I just read this tread. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257365&page=2 I would like to know why some people carry large knife (6" and up) and another large knife axe or hatchet? If I had to bet my life on one tool it would be a good Ratwiler sized knife but I would rather team up my tools. If you are carrying several tools what can't be done with a 3"-5" knife and a hatchet or axe?
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Why carry a large knife and an axe?
- Thread starter bigox
- Start date
depends on how far im walking and in what kind of terrain. my bk7 and cs norse hawk dont way me down too awful bad and i actually use them in the places i go so i have a hard time seeing them as burdensom[fire making and building stuff]. im with subaru on this one as im kinda partial to knives within the 6 or 7 inch range . im guessing that most people who carry really really big fixed blades and axes never really walk that far in the woods , there are some exeptions of course, im sure some people do and have to.
It is probably because we like to buy knives, and need to get them out there and use 'em. If we were just thinking about what we would need on the weekend camping or hunting trips, I doubt many would take all that stuff. Especially if they have any experience travelling with heavy loaded packs. Who really wants the extra weight? The chances of being in a real survival situation are so very remote that most proficient outdoorsmen take what is useful, but not extraneous knowing how to use what they have if the need presents itself.
Better to carry the extra weight in water purification, shelter, food & food prep, fire ignition, or comfort.
Don't get me wrong, I love carrying my knives, and usually take a good number, but if I am carrying my world on my back, so to speak, the big knives are the first to be shed. If I am on a snowmobile or boat, including canoes, I take all sorts of blades, but I usually end up having to look for things to do with them.
I have a few big knives, CS Recon Scout, Trailmaster, and a few customs that I would consider big, and prefer cutting limbs from a downed tree with them over an axe, but the axe is nice to have as well for felling and splitting, if needed.
Jim
Better to carry the extra weight in water purification, shelter, food & food prep, fire ignition, or comfort.
Don't get me wrong, I love carrying my knives, and usually take a good number, but if I am carrying my world on my back, so to speak, the big knives are the first to be shed. If I am on a snowmobile or boat, including canoes, I take all sorts of blades, but I usually end up having to look for things to do with them.
I have a few big knives, CS Recon Scout, Trailmaster, and a few customs that I would consider big, and prefer cutting limbs from a downed tree with them over an axe, but the axe is nice to have as well for felling and splitting, if needed.
Jim
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Because that's what Rambo carried!
Seriously, read the greats of outdoor skills, Nessmuk, Kephart and the likes of Dick Proenneke, what did they all carry?
Various combinations of:
Axe
Medium Fixed Blade
Pocketknife
Granted, in "some" parts of the world a machete "might" be better than an axe.
Seriously, read the greats of outdoor skills, Nessmuk, Kephart and the likes of Dick Proenneke, what did they all carry?
Various combinations of:
Axe
Medium Fixed Blade
Pocketknife
Granted, in "some" parts of the world a machete "might" be better than an axe.
Cliff Stamp
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bigox said:
There is nothing that you can do with those tools that you can't do barehanded, it just takes more time. Would adding a parang or machete save you even more time - yes, on some tasks *many* times over.
A long blade is *much* more efficient than an axe on lighter vegetation, leafy plants all the way up to springy wood which needs a thin and FAST blade to cut well. Cutting and digging in snow the long knife is again much faster.
For shaping wood, a long blade can be used as a draw knife for cutting shavings and scraping, this isn't a time issue as much as a fatigue one as you are not using your wrist but your shoulders and back.
-Cliff
I have been in the bush in Canada on canoe trips, camping & backpacking trips, fishing and hunting trips, etc, sometimes for several weeks. They could be viewed as survival in that I am my way home, and there is no one looking for me. If I fall and break a leg or ankle, or whatever, I could die. I have been miles from anywhere, weathered in, unable to travel in the canoe, or on foot, or unable to get the snowmobile running, blah, blah, blah.
I am not claiming to be an expert, but just offering my experience, so don't jump on me.
I have never needed to dig ANYWHERE. Why waste that kind of energy?? I am not trying to be a smartie pants, but what gain is there in dulling your knife?
Splitting wood. Yes I do it, but it really is a novelty that I can do without.
