Why didn't you guys tell me?!

I'm liking Fred's posts on the subject. Use them when appropriate, and they are a very good tool. Great with a cup stone for grinding billets, or quick chop-offs in hardened material. I've been a shop rat for ten years and not hurt myself very badly yet, which I attribute to giving the work (and tool) at hand my full attention. With an angle grinder you have to be thinking a bit about what will happen if the wheel catches, be watching to make sure you're not flexing the blade, etc.

They really are handy sometimes. I think the absolute best use for them is to take apart weldments with little structural damage.

The few times when I've hurt myself significantly at all, in retrospect, I should have known to do something differently. I've learned to be even more vigilant, and when I hear a little voice say "you could get hurt doing it this way" I listen, because I've heard that voice and not listened to it- right before getting hurt!
 
Fiddleback said:
I don't think a bandsaw is anywhere nearly as dangerous as an angle grinder. Anytime you take kickback off the list of tool dangers, it is big IMO. I'd guess that most bandsaw injuries are to fingers or hands. I can't figure out how to injure your face with one. You do have to consider and watch for broken blades though. And the guy in the 2nd link that got his neck slit and died, only way to do that with a bandsaw is with a running start.

http://www.head-face-med.com/content/4/1/1

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/killed-angle-grinder-144821/

I know your post wasn't directed at me, and wasn't intended to say that angle grinders are safe and cuddly. I just don't think the two tools you compared them to are nearly as hazardous.

Though, if you aren't wearing breathing protection, its all moot. You've skipped the first line of every tool safety warning label.
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I understand were you are coming from, I just see it differently. When I or someone else is injured while using any power-tool the first thing I ask is what were you, THE USER doing? 9 times out of 10 if that person is honest it was due to poor judgement

I would think we can all agree the vast majority of workshop injuries are due to operator error/stupidity, and I believe with that factor the actual "danger" of any particular tool is a moot point.

One of the above posts were the user states he cuts with one hand holding the work, and only one hand on the grinder. That is one of the most idiotic and stupid things I have ever heard, and that is just begging for a horrible accident. Stuff like that is what gets people hurt and sometimes killed, not the tool itself.
 
kailand09 said:
This makes me worry. I thought about going this route knowing someone who has one. It almost seems more worth it to wait longer to save up for at least the sears 2x42 as opposed to the safety hazards. Does it remove material all that much faster than a belt grinder?
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It does if you're cutting out blanks. It doesn't if you're grinding bevels.
 
kailand09 said:
This makes me worry. I thought about going this route knowing someone who has one. It almost seems more worth it to wait longer to save up for at least the sears 2x42 as opposed to the safety hazards. Does it remove material all that much faster than a belt grinder?
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It depends on what you want to get a tool for. If you want something to just cut out blanks and then clean them up and put the bevels on with a file a metal cutting bandsaw is the way to go. If you check this link to harbor freight the red one is and has been used by a lot of makers for many blades. Or you can get one like a DeWalt from Home Depot and make a stand for it. If you search the forums there are plenty of people who have made a stand for a portable one. Usually you can pick up a 20% off coupon pretty easily for HF.
 
Thanks for the suggestion. I've used band saws before, never an angle grinder. Keep to what I know.
 
When I first started I went with the Dewalt portaband and SWAG table. Great combo, but you can't make deep cuts. So when long cuts are called for I use the angle grinder. It's not a forgiving tool. I wear a heavy shop apron, eye pro, ear pro, respirator, heavy gloves, and ball cap. I fire extinguishers handy and focus on making good straight cuts without binding the disc. Workpiece is always clamped in a heavy-duty vice. If you don't have all of the above, and good grip strength, use something else.
 
rjfm1972 said:
I can tell you, from experience, that angle grinders and similar tools are VERY dangerous, and you should always wear full face protection when using them. I only had eye protection on when a faulty wheel blew apart and taught me a valuable lesson. 3 layers of stitches right to the cheekbone, and a permanent scar later. Use a belt grinder if you can.
Rickgash.jpg

DSC02212.jpg
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I'm sold! No angle grinder for me. Thes pics say it all!
 
While I like grinding out the odd blank for fun I'm not a knifemaker. I am, however, a metal fabricator and I can tell you with absolutely zero hesitation that I use an angle grinder only when no other tool will get the job done in a reasonable amount of time. Even then, I prefer flapper disks over solid wheels. 'Cutting' with the edge of a grinding wheel is probably the second dumbest thing you can do with a solid wheel, the first being home dentistry. Those RPMs are no joke and wheels can fail for no apparent reason while being used properly by a professional. To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, the picture below (taken just now) is the scar left by a sanding disk coming apart at full speed. The injury happened two months ago while using the tool properly with all the correct protective equipment including a welding jacket. I had severe abdominal bruising so bad that it could be seen clearly on the CT scan and could barely walk for a week.

