examples you posted are the reasons why I consistently try to "split the hairs".

Obviously, anyone who is familiar with custom knives knows, that the Katana being sold is a piece of sh$$t. We also know that anything from the Franklin Mint and Puma (or any other factory brand) are not handmade.

Almost always when the abuse of using the word handmake or custom. It is done so by the sellers of a lesser product. Trying to sell their product as something it is not.

You see this among dealers as well. They sell both custom and factory knives. Yet they call themselves "custom knife dealers or purveyors". Why don't they just call themselves "knife dealers" or "cutlery purveyors"?

Wal-Mart, K-Mart and Target all sell jewlery, but they don't call themselves Tiffany's.

The best thing a buyer/collector can do is educate themselves. Don't rely on fourms and auctions to police themselves.

Self reliance is always best.
 
most people in business just want to make money,,,a true custom maker of anything will make more money when he is dead than alive,,,when he is dead he will be considered an artist/genius,,,while he's alive chances are he will be stuggling to make ends meet,,,anything that cuts down manufacturing time increases profit and turnover and it's my guess that most makers are in it for the cash not the glory,,,so keep it real,,,all most want is your money,,,or am i just a cynic?
thanks for the 3 Lile's you sent me too Les,,,you were right they do look rather good in my collection.
 
Hallo!
Enjoying the thread you fellas got going! My own thought is that it's up to the maker to represent his knives honestly to his customers. The customer can decide if he accepts the construction techniques.

Aye there's the rub. Some folks aren't 'fessin' up!

Ed Fowler wrote a story a while back...the Spirit of the Blade. He made a point that we are all brothers...and that we all find our niche. There's room for everybody!

shane
 
Lets not let this thread die just yet.

My question is..If a maker is selling his knives and customers are paying his price,why should he have to reveal any of his methods?
So one guy sits in his garage with a 75k machine and makes his knives.He makes an awesome product and his customers are happy.
So what....piss off!

You know chucky I`ve never seen anyone try to stir so much crap up in a years time.Just to let it be known I personaly do not like you.
But im not gona indulge in slamming you here on the forums and get myself banned.Maybe you can hit me up on ICQ # 44571042 or AIM stihl99
and I will further explain my dislikes.

Cheers,
Jay
 
Jay,

At the end of the day, what's important is that you're happy with your purchase. We all have our own ideas on what makes the perfect knife, and what we consider to be acceptable construction practices. However, if the maker will not reveal his methods, how can you be sure he's sitting in his garage with a 75K machine? I think it's natural for some people to be secretive, but sometimes they may not be guarding their methods, just creating some hype for their products.

-Jose
 
Originally posted by STIHL

My question is..If a maker is selling his knives and customers are paying his price,why should he have to reveal any of his methods?
So one guy sits in his garage with a 75k machine and makes his knives.He makes an awesome product and his customers are happy.
So what....piss off!
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You're right, makers don't have to let anybody know how they make their knives, but if I want to know and the maker won't tell me then you can be sure that is one knife he/she won't be selling. They have the right not to tell me and I have the right not to buy. Pretty simple when you think about it.
 
I agree to an extent.I can see the maker explaining how he may make his knives,but I don`t think he has to get into the complete details of it either.Im just so sick of hearing its not a true custom or a true handmade product.Its realy getting sickening.
Im sure if Kit wanted to he could put together 30 or so knives in no time at all.The mans been doing it for sometime now.Like he said it was a bit to much for him.Was the quality of his knives the same when he had his blades laser cut?Im sure they were.Were they still worth $425 then?Hell yeah ....if not more!
Sure not all folks can afford some of the more expensive equipment and I can see them getting frustrated when one maker has it a bit easier making a precision product and selling it for more or less the same price they do.You know...It took alot of these guys a long time to get where they are and I think they deserve it.Yeah I guess its our right not to buy there knives but you and I both know a few people deciding not to buy isn`t gona hurt em either.
just my opinion and im sure it realy doesn`t matter.But I have to say the way I see it.

Jay
 
I totally agree that makers don't have to get into every detail about how they make their knives, but I do think that if a person asks that they should be told if CNC and CAD is used or not.

There is a great deal of hand work that is still needed to be done after the CNC is finished its work. There is no longer any doubt in my mind that you can make a true custom and a handmade knife using these tools.

Yes, I do understand that my choosing not to purchase a knife from a maker is not going to hurt their bottom line, but I am sure that I am not the only person that expects honest answers to the questions I ask makers. If makers don't answer these questions for the people that ask then at some point I do believe that it will adversely affect their earnings.

In the end, it really doesn't matter how a knife is made as long as the person purchasing the knife knew what they were getting and are happy with what they got.
 
Very true Keith I just get a bit frustrated when it comes to the true handmade and true custom part of this conversation...thats all.
I realy don`t wana beat the dead horse any more.In the long run it realy doesn`t get anyone anywhere......lol

Much respects keith,
Jay
 
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