In the woods, I have my synthetic clothing that dries while I wear it, and carry a candle lantern with spare candles, and a MSR stove. A fire is nice, but not needed. I do have firestarters with me in case the need does arise. If I need dry wood, I can always find it by looking. If I am too lazy or tired or injured to look, I can use a small knife to split smaller logs. Then I get a small fire going, and dry the bigger wood.
Plus, a fire is guaranteed to burn little holes in your expensive nylon clothing.
If out on the land in the arctic, you better be able to rely on your clothes because rock and snow do not burn well. There are people up here, and they cannot build fires, other than small oil ones. They have been doing it for generations.
I think the need to chop and pry and dig with a knife are getting way overinflated here. A knife is for cutting. Remember the old adage "right tool for the job". Maybe the knife can be use as it was intended, to carve a more appropriate tool for the job...
I am not saying that you should not rely on your knife if the need is there, but I am saying that the need almost always isn't. That said, I cannot speak for the desert or Central American jungles because I have not been there in a survival capacity. But in the forests, lakes and rivers of North America, you can survive without abusing your tools, and it is not any harder to do. Safer, in fact.
Jim
I am not claiming to be an expert, but just offering my experience, so don't jump on me.
I have never needed to dig ANYWHERE. Why waste that kind of energy?? I am not trying to be a smartie pants, but what gain is there in dulling your knife?
Splitting wood. Yes I do it, but it really is a novelty that I can do without.
In the woods, I have my synthetic clothing that dries while I wear it, and carry a candle lantern with spare candles, and a MSR stove. A fire is nice, but not needed. I do have firestarters with me in case the need does arise. If I need dry wood, I can always find it by looking. If I am too lazy or tired or injured to look, I can use a small knife to split smaller logs. Then I get a small fire going, and dry the bigger wood.
Plus, a fire is guaranteed to burn little holes in your expensive nylon clothing.
If out on the land in the arctic, you better be able to rely on your clothes because rock and snow do not burn well. There are people up here, and they cannot build fires, other than small oil ones. They have been doing it for generations.
I think the need to chop and pry and dig with a knife are getting way overinflated here. A knife is for cutting. Remember the old adage "right tool for the job". Maybe the knife can be use as it was intended, to carve a more appropriate tool for the job...
I am not saying that you should not rely on your knife if the need is there, but I am saying that the need almost always isn't. That said, I cannot speak for the desert or Central American jungles because I have not been there in a survival capacity. But in the forests, lakes and rivers of North America, you can survive without abusing your tools, and it is not any harder to do. Safer, in fact.
Jim
Jim Craig said:I have been in the bush in Canada on canoe trips, camping & backpacking trips, fishing and hunting trips, etc, sometimes for several weeks. They could be viewed as survival in that I am my way home, and there is no one looking for me. If I fall and break a leg or ankle, or whatever, I could die. I have been miles from anywhere, weathered in, unable to travel in the canoe, or on foot, or unable to get the snowmobile running, blah, blah, blah.
I am not claiming to be an expert, but just offering my experience, so don't jump on me.
I have never needed to dig ANYWHERE. Why waste that kind of energy?? I am not trying to be a smartie pants, but what gain is there in dulling your knife?
Splitting wood. Yes I do it, but it really is a novelty that I can do without.
In the woods, I have my synthetic clothing that dries while I wear it, and carry a candle lantern with spare candles, and a MSR stove. A fire is nice, but not needed. I do have firestarters with me in case the need does arise. If I need dry wood, I can always find it by looking. If I am too lazy or tired or injured to look, I can use a small knife to split smaller logs. Then I get a small fire going, and dry the bigger wood.
Plus, a fire is guaranteed to burn little holes in your expensive nylon clothing.
If out on the land in the arctic, you better be able to rely on your clothes because rock and snow do not burn well. There are people up here, and they cannot build fires, other than small oil ones. They have been doing it for generations.
I think the need to chop and pry and dig with a knife are getting way overinflated here. A knife is for cutting. Remember the old adage "right tool for the job". Maybe the knife can be use as it was intended, to carve a more appropriate tool for the job...
