Why buy factory knives?

There's alway's gonna be a Market for both, Custom Knive's and Production Knive's, Even Custom Maker's buy Production Knive's, To me a Forged Knife by a Blacksmith Is Truly a Work Of Art, And from an ABS Blacksmith a Knife Is Not gonna be Cheap, Even a Stock Removal Made Knife Is a Work of Art and I agree that a Knife not properly Hardened & Tempered Is gonna be a Bad piece of Steel, The Hand Made Knife has been around Longer than Any Production Knife, And If our Economy keep's going Down Hill, The Hand Made/Custom will be around when all Factory's are Broke and Done Dealing, I'll keep Buying Both, As far as Custom Folder's there Nice but I agree I'll stick with a Good Case XX or another Maker which was Old Timer Uncle Henry Untill they went the way Of China ! As far as Fixed Blade's I'll Buy Both, But prefer a Good Well Made Custom when It come's to Fixed Blade's, But I'll still buy a Production Fixed Blade, We all have different Taste In Knive's In both Style & Manufacture, Go with what you like, What Is the sence In Arguing over something like this ? Buy & Use what you Like "That Is The Whole Thing In The Nut Shell !" But for a Knife Enthusiest/User & Collector's to get In this Topic and Cut Down a Custom Made Knife because It Doesnt Cost as Much as a Prodution Knife, Or a Knife Makers Standard's arent as High as other Maker's, Just aint right, That's why we have ABS Master's and Apprentice Knife Maker's and People/Knife maker's who do Work In the Shed/Garage and make there Knive's, That's what Home Made & Good Ol Fashioned American Craftsman Made Product's are all about, I personally like Hand Made Good's Forged Steel & Beautiful Wood just make a Beautiful Combination, Hand Made Bow's/Primitive I'd Buy any Day over a Compound Bow, To Each there own, Buy What You Like, And Enjoy and use what you Buy ! All the Custom Knife Maker's I Deal With Stand Behind there Knive's 110% And I Trust them over any Corporation Who Is In It "Just For The Money" They Say If It Break's Send It In We'll Give you a New One ! Hell The Shipping Cost more than the Knife Is Worth ! Just Buy another one and your Good to Go !

Well put*. The knife on my profile page is possibly my favorite(Matt Bailey:thumbup:), the other contenders were also bought here: DPKnives Wilderness:thumbup: and the one I just got from Andy. :thumbup:

As for the insinuation that a "home baked" knife may be of dubious quality, I would trust the reliability of a handmade knife over that of a mass produced one for several reasons. Lately my cutlery budget has been, well, modest, though it's never been high, and I continually find the BF.c knifemaker's for sale area to be my prefered place of purchase, also for several reasons.

Variety IS the spice of life. I just finished reading Dune, so you can imagine the value I place on spice. :D

*You wanna buy a primitive bow?(just kidding, I'de never sell it.:D) I just made my first. A 67" Osage flatbow. It came out light :rolleyes: @ 32#, but it's quick and fun.
 
I buy and make customs, and also buy factory. To answer the OP- I buy customs that are of material and shape that I like for a price I feel is great to decent.

Customs can be had for a low price, such as this Denim (Howser) knife (much cheaper than a RAT Izula- that I also own):
IMG_4789.jpg
.

or this Elishewitz, which was the price of a new Benchmade Skirmish (that I also own):
IMG_3733.jpg


This is a surprising thread for this area, which is usually more Kumbyia. I see a lot of opinions IMO that is not totally accurate coming from both sides, and a lot of good points as well. I like all knives and it does not matter to me if it was custom or factory as long as I like the merging of design, materials and price.



