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Why carry a large knife and an axe?
- Thread starter bigox
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great! let us know how it goes.
We're having heavy rain here and we're about to flood, so I'll be busy for a few days with the cattle etc. Will proobably be back online in a few days.
W
We're having heavy rain here and we're about to flood, so I'll be busy for a few days with the cattle etc. Will proobably be back online in a few days.
W
bwray
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Cliff Stamp said:
I agree on the utility of a larger knife in survival situations. Sometimes you might not have all the time in the world to build a shelter and start a fire. If you're hunting elk in the Rockies and fail to make it back to your vehicle before dark you might be in a little trouble. Better work quickly and efficiently, because the temperature can drop 40 F in a short time.
I collect, machetes, khukuris and indonesian blades such as the golok with just this possibility in mind (in addition to the fact that I just like them). A standard test I do is to see how long it takes to chop through a 2x4 at a relaxed pace; 30 -35 seconds is a decent result. Best performers of reasonable size are the khukuri and the golok. A 16" khukuri weighing 26 oz gave performance about equal to that of a 20" golok weighing 20 oz.
I may never really "need" one of these blades, but I have a good time.
Cliff Stamp
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[efficiency]
In one of Mear's Bushcraft episodes he makes the exact same commentary that Skammer did recently on long blades being more efficient. Mears is talking about Bushcraft specifically and notes that it is the most essential bushcraft tool, talking mainly about tropical jungles. He refers to machetes and parangs specifically by name but is using a golok during the exposition. However in other enviroments where the vegetation is more woody and hard he tends to carry GB axes. This is a fairly common split in wood working tool choices. However you can get long blades which work well in hard woods as well they just have to be ground very differently than a blade which is designed for leavy vegetation. Specifically it needs a heavier cross section to make it more rigid and the blade get more narrow and will have primary tapers, dual if possible like on the Valiants.
-Cliff
bwray said:
In one of Mear's Bushcraft episodes he makes the exact same commentary that Skammer did recently on long blades being more efficient. Mears is talking about Bushcraft specifically and notes that it is the most essential bushcraft tool, talking mainly about tropical jungles. He refers to machetes and parangs specifically by name but is using a golok during the exposition. However in other enviroments where the vegetation is more woody and hard he tends to carry GB axes. This is a fairly common split in wood working tool choices. However you can get long blades which work well in hard woods as well they just have to be ground very differently than a blade which is designed for leavy vegetation. Specifically it needs a heavier cross section to make it more rigid and the blade get more narrow and will have primary tapers, dual if possible like on the Valiants.
-Cliff
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I have lived in the 'bush', also on the 'water' for extended periods of time, and have found a large knife, very sharp, pretty much does everthing I need to do.bigox said:
Skin a squirrel, clear a site, open cans, kill a bear etc.
and elimate the incovenience and added weight of carrying a hatchet, - with a 1/4" X 11 " blade, I can drive tent-pegs as well, and split kindling . keeps travel, light.
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If it's big, sharp, and shiny... USE IT.
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As with most knife tactical stuff it's all about the credible situation. In wilderness travel, the vast majority of the hardest hands I know, the real players, hardly carry knives at all, or possibly a lockback with a delrin handle. While the survivalist is busy cutting stuff and building stuff, these guys will have walked out.
A lot of survival situations involve recreating civilization, and in a civilized context I need hundreds of cutting tools. I'm a wood guy after all. But I think the chance of having anything useful when the real survival situation sets in is pretty remote.
The playing at survival crowd like Ray Mears, seem to enjoy living out various scenarios. It's not real survival where you start out unprepared, lost, bleeding, or with broken bones. Nor is it wilderness travel at it's most efficient, where you carry the minimum and travel the maximum. It's hanging out and playing at Voyageur, or Jungle guy, for that you need tools. And I am not knocking it sounds interesting.
One thing a big knife is good for is as a weapon. Where I live you aren't all that likely to run into either dangerous people or animals, so that doesn't have much appeal. But I can see the virtue.
For digging toilets, I have carried a small plastic shovel. Most of the places I travel either have bathrooms or there are so few people I don't bother digging. Toilet digging is a little like catch and release fishing: a temprary solution that carried us through the 80s in crowded places, but can't carry the current load on the environment, and is not necesarry in the wilderness.