I am not saying that you should not rely on your knife if the need is there, but I am saying that the need almost always isn't. That said, I cannot speak for the desert or Central American jungles because I have not been there in a survival capacity. But in the forests, lakes and rivers of North America, you can survive without abusing your tools, and it is not any harder to do. Safer, in fact.
Jim
I'm with ya, Jim (others here will not be). I've wondered about the whole survival digging concept myself. Seems the me the primary reasons to dig are to find roots to eat or water to drink. These tasks can be done with a digging stick, which is easier to sharpen.
That said, a large knife in the parang/machete class is essential for trail clearing in some environments. Here in the Seattle area, I use mine all the time doing fieldwork. I recently did some field work in Alaska, and I never took my parang out with me. It was comforting in the hotel room at the beginning and end of the trip though, and guranteed that the Homeland Security folks opened my bags. They repack so much better than me
Pat
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Hey Jim,
Where do you poop?
I usually dig a scat hole...but I guess you can use a stick to do it...
You just said you never had to dig...so I wondered...do you just leave it out the in the open...paper and all?
Shane
Where do you poop?
I usually dig a scat hole...but I guess you can use a stick to do it...
You just said you never had to dig...so I wondered...do you just leave it out the in the open...paper and all?
Shane
Cliff Stamp
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Jim Craig said:
I noted digging in snow specifically in the above, you do this to create shelters, a long knife will cut blocks much faster than a small one or axe. You can make a snow knife out of wood, but generally it doesn't have the heft of a long blade which is nice on some snows and especially on crusty snow. Many times here you get a quick sleet fall and you can't shovel the snow (plastic shovels will actually break) before you cut the crust off.
In dirt the main reason to dig is to bury something (scat or animal parts like snake heads or discards), or dig up something, usually plants to eat or insects for bait or to eat if you are really hungry. It also helps for posts for heavy shelters, or reflectors, where the knife doesn't dig as much as it just makes a pilot hole, if the ground is soft this often isn't need, and most times you can do it with a wooden stake.
Yes it dulls the knife, so do lots of things, some woods are very abrasive and carving with a knife can take the edge off very quickly as in minutes, scraping even more so, but is useful for spark tinder. All knives eventually go dull, and sharpening them should not be a limitation on use.
You only need something to be needed once for it to matter. I can't remember the last time I actually needed to have snow tires on my car in the winter (any issues with control), but I am certainly not going to go without them. The odds on me ever having an accident are actually low, but I am not going to bet on it when the precaution is simple and can make a great difference in a bad situation.
In general, using the same logic you can argue why learn to start fires using friction when you can just carry matches. Why learn to make tinder when you can just carry it. Why learn to create basic weapons (speak, bow, stone axe/knife). These are all rather extreme skills and it takes a really extreme situation to require them as in you have lost all your gear and are suddenly in a very hostile enviroment. I however would not argue against time spent learning them. However even if I knew them quite well, I would also not ignore tools which could do it easier, outside of personal challenge trips and such.
Yes, when it looks like this :
http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/aj_utility.jpg
1/16" thick, O1, 63.5 HRC, edge is < 0.010", full hollow grind.
but knives like these :
http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/pab_ak_18.jpg
are not so restricted in design, it isn't abusive to chop, pry and dig with them, that is what they are made to do, that is why they use the steels they do and why they have the grinds they do. They trade off the ability to be precision cutting instruments to give them a wider scope of work.
-Cliff
Much of the above is location specific.
I've never seen enough snow here in the Puget sound lowlands to build a shelter, snowfall is infrequent (once or twice a year) and seldom more than 3" in a "big" storm.
I'd also suggest that fish traps are likely more effective than hook and line with bait, but YYMV.
The bolster on that khuk could use a polish, Cliff
Pat
I've never seen enough snow here in the Puget sound lowlands to build a shelter, snowfall is infrequent (once or twice a year) and seldom more than 3" in a "big" storm.
I'd also suggest that fish traps are likely more effective than hook and line with bait, but YYMV.
