Why carry a large knife and an axe?

[Cliff Stamp]

[igloo]

A snow cave, quinzi, is much easier and faster, as well as less dependant on the snow texture and moisture.

Depends on the snow, as I noted you can get very powdery snow on top of an ice crust, a few days ago Kim Peterson who works in S&R, demonstrated on OLN what he called a snow grave, which is made by a combination of digging and cutting snow blocks. It is essentially a type of snow cave, you dig straight down, then go sideways then cover the top with blocks of the crusty snow. You can do this much faster than building a quinzi which requires both moving the snow twice as well as letting it set after piling.

I cannot even imagine the benefit to digging snow with a knife.

You use the knife to CUT through the crust and/or blocks, you don't shovel with it unless it has a specific design such as those made by JEB. Similar to digging in the ground, it is more like pick not a shovel. Yes it dulls the knife, when you are finished you sharpen it, which takes maybe 30 seconds to a minute if you were really aggressive and decided to rake the knife edge first through the soil a bunch of times, other than that likely just the very tip is dull.

There are lots of times when it is productive to dig in the ground, as noted, the list goes on, locally there are bog marshes for example which are not cut readily with a stick, or even most shovels, but a knife cuts them well and it has many uses, it burns decently well for example and has uses in shelter construction and bedding and even clothing (after you dry it out).

This is also a "survival" forum, and thus has other considerations, there was a thread awhile back on the GH forum where a forum member used one of his khukuris in an emergency situation in very boggy soil to cut and dig his way out of a problematic situation. It will probably never happen to him again in his lifetime. However he will likely always keep a khukuri in his truck from now on.

I would never "need" a bigger knife, especially if I have an axe, as this thread stated.

There was nothing in the start of the thread about the location, there are lots of places were axes are not overly efficent due to the type of wood, see Mear's recent show on OLN when his entire party carried long knives and used them constantly.

As well I never said you need a long blade, I just said it has its uses, such blades are common the world over, parangs, goloks, machetes, bolos, bill hooks, khukuris, leuko, almost every culture has time in various forms, they are common brush tools and not directly replaced by small blade + axe.

-Cliff

 

[Ebbtide]

Discussion is not debate. Arguing is not learning.

Aint that the truth?

 

[skammer]

Man not this again.

Snore.

Anyone who doesn't see the value in carrying and using only a larger blade vs an axe and or small blade only is not well versed in wilderness survival skills.

DO you need a larger blade with a boat load of gear? Probably not. WOuld you kill for one if said boat capsized leaving you with nothing?

I would think so.

Skam

 

[2dogs]

Man, it's no wonder I don't show up here very often. Jim that was a well reasoned and measured response. You'll get pooped on for sure now. It has already begun with the comment you don't use a big knife because you don't know how to. I have 35+ years experience in the outdoors, mostly hunting and camping and I've yet to need to dig a hole with a knife. I do have several big knives, even some customs but they are drawer queens. They only come out when I feel the need to justify the money I spent on them.

 

[skammer]

I will ask again as I have asked here before, does anyone know of a true life survival situation in which a person died or suffered the unspeakable for failure of a knife or failure to have a big enough knife? I can’t recall any. I can recall heroic people who survived extreme hardship with little more than the will to live and calm persistence. (Like the 17 year old girl who walked and swam her way out of the jungle over the course of 9 days with a broken collarbone. She had a sundress and some earrings IIRC.) And we fret and worry if our knives aren’t made of D2. Mac

Can you quote an instance where a having a smaller blade caused someone to prevail where a large blade would have been fatal?

"Maybe?" Arron Ralston could have pryed his arm loose with a larger blade but he will never know will he. Minus a strong will to live Ralston was a dead man. Minus a strong will to live with a larger blade his will "MAY" not have been an issue to begin with.

A larger blade hedges your bets. Either way I should take a sundress too.

Skam

 

[cleaner145]

I go 4 wheelin year round on vacations in the mountains. This includes camping out often for several nights. I don't have to carry anything, just load up the bike. I use a relatively small fixed blade knife 2.75" for almost every camp chore. I have a small hand axe with me if needed, but it seldom ever comes out. I do carry a large heavy fixed blade knife for one reason though, clearing a trail wide enough for my 4 wheeler at times. Sometimes trails that I have used dozens of times are simply blocked by large windfall or logging activity. What I can't go over I must go around, because sometimes theres only one route if you wish to keep going forward. A large heavy knife is ideal for quickly clearing heavy vegitation and thin branches for a short detour. A machette would probably work most of the time, but not as well on some of the wood. Once I'm done, back in the sheath strapped to the rack until next time. If I need it, it's there. Just my $0.02.