Slightly off topic, but this link:
http://www.jayfisher.com/factory_kn...Factory_Knives_vs._Handmade_and_Custom_Knives
really had me envisioning the Custom Knives version of Cold Steel's Lyn Thompson- a lot of personal propoganda and if not outright lies very bending of the truth (I'm not an expert but if somebody in the US puts ATS34 on a knife and it is proven to not be so then is that not fraud?). Personally this kind of manifesto seems to me to detract from all knifemaking with its large, broad sweeping claims and generalities, and attacking of another form of manufacture without naming names or providing details. It left me felling unwell toward the maker after the read was done.
 
Personally, I have only seen a few blades from makers that I would consider buying, but they are beyond my price range...ever...even if I had $500 to blow on a knife, I wouldn't...just not my thing...
 
Slightly off topic, but this link:
http://www.jayfisher.com/factory_kn...Factory_Knives_vs._Handmade_and_Custom_Knives
really had me envisioning the Custom Knives version of Cold Steel's Lyn Thompson- a lot of personal propoganda and if not outright lies very bending of the truth (I'm not an expert but if somebody in the US puts ATS34 on a knife and it is proven to not be so then is that not fraud?). Personally this kind of manifesto seems to me to detract from all knifemaking with its large, broad sweeping claims and generalities, and attacking of another form of manufacture without naming names or providing details. It left me felling unwell toward the maker after the read was done.

He has to talk big, he's selling to upscale mall ninjas who think money can buy good taste.

Good lord, I'd like to go on about how big a blowhard that man is, but I think it better on the whole to respond to his tirades with a short simple statement. ;)
 
I see nothing wrong with either, buy whatever you enjoy using. Just remember one thing fellas, the production companes aren't lowering their prices to move more product, the suppliers like steel companies, knifemaking supply companies and leathermaking suppliers aren't lowering their prices either so why should the custom maker lower their prices. Bad ecomony effects all consumer products. The cost of materials dictates the price increases you see. I'm still paying the same for supplies, some costs are higher, as I did before the economy went into the shitter. Production companies buy supplies in large volume which costs them less then the one man knifemaker.
Just because we custom makers don't produce in high volume as a factory company doesn't make some of us non professional. Experience in your craft and how you treat your customers is a sign of a professional.
I like Andy, take offense to be considered "homebaked".
Like any business there are cost involved to run your knifemaking business that drive up the cost of the end product. I've been in business for 12 years and it is costly, especially taxes.
IMHO, there are alot of good makers on BF that aren't charging enough for their work but that's their choice.
Scott
 
I own and will continue to buy both. But I don't like getting characterized as a Nan in a shed, or the insinuation that my work is home baked. Use knives you're comfortable using, but why try to paint an honest professon with unnecessary prejudices.

Andy hola,

I said I wouldn't contribute further to this thread, and in the spirit of how I mean that I have no intention of doing so. But it looks like you may have taken something I wrote as a dig where none was intended. That would be unfortunate because much of what I've seen you produce looks great to me I just don't want it.

In clarification I was just calling a spade a spade. Let's be clear on the direction of the prejudice if there is any. I was trying to offer a case from a point of neutrality as it has no impact one me either way whether we apply the men in sheds things to knives or anything else -

There's a long tradition here of nurds pottering a shed home baking perfectly serviceable wireless radios, but they aren't Sony, Grundig, or Roberts Radio.

There are lots of great amateur cooks that produce some splendid confection in their free time, they may even sell some, but that is what they are.

I could apply the same to photographers or whatever. It doesn't detract from what they do to say that if I wanted a wedding catered for, music played, and pictures taken I would be looking to professionals to provide me with the service I required first and foremost. And that should such professional services not meet my exact requirements I would bring in a good hobbyist. On that, I don't believe I am displaying prejudice. In fact quite the opposite. My approach is consistent across the range of trades.

As for the professional nature – how many apparently professional knife makers do it as there sole source of income. I believe standard advice to up and coming makers is don't give up the day job because the amount that do it truly professionally is trivial. Most are supported by other means, wives or girlfriends keep them, they're on benefits, or have some other primary income source. On that, I find no difference between knives and any other bloke following a hobby in their shed. That they sell a few doesn't change that. It doesn't change just because I like knives whereas I have no interest in say amateur DIY building work.