The bolster on that khuk could use a polish, Cliff
Pat
i carry a large knife (7.5" blade), because i don't carry an axe. i still carry a smaller blade, but if needed i can fell, chop and split wood with my 'camp' blade. and it offers uses that you can't use an axe for. an axe is a bit large to carry in my edc pack and doesn't offer the versatility that my 'camp' blade does. digging and prying are part of that versatility, though i'll admit that it would be rare. i like a larger knife because it has the capability to do these things in an emergency if needed. the time it takes to find decent wood and carve a tool for the job could mean the difference, or at least i think so. i like the idea of a smallish fixed blade and an axe. it just doesn't carry well for me on an edc basis. extended forays are a different story.
Cliff you are putting words in my mouth, "Using the same logic..." I did not say that, and it is not the same logic. Stop trying to fight with everyone, and listen. You do not know everything, though you certainly seem to have an opinion on everything. I do not know what your experience is, but I do know that if you are building a shelter in the snow, there is never any "snow cutting" required. Unless you are building an igloo, which I would not advise in a survival situation due to time and effort ratio. A snow cave, quinzi, is much easier and faster, as well as less dependant on the snow texture and moisture. To flatten the ground for a shelter, it is easier to stomp it down with your feet, preferrably w/ snowshoes. I cannot even imagine the benefit to digging snow with a knife. It's like bailing a boat out with the paddle rather than a bucket. Plus digging with a knife is too dangerous.
As far as only needing something once, I would never "need" a bigger knife, especially if I have an axe, as this thread stated. That said, I can get by without the axe as well, and for the one in a million times that I'd want the bigger knife (IF I'd want the bigger knife) I'll make do with what I carry. Splitting big wood is not neccessary, and physically tiring. Contrary to this thinking, I often do carry the big knife anyway, for FUN, not neccessity.
I would rather save the edge on my knife for the things that I brought it for. Cutting. Digging in the dirt will chip or ding the best steel, and I don't see the need to damage my edge for stupidity's sake.
Shane, I can dig with the light plastic trowel I carry, or a stick, or a flat rock, or my hands. But usually poop on a rock, and pack out the TP. Heck, I used to pack out the poop. No more, though. Smearing poop on a rock is an accepted method for disposing of your deuces, however gross. Actually, if I hit MacDonalds on the way out to a weekend trip, I'm usually good until I get back.
The car ride is often a bit hasty... You asked.
You know, this place is getting ridiculous. Everytime someone has an opinion that is not geared toward a big honking chopper, two or three certain people feel the need to shed their dim light and contradict the contributor's opinion. Not everyone buys into the bigger knife is better concept. And, as is obvious from other posts from those who are getting slammed, they are usually the ones with the real life experience.
If certain people don't want to read the opinions of those with real skills and knowledge, that is fine. Look away. Others do want these people's opinion, and that is why they asked.
Just because you have made 11,000+ posts on this forum does not mean you know better than those that go and do. It just means you type more.
Again, I do not claim to be an expert. I know what works for me, as I have been out there plenty. And I have used the big knives and small knives enough to know what works.
I do not post things to hear myself talk. I post answers to people's questions if I think I have something to offer. Lately, I have been making some jokes, or abrasive posts in response to some of the nonsense around here, and for that I apologise. It is just getting aggravating to try and have an intelligent conversation on this forum.
I still like this place, but my patience for arguements is running out. Discussion is not debate. Arguing is not learning.
As far as only needing something once, I would never "need" a bigger knife, especially if I have an axe, as this thread stated. That said, I can get by without the axe as well, and for the one in a million times that I'd want the bigger knife (IF I'd want the bigger knife) I'll make do with what I carry. Splitting big wood is not neccessary, and physically tiring. Contrary to this thinking, I often do carry the big knife anyway, for FUN, not neccessity.
I would rather save the edge on my knife for the things that I brought it for. Cutting. Digging in the dirt will chip or ding the best steel, and I don't see the need to damage my edge for stupidity's sake.
Shane, I can dig with the light plastic trowel I carry, or a stick, or a flat rock, or my hands. But usually poop on a rock, and pack out the TP. Heck, I used to pack out the poop. No more, though. Smearing poop on a rock is an accepted method for disposing of your deuces, however gross. Actually, if I hit MacDonalds on the way out to a weekend trip, I'm usually good until I get back.