 

[bigox]

WOW! Sorry I did not mean to start all of this! I was perfectly happy with "we like to buy knives and use them". I was just trying to understand a different view.

As for me I hunt and camp in west PA. but I would not consider myself a survivalist or especially wise in the art of bush-craft. I am not questioning the merit of a large knife. Like I said if I had to bet my life on one tool a large knife would be it. I am questioning carrying Sm med large knives AND an axe. I small fixed blade seems like a no brainer. Adding either a med or large knife is good but it seems a small axe or hatchet would be a lot better. To carry all of the above would be a waste of energy. The jungle would definitely be different story. Around here all we have is maltiflora rose bushes and you can go around a lot easier than chopping through them with any tool including power tools!

In the end everyone should just be happy with what works for them!

 

[martin j]

"Maybe?" Arron Ralston could have pryed his arm loose with a larger blade but he will never know will he. Minus a strong will to live Ralston was a dead man. Minus a strong will to live with a larger blade his will "MAY" not have been an issue to begin with.

The SR team that recovered his hand needed a crane or rig of some sort to do so, a few men alone coud not move it so i think we can safely say "no " a larger blade would have made no difference. Actually maybe big blade or better yet hatchet could, with proper angle, severed his entire forearm below elbow, instead he had to wrap tourniquet, snap bones on his own and then cut thru muscles with multi tool knife blade. (Think about it, THAT is wll to live.) He passed out 2-3 times while doing so.
Of course what would have saved him in reality is not "big knife vs small knife +axe" but as always proper preparation- he would not have been forced into terrible decision if he had just told someone where he was going and for how long. But yes, however stupide I give him credit for truly doing what it takes to survive. Real lesson is not HE SHOULD HAVE BIG KNIFE but WE should not wander off somewhere without giving itinerary to some one else.

 

[Jim Craig]

Man not this again.

Snore.

Anyone who doesn't see the value in carrying and using only a larger blade vs an axe and or small blade only is not well versed in wilderness survival skills.

Man, that Nessmuk moron must have been one "not well versed" guy. Same with Kochanski, Kephart, Thoreau, Sears, Jacobson, Gilligan, and the Skipper, too.
And all those losers that live off the land in Canada's wild lands. What do subsistance hunters and trappers know, compared to you?

Skammer (aptly named), here is a great idea. Turn off your computer, go outside, and go to Cliff's house. Take a big knife or three each, an axe/small knife combo, some cinderella blocks and some car doors. Then, go off into the wilderness that you have both mastered, and perform endless quantitative tests on the objects you brought with you, as well as the large logs in the forest that are waiting to be split by your Busse's. Please be very thorough, and take as much time away from your computer keyboards, and the "submit" button, as needed. The longer the better.
Think of the benefits. You can prove to everyone that I am actually dead, failing to survive my last trip into the bush with only a folder, some clothes, a tent, food, and a camp stove.
Plus you will be able to re-assert each other that all of the outdoor knowledge in the world rests with you. And don't worry. That brown stuff is called "dirt". It'll just wash off.
We will wait with baited breath for your return, and the answer to all of our questions.

Maybe you can also add up the number of people who no longer post on this forum because of your never ending shennannigans.
:jerkit:

 

[pict]

Can you quote an instance where a having a smaller blade caused someone to prevail where a large blade would have been fatal? Skam

Skam,

Can I take your re-direct as a "no" to the question I posted? No scenario comes to mind in which someone dies snapping a Mora in half? I can think of lots of stories in which people survived with substandard or no kit at all.

I like my big knives and think they have a place but they are a tool not a magic wand. No piece of kit would have saved Mr. Ralston's hand, it was smashed beyond repair. I personally don't know anyone who purpousefully goes into the bush with emergency self-amputation in mind as an activity, but in his case a lowly SAK would have been the ticket. Sharp blade for the meat and sinew and the saw for the bone. Maybe he would have only passed out once or twice.