A lot of survival situations involve recreating civilization, and in a civilized context I need hundreds of cutting tools. I'm a wood guy after all. But I think the chance of having anything useful when the real survival situation sets in is pretty remote.
The playing at survival crowd like Ray Mears, seem to enjoy living out various scenarios. It's not real survival where you start out unprepared, lost, bleeding, or with broken bones. Nor is it wilderness travel at it's most efficient, where you carry the minimum and travel the maximum. It's hanging out and playing at Voyageur, or Jungle guy, for that you need tools. And I am not knocking it sounds interesting.
One thing a big knife is good for is as a weapon. Where I live you aren't all that likely to run into either dangerous people or animals, so that doesn't have much appeal. But I can see the virtue.
For digging toilets, I have carried a small plastic shovel. Most of the places I travel either have bathrooms or there are so few people I don't bother digging. Toilet digging is a little like catch and release fishing: a temprary solution that carried us through the 80s in crowded places, but can't carry the current load on the environment, and is not necesarry in the wilderness.
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Oops, I was responding to the first page!
"I agree on the utility of a larger knife in survival situations."
This is the kind of coment that is largely meaningless (I'm taking it out of context, no offence meant). It is like saying "what kind of gun would you like to have in a gunfight". Personally, I would like to have an M60 machine gun and be in a well sandbagged positon. On the other hand I wouldn't like to carry that stuff around waiting for the fight to get started. As someone wisely stated, the scenario dictates the answer.
I think these large "camp" knives are pretty cool. I intend to try one out. But I like the idea of keeping them in camp.
"I agree on the utility of a larger knife in survival situations."
This is the kind of coment that is largely meaningless (I'm taking it out of context, no offence meant). It is like saying "what kind of gun would you like to have in a gunfight". Personally, I would like to have an M60 machine gun and be in a well sandbagged positon. On the other hand I wouldn't like to carry that stuff around waiting for the fight to get started. As someone wisely stated, the scenario dictates the answer.
I think these large "camp" knives are pretty cool. I intend to try one out. But I like the idea of keeping them in camp.
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Protactical said:
What about a minigun?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gatling_Minigun.jpg
http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Machine-Guns/GE_XM214_Minigun.htm
Cool:thumbup:
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"It's not real survival where you start out unprepared, lost, bleeding, or with broken bones."
IMO real wilderness survival is avoiding at all costs this exact situation. I look at wilderness survival as a skill set that allows you do all the other things in the wilderenss with an increased margin of safety wether it is photography, trekking, back country skiing, fishing, hunting, 4x4, ATV, dirtbike, snowmobile, whatever.
It amazes me that people actually do these activities without a basic knowledge of how to survive in the environments that they have elected to enter. The idea is to start out prepared, located, and whole and stay that way for the duration. If you are going to reamain in populated places near trails and prepared campsites then the very environment is set up for you to do that with a lower level of skills.
In places where those facilites do not exist, like the 42% of planet earth that is still wilderness, you can get yourself into serious trouble without serious planning and preparation. In my expeience and observation the very best stimulus for learning wilderness survival and how it applies to your particular area is a dose of suffereing.
A suitable knife is only one component in an overall plan for safe back-country travel. The main killers are hypothermia, dehydration, and large doses of kinetic energy. Don't allow yourself to freeze, dry out, or fall off of terrain features and you have 90% of it licked. The making of fire, navigation, signalling, first aid etc. are all skills in support of that goal.
I once spent a summer working in a SCUBA shop. One of the guys I worked with was a former Navy SEAL, a real one, not just some guy talking. One day the rest of the guys and I were talking guns and we asked Pat's opinion. His answer...
"Guns?! They're just for when you screw up. If you know what you're about you'll never need them."
Mac
IMO real wilderness survival is avoiding at all costs this exact situation. I look at wilderness survival as a skill set that allows you do all the other things in the wilderenss with an increased margin of safety wether it is photography, trekking, back country skiing, fishing, hunting, 4x4, ATV, dirtbike, snowmobile, whatever.
It amazes me that people actually do these activities without a basic knowledge of how to survive in the environments that they have elected to enter. The idea is to start out prepared, located, and whole and stay that way for the duration. If you are going to reamain in populated places near trails and prepared campsites then the very environment is set up for you to do that with a lower level of skills.