Snapshot_20130321_zps29caa738.jpg



ETA: To the guy using a grinding wheel to cut blanks, say a general goodbye to all parts of your body, there's a good chance you'll lose one of them soon.
 
I have to admit, I'm surprised there isn't more carnage in this thread. LOL.

abrasive belts rarely turn into shrapnel slinging anti-personnel devices. Speed should never be your primary concern. With my KMG running at full-tilt-boogie and a 36 grit blaze, I can perfectly profile a mid to large size blank in about 3 - 3.5 minutes. It even turns out better than water jetting, because the edge is a perfect 90 degree angle, so it saves time down the road when it's time to work on the spines. Of everything I've seen and tried, it's the safest way to do it and gets plenty fast when you're doing 60 blanks at a time. Do yourself a favor, and do things safe, no matter how much longer it may take. Also, get a good respirator. The human body has a hell of a time dealing with the kind of dust we make.

[video=youtube_share;N6QLMUwVBeY]http://youtu.be/N6QLMUwVBeY[/video]
 
Dave Behrens said:
I understand were you are coming from, I just see it differently. When I or someone else is injured while using any power-tool the first thing I ask is what were you, THE USER doing? 9 times out of 10 if that person is honest it was due to poor judgement

I would think we can all agree the vast majority of workshop injuries are due to operator error/stupidity, and I believe with that factor the actual "danger" of any particular tool is a moot point.

One of the above posts were the user states he cuts with one hand holding the work, and only one hand on the grinder. That is one of the most idiotic and stupid things I have ever heard, and that is just begging for a horrible accident. Stuff like that is what gets people hurt and sometimes killed, not the tool itself.
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Use of an angle grinder for this kind of cutting IS idiotic and stupid. If you really need to use an abrasive disc for this kind of handheld cutting there is a small abrasive disc cutter that is used in automotive shops that uses a 3 or 4 inch diameter cutting wheel at lower RPM with a protective metal shroud to contain any shrapnel, and a lot lower torque motor (air powered) so it is much less likely to grab and kick. It does not have the brute horsepower of an angle grinder so it is slower going if you are doing long cuts. I have one that I use for plunge cuts on automotive sheetmetal that I picked up on sale at Harbor Freight for 12 bucks, and a pack of 10 discs was 9 bucks. I have 2 angle grinders that I use for things like grinding weld beads and flattening old anvils, a 4 1/2 inch and a 7 inch, so it is not like I don't have and use them, I just don't use them for stupid and dangerous things

-Page
 
stevewest said:
I am somewhat hesitant to venture into this area of the forum as I am not a knife maker. I do enjoy reading the threads started in this area and this one caught my eye. I work for a material supply company in the concrete construction industry. We sell alot of diamond blades for cutting concrete/masonry/asphalt. One of our suppliers has come out with a series of new products which basically consist of diamond cutoff wheels and grinding cups designed for steel. I have been demonstrating them recently and in my opinion, they eliminate alot of the problems encountered with resin/abrasive wheels. They cut considerably faster. The spark trail is around 75% less than that of the resin wheels. They almost eliminate the smell/dust you get with resin wheels. They do not lose depth of cut. They last approx 50 times longer. They are seem to be less noisy. The cut that you get with this product is much smoother - it does not seem to jump near as much as resin abrasive wheels. Probably most important, they are much safer as you should not experience any breakage as the shank is steel, not resin/fiberglass. I am not advocating/selling this to the members of this forum, simply introducing something that you may not be aware of. I have been demoing a 4" and 6" cutoff wheel and a 4" grinding cup - they do seem to be an innovative tool that is a step up from what has been available in the past. The price isn't exorbitant.
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Thanks for posting I will check with my industrial supplier and see what he's carrying.

Fred
 
Just so I am clear on that pic of my face, I was not making knives when that wheel blew apart. I have always had this opinion- "The right tool for the job".I wouldn't use something like that to make knives (especially since I have access to a machine shop). When that happened to my face, I was cutting a weld on an aluminum trailer I just finished making. When I was done with the trailer, I realized I had welded a beam about 1/8" too far in one direction and needed to shift it over. I put on a brand new cut-off wheel, started it up and about 1/3 of the wheel broke off before I even started cutting. So, it was not an angle grinder. It was a 4" diameter cut off wheel. Sorry if I confused or misinformed anyone.
 
Dave Behrens said:
I understand were you are coming from, I just see it differently. When I or someone else is injured while using any power-tool the first thing I ask is what were you, THE USER doing? 9 times out of 10 if that person is honest it was due to poor judgement

I would think we can all agree the vast majority of workshop injuries are due to operator error/stupidity, and I believe with that factor the actual "danger" of any particular tool is a moot point.

One of the above posts were the user states he cuts with one hand holding the work, and only one hand on the grinder. That is one of the most idiotic and stupid things I have ever heard, and that is just begging for a horrible accident. Stuff like that is what gets people hurt and sometimes killed, not the tool itself.
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Cool deal brother. Thanks for the exchange. I agree that its not the tool, its the tool operating the tool that causes the injury. Same with guns.
 