To anyone who is just getting into the sport - Take whatever you have an go out and get some dirt time. That way you will quickly learn what works and what doesn't and what is marketing designed to get you to blow hundreds of dollars on a tool that $50 will buy you plenty of. Mac

 

[Jim Craig]

To anyone who is just getting into the sport - Take whatever you have an go out and get some dirt time. That way you will quickly learn what works and what doesn't and what is marketing designed to get you to blow hundreds of dollars on a tool that $50 will buy you plenty of. Mac

Mac, I made a similar comment on another thread last week. Hopefully you are met with more reasoned responses.
Having viewed a number of the trips you've done in the jungle down there, you are obviously one who goes out and does your thing, and I hope interested parties give your responses due consideration. Many members, including me, appreciate your input and insight.

Also, it is apparent that you are more patient than I am. Good on ya.

 

[North61]

To me it depends where I am.

In the Boreal Forest I pretty much carry with me a small axe (Think Gransfors) and a small knife and never feel the need for more weight. A big knife might take the place of both of these but is generally less efficient than either in their preferred environment.

North of the tree line I don't see as much need for an axe..but it could be used for game porocessing and breaking up ice. However on the Komatiq I carried an ice chisel, a snow saw, long snow knife a small shovel and a good small knife. On foot I'd just take the knife and a combination snow saw/knife in aluminum.

Small Igloos are practical if you get good at it but the big thick cowboy knives like the trailmaster and it's type would be so unhandy as to be unusable. A long thin butcher knife is in every Inuk's tool kit. That's good enough for me.

 

[2dogs]

Great pic North. What kind of footwear is worn for those treks? In the Sierras it gets plenty snowy but not too cold, -5f is about it most years. Black military Mickey Mouse boots work great, Sorels get wet too easy though that is what most people wear. This year there is hardly any snow, just rain.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I will ask again as I have asked here before, does anyone know of a true life survival situation in which a person died or suffered the unspeakable for failure of a knife or failure to have a big enough knife?

It is hard to tell what killed people. Thomas Linton asked awhile back how com hypothermia doesn't show up on statistics more often. Recently (week ago) three people went through the ice not more than a few hours from where I live, it happens every year multiple times, and there are numerous fatalities. This time two out of the three are listed as having drowned, however if you end up in frigid water in sub zero temperatures it isn't the water in the lungs which is the real problem.

Take a nice small knife like the Spyderco Delica and a parang and start a fire and build a small shelter, now consider the times and in various senarions from ideal (lots of deadfall) to bad (lots of rain and little deadfall). The difference this makes is similar to the difference more experience would make, you do it much faster and much safer (less work, less fatigue, less frustration, etc.) . How could you argue against one and for the other. I was discussing this with my brother recently who noted he would use a large axe. He outlined a few ways to build them *very* fast with a large axe, far faster than I could do with a knife or saw.

One of the ways is a modified treefall, find a large white pine (it cuts easy and has decent heavy branch cover) at least 8-12" at base, larger if possible. You can put a felling axe three inches into it over a six inch fase with little effort, so that wood comes down in minutes (~25 seconds is WR time for 12" white pine for those curious). Cut the tree off in thirds. Take the middle part and bring it back making a v with the base. Go up the middle and hack off the inside limbs to make the shelter. Take the top part and plane all the limbs off one side, use it and all the waste limbs to frame the roof.

Since pine cuts so easy this is all done very fast. If you have two people one is putting it together while the other guy is cutting and you are sheltered from snow and sleet and somewhat from the rain (bough cut off rain do this poorly unless in massive amounts, moss, sods, ferms, etc. are all better). Comparing this with the time it takes to build a debris shelter in less than ideal conditions with a knife than can't chop effectively is many to one times longer which is many to one times the time you are in exposed elements.

No simply having a more effective tool doesn't make you live it just makes it easier, consider indirect effects of accumulation. Consider starvation or dehydration and now think about the amount of work in the above two situations and how tools which are more efficient actually allow you to require less water and food because you are burning less doing what needs to be done. Consider other effects like simple stress, and fatigue in general and how this effects other issues like health, injury and disease or even the will to survive.