As I said, it would be as shame if you took anything I wrote as a prejudice. Far from it. I'm trying to keep my views consistent.

Anyway, nuff now. :-)
 
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I ventured into "handmade" knives simply because I couldn't find exactly what I wanted in affordable production knives.

I wanted simple carbon steel, a variety of handle material choices, and blade length choices. And a knife tough enough to handle hard use.

Becker doesn't have the blade length's I need (sub 4" sharpend edge),only the BK11. RAT only has two. And both have coated knives ,I don't like coated knives.


I have only ordered from one BF maker thus far, and his work and willingness to build what I wanted is just what I was looking for. I am satisfied enough with his work to own four of his knives. The most I have spent on one knife is $110, low cost for what I recieved IMHO.

At those prices I don't have to "settle" for production offerings that are not exactly what I want.
 
With all the great custom makers we have around here and considering the fact that you can get customs for around the same price as factory knives, why do you buy factory?
After using the few customs I have and working with guys like John(Stomper) who seems to answer everything with "yeah, I can do that", I don't expect that I will go back to factory knives.
Am I missing something?

Because I can not wait three years.....
Becouse everyone seem to be busy.....

{You know my friend, I'm Knife Maker, but I do this part time you must wait .....xxxxyears?
If you are military is a different story....... wait time..... xxxxmonths?}

go east my friend
go east....
 
I own productions from RC, scrapyard and customs (Breedens, JK, Koyote, Wade). First, I like buying the knives that appeal to me, aesthetically and for function. Second, I like buying knives from owner/makers that I can contact via the forums. With Bryan and John, I had a number of tweaks done to their designs and in a couple cases I had knives built based based on my own drawings. Those were a lot of fun and they just make me appreciate the knives all the more for it. With Christof, I had some spare funds at one point and sent him a request to build me a chopper with wood handles. When he asked for more details, I said 'Your the artist, do what you think is best'. That was a whole lot of fun - and what he produced was the duel-wood leuku in my tag line.

I like that fact that I can converse with the makers here on the forum on a regular basis. That even extends to RatCutlery who spend a great deal of time responding to their own subforums. I like the fact that I developed what I consider good friendships with makers based on my e-mail conversations with them via orders and also through the forums. I have a lot of respect for them. When I spent the day with Rick forging that little strife knife, I really came to understand the work and effort it goes into making a blade. First there is expertise, second there is craftsman ship and third there is the artisian spirit. I'd probably be a little more weary of buying a custom from a maker I don't know and trust so I guess I more like J. Williams in that I like to support my maker friends.

Most of my customs that I've purchased were less in the range of $100-$150 but I could probably spend more than that. Invariably, I feel that the blade I received was worth more than that. I also like the productions that I have and kept. I don't really see the point of comparing production versus custom. They were all bought because of some attributes that I thought were lacking in my collection or to fill a niche of some kind or to chase a whim for owning something new.

We are all registered on a knife forum and presumably that is because we like knives and value them more than just hunks of metal that cut stuff. Some folks are attracted to the metallurgy and type of steel, others by craftsman ship and handles others by specific design attributes of blade shape, ergonomics or carry options. Nobody needs to have a custom designed blade or a high end production for that matter. I don't buy the "performance" arguments for a second because as near as I can tell most types of knives will perform admirably if sharpened right and used correctly. Everything else is really about personal taste, likes and dislikes.

We all like knives, why else would you bother posting or reading these threads?
 
I don't complain about custom knife prices. If I can afford it and want it, I buy it. If I can't afford the asking price, I don't buy it. Simple enough. Frankly, I don't see how most of the makers here on BF can make any sort of a profit with such low asking prices. That takes real talent. :)

But amazingly enough, we have makers bringing us exactly what we want at a reasonable price. Not only knives. Just look a Koyote Girl sheath and tell me you can get one from a factory that even comes close. It can't be done.
 