Fiddleback said:
Grease, please take this with a grain of salt as I do not mean to attack you, but you have one day of experience, and you have posted more than one questionable work habbit here in this thread. Yet now you are giving advice on how to use the tool we've all agreed is the wrong tool for the job. Please take a moment to slow down, and get safe shop habbits before you really hurt yourself or someone standing close by. Start with breathing protection. Please don't do any more knifemaking until you address this. And maybe just hold off on the advice column until you have a week or two under your belt. I apologize for that line immediately, but damn, Bladeforums is full of folks dishing out dumbass advise. Try your best not to be one of those. I promise that this post was not intended to ruffle your feathers. If they got ruffled, then I apologize one more time. Either way, I hope the best for you and your knifemaking.
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I'm legitimately confused now... An angle grinder cutoff disc is for cutting straight lines through metal. How is it stupid to use a tool for exactly what it was intended? I mean, how does it not make sense to cut a hexagon pattern around a curve you want cut, then round it off on a bench grinder?
 
The reason it's not the best tool Grease is because you are missing the point.

It's a tool that cuts a straight line through metal WITH A HIGH FAILURE RATE OF THE DISC. If the disc fragments at the wrong time today, tomorrow, next year, ten years from now you will stand a chance of getting hurt.

Then there's kickback.... Catch a couple edges at the same time and you can get cut fast.

So the point is, an angle grinder has risks.

So do most tools that cut steel. My Mom recently retired from a 30 year welding career. I started in a weld/fab shop full time when I was 14 and had to clean most of a guys arm off of a tailer when he learned about kickback. I also burned a 1" deep hole in my leg with a plasma torch.
I know some people say its only idiots who get hurt doing something they shouldn't....but that doesn't account for the thousands of guys who didn't grow up around power tools. Especially younger kids. They don't have the life experience and brain development to learn to listen to the "little voice".

What we do making knives is dangerous and limiting risk of major injuries should be a priority.
 
The main feature that makes angle grinders so dangerous is the very high speed at which they spin. This has been touched on but not really discussed, maybe the numbers will help paint the right picture for those who haven't experienced what this means. 3600 rpm is pretty typical for items like bench grinders, buffers, skillsaws and tablesaws. 10,000 to 15,000 rpm is typical for an angle grinder. Add to that the fact that the disks are designed to wear rapidly so that fresh abrasive is exposed, and because of this, are more or less bound to be out of balance at any given time.

With a frangible and unbalanced disk spinning at this kind of speed, you need to handle it like a piece of fine china dinnerware, and be aware that every time it comes into contact with another object, something is going to go flying. When everything goes right, the flying things are metal and abrasive dust. When everything dosen't go right, the flying things are dangerous and possibly deadly projectiles.

I use an angle grinder occasionally, but never casually, and never when there is another tool availible that will do the same job without significant drawbacks.
 
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It's a Darwinian thing.....................

You are obviously not getting it. We've tried to [size=+2]DRIVE THE POINT HOME[/size] for your benefit before you have an accident, as if the pics and stories weren't warning enough.

Some people just insist on playing with fire.

The fact that you claim to be be "legitimately" confused speaks to a stubborn streak that would rather debate safety then practice it. I think you're trolling us.

Syn
 
Lets not get too ahead of ourselves. I don't think he is trolling, I think he just does not understand that just because something exists, and has been done millions of times...doesn't make it any safer.

Lets look at it from some other perspectives:
Guns have been around for centuries, and despite that, dumb people shoot themselves and others by accident daily.
Almost anyone over nine knows where babies come from, and how to avoid that situation, but every day thousands of unwanted pregnancies and millions of cases of STDs happen.
Skateboards are given to little kids, and they all say to wear head, elbow, and knee protection. They also say not to skateboard downhill, in streets, or where injury might happen. Every day hundreds of children end up in the ER with broken limbs, severely cut, or killed when skateboarding without protective gear and good sense. My oldest son is almost 40, and feels like 80 because he skateboarded and did extreme sports and always said, " It won't hurt you if you are careful. Lots of people do this sport." A hip replacement at 30, knees that are worse than mine, metal plates in one arm, many fractures and cracked bones, and dozens of concussions have finally convinced him that I might have been right about the risks.
 
Forethought requires a different mindset than hindsight. Its human nature, some of us learn from doing, others learn from having it done to them. If someone shows you his scars, he is one that learns through hindsight:o

I feel your pain Stacy, my son did most everything I told him he should avoid. Hindsight?
 
Grease said:
I'm legitimately confused now... An angle grinder cutoff disc is for cutting straight lines through metal. How is it stupid to use a tool for exactly what it was intended? I mean, how does it not make sense to cut a hexagon pattern around a curve you want cut, then round it off on a bench grinder?
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No problem then, I must have misunderstood your post. Carry on and good luck with your knifemaking.
 
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