No one is arguing you should not do something, just buy a knife and sit confident that you can survive until rapture. Even Skammar who has the strongest viewpoint here on what makes something a survival blade doesn't advocate just buying the knife and then you are done. He runs courses not sells knives and shows the guys who to use them, and in particular how to use a variety of tools and lets them make up their mind about which ones to use.

-Cliff

 

[numberthree]

Cliff you are putting words in my mouth, "Using the same logic..." I did not say that, and it is not the same logic. Stop trying to fight with everyone, and listen. You do not know everything, though you certainly seem to have an opinion on everything. I do not know what your experience is, but I do know that if you are building a shelter in the snow, there is never any "snow cutting" required. Unless you are building an igloo, which I would not advise in a survival situation due to time and effort ratio. A snow cave, quinzi, is much easier and faster, as well as less dependant on the snow texture and moisture. To flatten the ground for a shelter, it is easier to stomp it down with your feet, preferrably w/ snowshoes. I cannot even imagine the benefit to digging snow with a knife. It's like bailing a boat out with the paddle rather than a bucket. Plus digging with a knife is too dangerous.
As far as only needing something once, I would never "need" a bigger knife, especially if I have an axe, as this thread stated. That said, I can get by without the axe as well, and for the one in a million times that I'd want the bigger knife (IF I'd want the bigger knife) I'll make do with what I carry. Splitting big wood is not neccessary, and physically tiring. Contrary to this thinking, I often do carry the big knife anyway, for FUN, not neccessity.
I would rather save the edge on my knife for the things that I brought it for. Cutting. Digging in the dirt will chip or ding the best steel, and I don't see the need to damage my edge for stupidity's sake.
Shane, I can dig with the light plastic trowel I carry, or a stick, or a flat rock, or my hands. But usually poop on a rock, and pack out the TP. Heck, I used to pack out the poop. No more, though. Smearing poop on a rock is an accepted method for disposing of your deuces, however gross. Actually, if I hit MacDonalds on the way out to a weekend trip, I'm usually good until I get back. The car ride is often a bit hasty... You asked.

You know, this place is getting ridiculous. Everytime someone has an opinion that is not geared toward a big honking chopper, two or three certain people feel the need to shed their dim light and contradict the contributor's opinion. Not everyone buys into the bigger knife is better concept. And, as is obvious from other posts from those who are getting slammed, they are usually the ones with the real life experience.
If certain people don't want to read the opinions of those with real skills and knowledge, that is fine. Look away. Others do want these people's opinion, and that is why they asked.
Just because you have made 11,000+ posts on this forum does not mean you know better than those that go and do. It just means you type more.

Again, I do not claim to be an expert. I know what works for me, as I have been out there plenty. And I have used the big knives and small knives enough to know what works.
I do not post things to hear myself talk. I post answers to people's questions if I think I have something to offer. Lately, I have been making some jokes, or abrasive posts in response to some of the nonsense around here, and for that I apologise. It is just getting aggravating to try and have an intelligent conversation on this forum.

I still like this place, but my patience for arguements is running out. Discussion is not debate. Arguing is not learning.

Well said, Jim!

 

[pict]

BigOx,

Your original question is perfectly valid. I would say the only reason to carry a big knife and another big chopper (axe, hatchet or machete) is merely personal preference. It doesn’t make a lot of sense in a backpacking type situation but if you are traveling by ATV, Snowmobile, 4X4, etc go for it. On my 2004 Alaska trip we had an axe and a chainsaw, but we also had a Ford F350 double cab truck.

One strategy is not to go into a serious wilderness area alone and spread the tools out among the various packs and backs. If we had an axe recently on a trip I took here I would have taken the time to repair a bridge by felling a few 8-inch logs. I had four guys along with machetes and we could have made an afternoon of it, but it wasn’t necessary. It was a time issue not a survival issue.

A small knife will be far more convenient for a wide variety of tasks that a larger knife “will do” but will do so awkwardly. If you have an axe then a small fixed blade will see a lot of use. A Mora will cost you about $10 and will make a fine companion to any big chopper you care to carry.

When I think of “survival gear” I consider what I will actually, continually, purposefully, attach to my body while I am in the wilderness. I am confident that here in Central Brazil I could do any knife tasks I need to do with just my BK-7, therefore it is set up as a survival kit in and of itself and it stays on the belt. If I were to go to the Amazon or the Pantanal I would replace it with a machete and put up with it. The knife in and of itself is not the whole solution to wilderness survival situations.