The car ride is often a bit hasty... You asked. You know, this place is getting ridiculous. Everytime someone has an opinion that is not geared toward a big honking chopper, two or three certain people feel the need to shed their dim light and contradict the contributor's opinion. Not everyone buys into the bigger knife is better concept. And, as is obvious from other posts from those who are getting slammed, they are usually the ones with the real life experience.
If certain people don't want to read the opinions of those with real skills and knowledge, that is fine. Look away. Others do want these people's opinion, and that is why they asked.
Just because you have made 11,000+ posts on this forum does not mean you know better than those that go and do. It just means you type more.
Again, I do not claim to be an expert. I know what works for me, as I have been out there plenty. And I have used the big knives and small knives enough to know what works.
I do not post things to hear myself talk. I post answers to people's questions if I think I have something to offer. Lately, I have been making some jokes, or abrasive posts in response to some of the nonsense around here, and for that I apologise. It is just getting aggravating to try and have an intelligent conversation on this forum.
I still like this place, but my patience for arguements is running out. Discussion is not debate. Arguing is not learning.
Right there withya, Jim.
That's pretty much the reason I don't spend much time here anymore. This used to be a favorite place of mine, and I have had some good conversations here and learned a few things. Alas, that is not the case anymore. Now it's too much like swimming in acid.
Pat
That's pretty much the reason I don't spend much time here anymore. This used to be a favorite place of mine, and I have had some good conversations here and learned a few things. Alas, that is not the case anymore. Now it's too much like swimming in acid.
Pat
I'm also feel that digging is not normally necessary. I don't normally split wood for fires cause I always learned to be lazy and save energy. I have been in a real survival situation in the mountains brought on by a unexpected blizzard. I wasn't dressed poorly but wasn't wearing my snuggies either. I just crawled under a large pine tree and had a small fire and waited out the storm. It was auctually fairly comfortable under there. Plus anyone who knows about pine trees knows there is always dry material inside conifers. This goes for many other trees as well. Back to the subject at hand when moving fast hiking I carry my Fallkniven A1. It is a good comprimise between an axe and smaller knife. When hunting I carry my F1. When camping I carry a knife of my choosing A1 or F1 depending on which I want to use as well as my GB wildlife hatchet or a machete.
Oh and I poop on the ground like my animal bretheran.
Oh and I poop on the ground like my animal bretheran.
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Good Answer Jim....sound reasoning....
No worries...I wasn't starting pooping match.
Just curious.
Shane
No worries...I wasn't starting pooping match.
Just curious.
Shane
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- 21
I've been into wilderness survival for about 15 years now, and I always carry 3 different knives with me two lock blades and one large about 9 inch blade. Large knives have their uses I've chooped small trees with it, I've split and cut firewood so it fits inside my shelter for a night, I never ever go into the wood without a large blade. It takes knowledge and experience to use a large knife and the only way to learn is to go out and practice. I disagree with anybody that says that large knives are useless or unneccessary.
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Here in Central Brazil you cant get by without a machete, theres just too much stuff growing in the way of everything you want to do. Once youve settled on the fact that you must have a machete (here) then the small fixed blade with a decent point starts to make sense as it does a better job at all the things a machete is cumbersome for.
Machetes are disposable tools in that they are cheap and made to endure hard use and when they get too ugly to be seen in public you give them away to some farmer who is dirt poor and gain a friend for life.
I dig with my machete, a lot. I dig/chop/pry out roots and rocks from sleeping areas, level ground for sleeping, dig for water, probe down into wet sand with the blade to test for water, and chop out termite mounds for making fireplaces. I have never broken or bent a blade beyond usefulness. Normally the only part that dulls very much is an inch or two behind the blunt point, but so what, I carry a file too.
One of the things I teach people how to do is to cut down small trees and branches for shelters with their small knife. When I take groups out, I give everyone a Mora and a Machete. Before I let them hack stuff down with their machetes I teach them how to do the same thing with a small knife and a baton. I dont want to give them the impression that a small knife is not up to big tasks; its just a matter of technique.