In places where those facilites do not exist, like the 42% of planet earth that is still wilderness, you can get yourself into serious trouble without serious planning and preparation. In my expeience and observation the very best stimulus for learning wilderness survival and how it applies to your particular area is a dose of suffereing.
A suitable knife is only one component in an overall plan for safe back-country travel. The main killers are hypothermia, dehydration, and large doses of kinetic energy. Don't allow yourself to freeze, dry out, or fall off of terrain features and you have 90% of it licked. The making of fire, navigation, signalling, first aid etc. are all skills in support of that goal.
I once spent a summer working in a SCUBA shop. One of the guys I worked with was a former Navy SEAL, a real one, not just some guy talking. One day the rest of the guys and I were talking guns and we asked Pat's opinion. His answer...
"Guns?! They're just for when you screw up. If you know what you're about you'll never need them."
Mac
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Trying to understand.Protactical said:
"tactical"? Nothing tactical here. No requirement to low crawl along the trail or camoflage your hide.
"Real players" are apparently already "there" when it comes to survival knowledge and skills. Others of us still seek to learn more -- from others here.
Most folks in a wilderness survival situation must assess whether is it better to "walk out" - if they can (broken bones and all that, as you observe), vs. stay put and help SAR locate them with signaling. Odds are, it's better to stay put if you are lost - the prototypical wilderness survival situation.
"Survivalist"? Has an implication that applies to some here, but not most.
THAT would be survivalism, or even "bushcrafting" for some vs. staying alive until found - or until you "find" yourself.
I have been in a couple of real survival situations - on foot in high mountains in deep snow (and more unpredicted snow falling) miles from the nearest road. Not the EOTWAWKI, to be sure, if THAt is what you mean by "survival situation." I had useful things - sheath knife (trusty "KA-Bar" at the time), hand axe, matches, tinder, compass, tarp, rope, appropriate clothing, canteen, sleeping bag, knowledge, experience. It was no big deal, but it could have been.
I had ancestors who crossed the mountains and built civilization with very few tools. However, they were wood people. They knew all there was to know at the time about wood. One cabin they built is still standing in Logan County, KY.
They are bushcrafters. They glory in creating a comfortable living situation in the "bush" with minimal tools. They are not lost. They want to be there. IF they're good at "it," they will seldom, if ever, need to be found. They're just fine. Mr. Myers seems quite good at what he does.
Why do we have to start out unprepared? Surely we will be surprised in some sense to find ourselves in a survival situation, but we can do better than "unprepared."
Ah, but what is "the minimum"? That depends, right? Who, where, when, why?
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Pict, :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
May we add drowning to your list of things to avoid?
In some situations, a gun is useful to harvest meat (but I still like my gill net).
May we add drowning to your list of things to avoid?
In some situations, a gun is useful to harvest meat (but I still like my gill net).
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TL,
Yes, that would be acceptable. Avoid poison ivy and whitefaced hornets as well, but that's it... Everything else, forge ahead, no forethought necessary. A true life, high speed low drag action adventure hero can just take it.
The law of threes (3's) has not been revoked.
BTW I am a firearms enthusi-ast and IMO you are not having a proper adventure unless you have a quality sidearm along. This is a whole 'nuther subject area where opinions as to "what's best" run round and round. I only meant to imply that, like firearms, if you know what you are about, your wilderness survival skills will rarely come into play. That being said I do carry whenever and wherever the law allows, because I don't get to invent the scenario in which I live. Mac
Yes, that would be acceptable. Avoid poison ivy and whitefaced hornets as well, but that's it... Everything else, forge ahead, no forethought necessary. A true life, high speed low drag action adventure hero can just take it.
The law of threes (3's) has not been revoked.