Dannyboy, what Wayne Goddard says is the truth. Alot of makers aren't making per hour what they deserve for the level they are at. It all comes down to being able to make the knife in a reasonable amount of time and still pay close attention to detail. This doesn't come quickly. A maker has to put in the time. Someone saying" hey I think I want to make knives for a living" buys the equipment and supplies, starts to make knives and then thinks the bills are going to get paid is only kidding themselves. It takes a long time to get to the point where you can make a living as a knifemaker. You have to get your name out there and build a solid reputation. Produce a desirable product and gain somewhat of a following. This doesn't happen within a few weeks. The internet does help makers more then before the computer age but it still takes time.
What you are saying is true. If you want to make knives for a living, it better be a labor of love. You have to put in alot of time to make it worthwhile. I don't have near the time I use to to spend outdoors, mainly hunting. I made over 300 knives last year and I'm pretty close to that number again but business has slowed within the last month and a half.
If you operate as a legitamate knifemaking business with a business license and tax number, then you will know what being self employed and paying the thieves in the Fed. goverment the taxes required for operating a business is all about. They rape you with all sort of taxes. I don't want to make this thread politcal so I won't go into it but it kicked my ass last year.
Lastly, I love what I do and will not quit making knives until I'm six foot under.
Sorry protourist, didn't mean to go off topic, I'm just passionate about what I do.
Scott
 
Dannyboy, what Wayne Goddard says is the truth. Alot of makers aren't making per hour what they deserve for the level they are at. It all comes down to being able to make the knife in a reasonable amount of time and still pay close attention to detail. This doesn't come quickly. A maker has to put in the time. Someone saying" hey I think I want to make knives for a living" buys the equipment and supplies, starts to make knives and then thinks the bills are going to get paid is only kidding themselves. It takes a long time to get to the point where you can make a living as a knifemaker. You have to get your name out there and build a solid reputation. Produce a desirable product and gain somewhat of a following. This doesn't happen within a few weeks. The internet does help makers more then before the computer age but it still takes time.
What you are saying is true. If you want to make knives for a living, it better be a labor of love. You have to put in alot of time to make it worthwhile. I don't have near the time I use to to spend outdoors, mainly hunting. I made over 300 knives last year and I'm pretty close to that number again but business has slowed within the last month and a half.
If you operate as a legitamate knifemaking business with a business license and tax number, then you will know what being self employed and paying the thieves in the Fed. goverment the taxes required for operating a business is all about. They rape you with all sort of taxes. I don't want to make this thread politcal so I won't go into it but it kicked my ass last year.
Lastly, I love what I do and will not quit making knives until I'm six foot under.
Sorry protourist, didn't mean to go off topic, I'm just passionate about what I do.
Scott
Don't ever worry about drifting one of my threads. Guys like you are the reason I spend so much time here.
 
Years ago, I took a class given by ABS Master Smith, Wayne Goddard. At the time I was making knives in the homespun primitive historical variety for my own use and pleasure. Anyway, Wayne did a good job of explaining to the students who wanted to go on to build knives 'for a living' just exactly what they needed to consider before leaping into the ring as a knife maker. Even as a hobby maker, it was readily apparent to me that knife making could never pay my bills or support my lifestyle. Too much work, too little free time, customers who expected something for nothing, health and safety considerations, too little financial compensation for what you had to have in your head, etc., etc. Obviously this was, is, a trade that one chooses to do because they enjoy it...period. No serious minded person gets into knife making to get rich. My hat is off to the knife makers on the forum and they have my admiration and respect.

Something out of Wayne's book, The Wonder of Knifemaking, to think about.

I am often asked about the method used to establish a price on one's work. I base my method on time studies and operating expense over the 26 years I've spent as a full-time maker. Multiply that figure by the hands-on hours spent on a knife. That answer gives the selling price.

