Why didn't you save the school children

[Chant]

Very well said, David!

 

[Dan Gray]

What I see as the problem is that while the absence of religion is not in of itself harmful, .

Dave that is all great for those that have no father to go than here on earth
but those that want to go on, that raft won't fly..at the vary least
kidds need to wonder, is there really someone looking down on us that knows of us what others don't?

 

[Chant]

we are tuning into another Babylon and we will pay for it..one way or the other that is clear.. of course as always JMHO

My humble opinion, too.

This thread reminds me of political discussions I have gotten into with staunch democrats and staunch republicans -- you can achieve liberty from the left or the right, and you can achieve authoritarianism from the left or the right. Right and left aren't nearly as important as the direction -- liberty or authoritarianism.

The same applies to religion -- you can achieve a good, kind world with religion or with non-sectarian humanism (or even atheism). Or you can achieve Babylon with religion or with humanism.

Unfortunately, IMHO, both the dems and the republicans are marching us right towards authoritarianism, and both the religious "right" and the non-religious liberal "left" are marching us towards Babylon.

Leaves me spending a lot of time planning and worrying about my kids' future. Sure hope I'm just a pessimist, and things get better.

 

[David Schott]

I ma just not convinced kids NEED to wonder if there is a God. I dont think theres any problem with it at all, but I dont think they need to wonder that in order to be taught how to be a decent person.

If I take all religions literally, when I die, I will probably be in about 5 different version of hell and maybe 20 versions of heaven, or reincarnated, or just rotting under the ground. Which one is true worrys me less so long as I know I am a good person while I am here.

Its a tough argument to have since those that believe certain rules will say those children are doomed to burn in hell while others will go to heaven based on what they believe alone. I just feel at my core it is much more than that, and not as easy (or hard) as that.

 

[Dan Gray]

I ma just not convinced kids NEED to wonder if there is a God. I dont think theres any problem with it at all, but I dont think they need to wonder that in order to be taught how to be a decent person.

If I take all religions literally, when I die, I will probably be in about 5 different version of hell and maybe 20 versions of heaven, or reincarnated, or just rotting under the ground. Which one is true worrys me less so long as I know I am a good person while I am here.

Its a tough argument to have since those that believe certain rules will say those children are doomed to burn in hell while others will go to heaven based on what they believe alone. I just feel at my core it is much more than that, and not as easy (or hard) as that.

it's simple and hard, I don't mean to sound like a preacher because I'm far from one..and have a long row to hoe myself.

Dave as long as you don't read the Bible you'll always have those thoughts un-answered, and where you are good why not find out the answers. what would it hurt,, But, on the other hand, what will it hurt if you don't..

there IS only one religion , to sort it out of what Satan has laid down for us is the hard part. there is noting wrong with feeling good about being good. ((Satan wants you to feel that way,,, the fence to walk,,,,))
but to go on after death, it's not good enough to just think you've been good,
our one God is more demanding than that,
if you don't find out for your self, your future is in your own hands and your kids..in the after life.
I'm sure now, you don't know many things about it and have many questions.
the bible is the book of life and does tell us how to live here also. it also says that man can not govern himself and goes on to say, pay Cesar what belongs to Cesar , which is the government and our taxes, we did this and he knew it was going to happen...as said, it is written, ignorance of the bible is not blitz, not even for the illiterate.

I'm done now, sorry guys ... I've said way to much of what most people are scared to listen too. I wonder why that is..

 

[David Schott]

No need to say sorry for anything! Its a tough argument from both sides and I'm glad it hasnt just turned into the usual back-and-forth. I've read the bible, but I've also read many other source texts of religions. Every religion thinks theirs is the correct one. At its foundings, Christianity was and is a millenarian set of beliefs just as many other religions are. I'll also stop with a final anecdote:

Way back in Chinese history, rulers were believed to have a direct connection to the gods. In one case, a plague had spread through some areas of China. That leader, unknowing of science or medicine, sent all his people out into the hills to meditate. What happened? The "bad" people never returned, while everyone else came back, heathy. The leader was then across the board proved to have a connection to the gods. In reality he quarantined his people and the sick died. Which is the truth? Does it matter?

Many religions have been crafted through thousands of years to present arguments that slap the face of any that bring question to it. I think its important to be aware of that...and while I do take offense when a believer tells me I am going to hell unless i repent and believe the same as them, I am happy to entertain that line of thinking only because I would be a hypocrite to assume that my thinking is right and theirs is wrong. No one can prove either way and both lines of thought rely on that inability to prove something in order to defend themself.