BTW I am a firearms enthusi-ast and IMO you are not having a proper adventure unless you have a quality sidearm along. This is a whole 'nuther subject area where opinions as to "what's best" run round and round. I only meant to imply that, like firearms, if you know what you are about, your wilderness survival skills will rarely come into play. That being said I do carry whenever and wherever the law allows, because I don't get to invent the scenario in which I live. Mac
bwray
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Hey Protac, no offence taken, but I would like to follow up. I certainly agree that an M60 would be an optimal piece of equipment to take to a gunfight. However, if I am ever unlucky enough to need them, what I will have available is a Kahr PM40 or a Kel-tec K3AT (depending on how lightly dressed I am). (Incidently, I have CCW permits in New Mexico, Utah and New Hampshire, which by virtue of reciprocal agreements, allows me to carry in almost every state that allows it at all.) The question on knives in the woods is entirely analogous. What good does it do to favor a particular equipment option if it is entirely unreasonable to expect to have it available when you need it. I submit that having a 20 oz field knife available in the winter woods is entirely reasonable based on the following consideration:
1. I simply will not enter the elk woods in winter without carrying enough equipment to ensure survival for one night. I assume (perhaps rashly) that I will be able to find my vehicle in the morning even if I have been unable to find it in the dark.
2. Surviving one night in the winter woods means avoiding death by hypothermia.
3. Given that one cannot count on being able to start a fire under all climatic conditions, there are several strategies available for avoiding terminal hypothermia: a) carry enough extra clothing to ensure survival; b) carry enough shelter (sleeping bag, bivy sack, portable tent) to ensure survival; c) carry some appropriate combination of extra clothing and shelter to ensure survival; or d) carry enough tool to be able to construct a shelter that is adequate for survival.
4. Options 3a, 3b and 3c all require one to carry far more weight than the 20 oz (1.5 lbs) field knive required by option 3d. If you are hunting elk in the mountains in Winter, weight is a very important consideration.
These arguments indicate that not only is the 20 oz field knife (along with an adequate supply of parachute cord for lashing) not an unrealistic piece of equipment to carry in the winter woods, it is in fact the absolute minimum level of equipment required to ensure overnight survival. My only reservation concerns whether or not the field knife is really adequate.
Hope this at least explains my rationale.
1. I simply will not enter the elk woods in winter without carrying enough equipment to ensure survival for one night. I assume (perhaps rashly) that I will be able to find my vehicle in the morning even if I have been unable to find it in the dark.
2. Surviving one night in the winter woods means avoiding death by hypothermia.
3. Given that one cannot count on being able to start a fire under all climatic conditions, there are several strategies available for avoiding terminal hypothermia: a) carry enough extra clothing to ensure survival; b) carry enough shelter (sleeping bag, bivy sack, portable tent) to ensure survival; c) carry some appropriate combination of extra clothing and shelter to ensure survival; or d) carry enough tool to be able to construct a shelter that is adequate for survival.
4. Options 3a, 3b and 3c all require one to carry far more weight than the 20 oz (1.5 lbs) field knive required by option 3d. If you are hunting elk in the mountains in Winter, weight is a very important consideration.
These arguments indicate that not only is the 20 oz field knife (along with an adequate supply of parachute cord for lashing) not an unrealistic piece of equipment to carry in the winter woods, it is in fact the absolute minimum level of equipment required to ensure overnight survival. My only reservation concerns whether or not the field knife is really adequate.
Hope this at least explains my rationale.
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""Real players" are apparently already "there" when it comes to survival knowledge and skills. Others of us still seek to learn more -- from others here."
Nope, those are the real players in the wilderness travel field, like elite mountaineers, or whatever your terrain. I've talked to elite moutaineers, famous guys who made a living at it, and then will talk about being dropped by the likes of Reinhold Messner, they needed a moving sidewalk to keep up. Guys like that don't carry 2 pound Camp knives. I'm not making a point here about survival, just a contrast in style. There are go light folks and there are folks for whom 2 pounds extra stuff isn't even a catagory. If I had the option of choosing the firestarting and battoning skills from here Or Messner's go fast skills (when he was young), generally not much of a choice.
"IMO real wilderness survival is avoiding at all costs this exact situation."
Pict, I would agree it is to be avoided, but I think if survival means anything, it's a situation where there is some risk of not surviving. If you are living competantly in the wild with the right tools and skills, you are no more engaged in survival than I am here at my computer at home. My lifestyle may even be more dangerous. I'm feeling like maybe I screwed up and I may have the makings of a heart condition here. Some of those guys living in the bush may well outlive me by a good margin, what is survival about that? A person practising their bushcraft might be training for the kind of survival situation they anticipate could befall them, but that training is not the "survival", it is the practice session.