Put it like this: If you want to make $20 per hour, that's $20 X 4 = $80. If it takes you four hours to make the knife; 4 X $80 = $320 as a selling price for the knife.

This should allow you adequate income to pay for materials, insurance, maintenance, advertising, show expenses and a million other things. Don't forget to pay your taxes.


I don't complain about custom knife prices. If I can afford it and want it, I buy it. If I can't afford the asking price, I don't buy it. Simple enough. Frankly, I don't see how most of the makers here on BF can make any sort of a profit with such low asking prices. That takes real talent. :)

Dannyboy, what Wayne Goddard says is the truth. Alot of makers aren't making per hour what they deserve for the level they are at. It all comes down to being able to make the knife in a reasonable amount of time and still pay close attention to detail. This doesn't come quickly. A maker has to put in the time. Someone saying" hey I think I want to make knives for a living" buys the equipment and supplies, starts to make knives and then thinks the bills are going to get paid is only kidding themselves. It takes a long time to get to the point where you can make a living as a knifemaker. You have to get your name out there and build a solid reputation. Produce a desirable product and gain somewhat of a following. This doesn't happen within a few weeks. The internet does help makers more then before the computer age but it still takes time.
What you are saying is true. If you want to make knives for a living, it better be a labor of love. You have to put in alot of time to make it worthwhile. I don't have near the time I use to to spend outdoors, mainly hunting. I made over 300 knives last year and I'm pretty close to that number again but business has slowed within the last month and a half.
If you operate as a legitamate knifemaking business with a business license and tax number, then you will know what being self employed and paying the thieves in the Fed. goverment the taxes required for operating a business is all about. They rape you with all sort of taxes. I don't want to make this thread politcal so I won't go into it but it kicked my ass last year.
Lastly, I love what I do and will not quit making knives until I'm six foot under.
Sorry protourist, didn't mean to go off topic, I'm just passionate about what I do.
Scott

These are the things I look at when I see knives made and sold. In my own field, I am paid for what I do, so expect to pay others for their work. When I see a "cheap" knife, in most cases what I see is shortcuts in labor, fit, materials, equipment, or experience.

I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of paying well for work well done. I am of the OPINION however, that SOME jobs are not well done, and therefore, despite their lower price, are not worth what is asked, whether it be a knife or painting your car.

What a factory knife CAN do, is spread the cost of equipment, research, experience, design, etc. over the cost of many knives.

Even if I sound like it, I have no horse in this race, and all statements are simply my opinion. Obviously, if your taste is in having a handmade tool, very little would matter beyond whether it was handmade or not. For those interested in performance, it may matter little whether or not a tool is handmade.

Thank you protourist for the interesting and provocative thread.
 
These are the things I look at when I see knives made and sold. In my own field, I am paid for what I do, so expect to pay others for their work. When I see a "cheap" knife, in most cases what I see is shortcuts in labor, fit, materials, equipment, or experience.

I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of paying well for work well done. I am of the OPINION however, that SOME jobs are not well done, and therefore, despite their lower price, are not worth what is asked, whether it be a knife or painting your car.

What a factory knife CAN do, is spread the cost of equipment, research, experience, design, etc. over the cost of many knives.

Even if I sound like it, I have no horse in this race, and all statements are simply my opinion. Obviously, if your taste is in having a handmade tool, very little would matter beyond whether it was handmade or not. For those interested in performance, it may matter little whether or not a tool is handmade.

Thank you protourist for the interesting and provocative thread.

Any Cal. I agree with you 100%. Like I said so many times, knives are personal items. You can buy on a recommendation from someone else but their taste in cutlery may be different then yours. Like they say "variety is the spice of life". We live in a time where there is just too many too choose from which can be good or bad. I guess that's why our collections of blades is so big. :D Gone are the times when knives were looked at as simply tools, like a hammer or screwdriver. I personally like handmade craftsmanship. I've worked with my hands my entire life and wouldn't know what to do if I had a job in a cubicle. When you get something made from a craftsman, their is a part of them built into their work.