Don’t worry about “starting something” on BF. Things have been “started” for a long time now with no end in sight. Mac

 

[pict]

Cliff,

Your point about time is well taken but can be solved far more effectively than by increasing the size and weight of the knife. When I run my trips I make everyone carry their basic kit all the time they are out of camp, even for water runs. The List: Machete, Knife, Lighter, Tinder, Poncho, Cord, Canteen & Cup, Compass, Whistle, and Chemical means to treat water. With that set up a newbie can easily make a decent camp (Lean-to, grass bed) with a fire in about 2 hours. I make them carry the stuff to reinforce the fact that the don’t have the skills yet to make what they need from natural means but the basic kit will get them out of a jam. It turns a survival situation into a minimalist camping trip.

I think it is dangerous to people who are new to wilderness survival for us to constantly discuss “The Knife is Essential” and “Which Knife is Best” giving the impression that this alone is THE crucial issue. The really deadly true-life survival situations usually involve serious injury or sudden and extreme changes in weather. If things really go south you will probably be slowed down from a serious injury or really rushed by bad weather. Primitive skills and what you can build or carve with a knife are a poor back-up plan in lieu of a well though out daypack. Bushcraft and wilderness survival are complimentary disciplines but they are distinct. People need to have a clear understanding of the difference.

If someone can go out there in his skivvies and knife and live like a Native American, great, more power to him. Can he live that way with a mangled knee, and broken wrist, after waking up from his concussion after falling off a cliff scouting elk? “Things you can do with knives” are not the end-all answer to wilderness survival situations. Mac

 

[alco141]

mac,
thank god a voice in the wilderness. you mean that in brazil you dont have to plan on prying giant logs apart to find fire wood, i forgot, it never rains in brazil. you mean that skill is more important than a large name brand knife that is unconditionally guaranteed, oh you mean that this knife could never get lost and you could be ...shudder... without such a name brand knife, and would have to do with a lesser or totally inadequate blade, oh i forgot... you only carry one blade cause thats all a real man needs.
you mean that a folder is totally inadequate as a survival knife, even if it is the only knife you have... you are right you should just throw it away rather than carrying the extra weight.

oh then again i was snoring because anyone that knows anything about the outdoors knows that you need a giant name brand unconditionally guranteed knife that cant ever be lost and is made of steel that will absolutely never fail ever ever ever.

remember that i am the real survival expert around here, and i say you need a giant knife then you need a giant knife, and if you forget who is the real survival expert is around here then i will selectively edit your posts and then show you that i am much more of a survival expert than you are.

then again if i cant win the arguement i will change the parameters so i can have a plausable explanation as to why all of you are wrong and why i am right. or apply some pseudoscience to the arguement that will show you who the real intelectual is here. just remember that i am the real intelectual here, the rest of you are unwashed masses. remember that and if i ever think that you forgot even for a second i will rip your posts apart and by selective editing them prove to you who is the real mastermind around here.

and if we can insult enough of the folks that come here looking for information then maybe they will make this forum a shrine to us and we will be the foremost in our field, and everyone will want to come here because they know that this is the only real knowledge base that there is that is worth anything and that no one else could have more knowledge than we do, because ours ins the ultimate and only opinion that counts.

freud would have a field day with a couple of folks here.

 

[North61]

Great pic North. What kind of footwear is worn for those treks? In the Sierras it gets plenty snowy but not too cold, -5f is about it most years. Black military Mickey Mouse boots work great, Sorels get wet too easy though that is what most people wear. This year there is hardly any snow, just rain.

Thanks: A few years ago Sorel made a boot called the Webber Malakov that was a breathable bottom muckluk style and for dry really cold weather nothing beat them. I managed to scoop up a couple of pairs of size 13's before they stopped making them.

The Acton Canadian Arctic Muckluk is also good but slippy when it gets a bit of wear.

Dog Mushers here say good things about Steiger Arctic Muckluks, double or triple wide and worn with Acton Canadian Army liners.

For Spring or overflow the Mickey Mouse Boots are good but terribly heavy.

 

[2dogs]

North do you have any online sources you could recommend for muckluks?