I personally carry a BK-7, but put it in context; Im usually with four other guys with machetes. If I go with my daughter or some other friend they will have a machete and we use it for the ugly, ground chopping, termite mound digging stuff. I dont subject my BK-7 to that because that would be stupid given the circumstances. My BK-7 excels at clearing brush, building shelters, and it is just as good at cutting me free from snags and vines as a machete. It splits wood better than a machete or small knife. I also tolerate it on my belt a lot better than a machete that I end up hanging on my pack. When I go out by myself I hang a machete on my pack and the BK-7 could easily be left at home. On those occasions I take it because (drum-roll please) I like it (cymbal crash), and thats a good enough reason to bear the burden.
IMO this forum has gotten to be too argumentative and dogmatic. Wilderness survival is a side line to the main event, WILDERNESS. Wherever you are, find a wild place and make it your own. Im sure you will find it a far more peaceful place than some would lead you to believe. If there are extreme and lethal conditions in your wild place then move out into it slowly and with a plan and with level headed friends so you can lean in relative safety. Ive been tramping around the same wild place here in Brazil for seven years now and there are still places a days walk into it that I will not go with less than four people and I dont care what you hang on my belt or stuff into my pack.
I will ask again as I have asked here before, does anyone know of a true life survival situation in which a person died or suffered the unspeakable for failure of a knife or failure to have a big enough knife? I cant recall any. I can recall heroic people who survived extreme hardship with little more than the will to live and calm persistence. (Like the 17 year old girl who walked and swam her way out of the jungle over the course of 9 days with a broken collarbone. She had a sundress and some earrings IIRC.) And we fret and worry if our knives arent made of D2. Mac
Machetes are disposable tools in that they are cheap and made to endure hard use and when they get too ugly to be seen in public you give them away to some farmer who is dirt poor and gain a friend for life.
I dig with my machete, a lot. I dig/chop/pry out roots and rocks from sleeping areas, level ground for sleeping, dig for water, probe down into wet sand with the blade to test for water, and chop out termite mounds for making fireplaces. I have never broken or bent a blade beyond usefulness. Normally the only part that dulls very much is an inch or two behind the blunt point, but so what, I carry a file too.
One of the things I teach people how to do is to cut down small trees and branches for shelters with their small knife. When I take groups out, I give everyone a Mora and a Machete. Before I let them hack stuff down with their machetes I teach them how to do the same thing with a small knife and a baton. I dont want to give them the impression that a small knife is not up to big tasks; its just a matter of technique.
I personally carry a BK-7, but put it in context; Im usually with four other guys with machetes. If I go with my daughter or some other friend they will have a machete and we use it for the ugly, ground chopping, termite mound digging stuff. I dont subject my BK-7 to that because that would be stupid given the circumstances. My BK-7 excels at clearing brush, building shelters, and it is just as good at cutting me free from snags and vines as a machete. It splits wood better than a machete or small knife. I also tolerate it on my belt a lot better than a machete that I end up hanging on my pack. When I go out by myself I hang a machete on my pack and the BK-7 could easily be left at home. On those occasions I take it because (drum-roll please) I like it (cymbal crash), and thats a good enough reason to bear the burden.
IMO this forum has gotten to be too argumentative and dogmatic. Wilderness survival is a side line to the main event, WILDERNESS. Wherever you are, find a wild place and make it your own. Im sure you will find it a far more peaceful place than some would lead you to believe. If there are extreme and lethal conditions in your wild place then move out into it slowly and with a plan and with level headed friends so you can lean in relative safety. Ive been tramping around the same wild place here in Brazil for seven years now and there are still places a days walk into it that I will not go with less than four people and I dont care what you hang on my belt or stuff into my pack.
I will ask again as I have asked here before, does anyone know of a true life survival situation in which a person died or suffered the unspeakable for failure of a knife or failure to have a big enough knife? I cant recall any. I can recall heroic people who survived extreme hardship with little more than the will to live and calm persistence. (Like the 17 year old girl who walked and swam her way out of the jungle over the course of 9 days with a broken collarbone. She had a sundress and some earrings IIRC.) And we fret and worry if our knives arent made of D2. Mac