Dannyboy, all of that hourly amount doesn't go into ones pocket. It has to cover actual operating costs. All this has to be factored into a business plan in order to stay in business. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
Scott
 
I began to wonder if it was smart to have started this thread. After reading the responses I'm convinced it was a good thing. I've really learned something here. We all have different tastes and we all have different financial abilities. We definitely have differing opinions on what is best for ourselves.
It's great for me to read the different opinions so I can try to see things the way others do.
Thanks for all the input. I learn a lot from you guys.:thumbup:
 
One of the things that I liked about watching Rick work up his knives is not so much the activity, but the time he just sort of spent examining and studying the blade at the different steps. People talk about QA/QC, but it just really can never be the same between a custom and a factory generated blade. The reason the factory guys have a process is because there are different workers doing different things and each one sees a little bit of the knife. The Inspector #37 looks at it and runs a checklist of things to look for which is about all once can do when a knife changes so many hands.

Then consider the custom knife maker. They might have pounded out a couple of hundred knives, they have an organic feel of the process. They work with one blade at a time every step of the way giving it their personal attention and scrutiny. When they are heat treating the blade and are noting the conditions as it occurs. When they are grinding the blade, they are making a mental note of how well that metal shaves off relative to all the other blades they have built. They then sharpen it and again get a great feel for the blade, how it is behaving and chocking it against their internal reference of whether it feels right or not. I have have a lot of trust in that process, more so than a checklist that says - is the tang flush with the handles (check), did they remember to put the pins in (check)....

Back to Rick. I swear, I could through a brick at the guy when he is looking, really looking, at the knife he is making. His basement is full of rejects of blades that for one reason didn't make the cut. He had one blade that I swear I couldn't find a flaw at all in but he would not sell it, saying it didn't feel right so he didn't want to release it. Maybe its hard thing to describe, but seeing him build his blade really made me trust the guy in his profession.

I personally believe a lot of the knifemakers around these parts have that sense of ethic. They stand behind their products and do the best they can to keep a product at a price point while somehow floating the reality of a being a person trying to make a living.
 
I began to wonder if it was smart to have started this thread. After reading the responses I'm convinced it was a good thing. I've really learned something here. We all have different tastes and we all have different financial abilities. We definitely have differing opinions on what is best for ourselves.
It's great for me to read the different opinions so I can try to see things the way others do.
Thanks for all the input. I learn a lot from you guys.:thumbup:


It is a good thread Protourist, :thumbup: for starting it. Lots of good insight and thoughts.

And KGD, that must be quite an experience watching Rick work on his knives. I hope I can observe a maker at work one of these days. Koyote isn't very far from me, maybe I should drop-by, if he doesn't mind visitors :D.
 
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Custom and production knives appeal to different markets, that also overlap at times. For example, someone who can really appreciate a nice knife and all the hand craftsmanship that goes into making it would probably lean towards buying customs and/or higher end production knives. Whereas non-knife enthusiast people that just need something sharp to open packages will probably buy whatever does that job the cheapest. Then again, there are (as has previously been mentioned) people that can appreciate quality knives, but not necessarily afford them. I'm young and in school still, so dropping $150 at one time definitely cuts into my spending cash, but that doesn't mean I don't think that would be $150 well spent, assuming I had a higher income. Just because I recognize the pure utilitarian value of a Mora doesn't mean I can't appreciate the quality and character of a custom piece. It's all relative. I, for one, hope affordable production knives and custom makers are both around for a long time. I like the option of being able to get a pretty damn decent knife for $12 when I'm strapped for cash, or a one-off handcrafted heirloom quality knife when I've got the extra money to spend. Whether it's for pure functionality and affordability, or ultra quality, handcrafted fit and finish, "good knife" means different things to different people, but a good knife is still a good knife.:thumbup:
 
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