I've only been in a couple of survival situations. One absolutely required rescue since I was smashed up and freezing to death, and the other was a lost in the woods scenario were I effected my own escape, and it didn't develope into an actual survival sitatuation, but it is the clossest I have come to it really happening, and I wasn't particularly well prepared as far as equipment was concerned. I feel there is probably less than 20% chance I will be carrying a knife in a real survival situation, and probably zero chance I will be carrying a big knife. If one thinks of all the modern scenarios where you aren't allowed to pack weapons... For instance I used to be able to bring firearms into the US, and vise versa. Starting with the Can gov, we have pretty much screwed that up. Post 9/11 I'm not carrying any big knives over the border into the US. Possibly not any knives. I've been wondering what to do if these cutting comps get off the ground.
Nope, those are the real players in the wilderness travel field, like elite mountaineers, or whatever your terrain. I've talked to elite moutaineers, famous guys who made a living at it, and then will talk about being dropped by the likes of Reinhold Messner, they needed a moving sidewalk to keep up. Guys like that don't carry 2 pound Camp knives. I'm not making a point here about survival, just a contrast in style. There are go light folks and there are folks for whom 2 pounds extra stuff isn't even a catagory. If I had the option of choosing the firestarting and battoning skills from here Or Messner's go fast skills (when he was young), generally not much of a choice.
"IMO real wilderness survival is avoiding at all costs this exact situation."
Pict, I would agree it is to be avoided, but I think if survival means anything, it's a situation where there is some risk of not surviving. If you are living competantly in the wild with the right tools and skills, you are no more engaged in survival than I am here at my computer at home. My lifestyle may even be more dangerous. I'm feeling like maybe I screwed up and I may have the makings of a heart condition here. Some of those guys living in the bush may well outlive me by a good margin, what is survival about that? A person practising their bushcraft might be training for the kind of survival situation they anticipate could befall them, but that training is not the "survival", it is the practice session.
I've only been in a couple of survival situations. One absolutely required rescue since I was smashed up and freezing to death, and the other was a lost in the woods scenario were I effected my own escape, and it didn't develope into an actual survival sitatuation, but it is the clossest I have come to it really happening, and I wasn't particularly well prepared as far as equipment was concerned. I feel there is probably less than 20% chance I will be carrying a knife in a real survival situation, and probably zero chance I will be carrying a big knife. If one thinks of all the modern scenarios where you aren't allowed to pack weapons... For instance I used to be able to bring firearms into the US, and vise versa. Starting with the Can gov, we have pretty much screwed that up. Post 9/11 I'm not carrying any big knives over the border into the US. Possibly not any knives. I've been wondering what to do if these cutting comps get off the ground.
Cliff Stamp
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Protactical said:
This is moving from one place to another, by people who have made it a distinct focus of their life and who are likely physically and mentally gifted for it. This is different from what Mears teaches which is how to live in one place and is designed so it can be used successfully by a widespread audience, even including people with physical disabilities.
Consider for example something like the eco-challenge. Yes there are some teams that make it through very fast and very consistently. However there are also some teams that do not, even though they may do the exact same things they require medical intervention.
Now consider advocating the behavior of the top teams to the populace in general as the correct way to behave if they were stuck at the start point in a survival situation. Would this be a reasonable point of instruction? That is goal of people like Davenport and Lundin.
-Cliff
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Your either good or you suck, or somewhere between the poles. Whether the strategy should put an emphasis on having all the right tools or mobility is a reasonable question that both the gifted and otherwise should consider. Too much gear and you limit your choices. Though I suppose you could just toss the heavy gear if you had to. Possibly the questioni s whether carrying a lot of gear slows you to the point where the real survival scenario is more likely.
I'm Physically disabled with 70 pounds of gear on my back, a lot less so with 10. So in with the Ray Way and out with the 70 pound canoe pack as soon as I was sure I was going to get back on my feet at all. Mears also emphasises light travel. It's "all good" as the kids say.
I'm Physically disabled with 70 pounds of gear on my back, a lot less so with 10. So in with the Ray Way and out with the 70 pound canoe pack as soon as I was sure I was going to get back on my feet at all. Mears also emphasises light travel. It's "all good" as the kids say.