When I die, I will find out if I was wrong or right. If christians are right, there will be more people in hell than heaven. If buddhists are right, christians will most likely be reborn as animals, having wasted their chance at enlightenment, if jews are right, all us who are tatooed will be in trouble....its the biggest game of poker ever played. We all hold the cards we choose to keep and hope the cards we threw away werent the right ones....

 

[Mike Hull]

Dan, you speak of catholicism as though you were raised in it. If you weren't then I'd have to say you don't know very much about it.

I lived in the belly of the beast, so to speak and if you weren't there, you can't have the slightest idea of what I speak. You think catholicism is the only religion that abuses people? If you do, you're living in dreamland.

As far as fearing God, it ain't gonna happen. I won't pray to any God I fear. Fear breeds hate and that's why so many people today are turned off religion as they were raised on that fundamentalist BS.

I pray to a God of love.

It must be nice to sit up there at the right hand of God and pontificate to us mere mortals that will burn in hellfire for eternity if we don't immediately adopt your personal religious views.

That is exactly the type of religious intolerance I was referring to earlier. It's a small step from just verbal intolerance to actually hurting people.

It's just a short step from what you "think" we all "should", "ought" and "must" do as far as religion goes, to dictating it if given that power.

It goes back to what I said earlier, when religion comes to power, common sense goes out the window and brutality and injustice reign. I can see the beginnings of it in your pontificating speech.

Our founding fathers knew this from past history. That's why they tried to make certain it could never happened here.

Know why the pilgrims came here? It damned sure wasn't for religious freedom as they had that in the UK and Europe.
They came here as they were basically kicked out of England because they were persecuting other religions.
They came here to continue that persecution, culminating in the Salem witch trials, etc. That was the start downward for them and the beginnings of common sense in that part of the country.

You basically proved my point far better than I could have said it.

I'm truly sorry to see this side of your character. It's disappointing.

 

[David Schott]

Dave that is all great for those that have no father to go than here on earth but those that want to go on, that raft won't fly..at the vary least kids need to wonder, is there really someone looking down on us that knows of us what others don't?

I think most of the eastern half of the world would say the opposite...that you dont even need the raft to fly...and that is the whole point. Christianity has a very specific way of thinking about the afterlife..about 75% of the rest of the world has a different opinion. Hell is going to be a busy place, apparently.

 

[Dan Gray]

I see this has taken a turn of the worse:thumbdn:

.

Dan, you speak of catholicism as though you were raised in it. If you weren't then I'd have to say you don't know very much about it.

Mike just enough to know wrong of it..

You think catholicism is the only religion that abuses people?

no I didn't say that it was an example of one of many

As far as fearing God, it ain't gonna happen. I won't pray to any God I fear.

I don't fear God ,
the fear would be not being able to be with him after this life or where he wants me, we don't know yet..
you got what I'm saying all wrong Mike , if your past has blinded you to that, I'm the one that's truly sorry..

I pray to a God of love.

I am glad to hear that :thumbup: and he is nothing less..

It must be nice to sit up there at the right hand of God and pontificate to us

if you think for a min that is me Mike, we do sit on the wrong side of each other, that's sure sad to think about..

hellfire

Mike,, I sad nothing of the sort..?

I'm truly sorry to see this side of your character

no I'm afraid you didn't see any of what I said, you've twisted it up to what you want it to mean..that saddens me the most..


David it's funny you guys talk of hell, and I mentioned nothing about Hell do you all think there is one?? just wondering?
and I used the raft as a tool as you did..that's all.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,all this is to get one thinking about kids now a day. I did say don't listen to me, read the Good book did I not?..
it's a touchy point for sure..

all this was as I said,, My opinion if you can't take it that way
you yourselves are trying to do the very same thing to me as you THINK I'm doing to you.
I haven't pushed anything on anyone, just opened up thought on it.
the fear is great here as I see it..but as said it's JMHO and that's all..

 

[brash]

You are talking as if Christianity somehow stipulates that anyone who believes anything else is going to hell. There are huge differences in beliefs among Christians, and what you are describing is not a "Christian" rule, it is the belief of a subset of Christians.

Regarding the original post: As a Christian (Orthodox), I understand and somewhat agree with the point, but I think the story is totally inappropriate and inaccurate. It sounds way too much like Pat-Robertson-speak to me. God does not abandon schools -- whatever that might mean -- because politicians decide there is to be no prayer in schools. Where God is is not dictated by the actions of men. He abides in all of us, no matter how badly we sin. *We* abandon *Him*, and if we think forcing the church into schools is going to solve that problem, I think we are sadly mistaken.

I think that separation of church and state is *extremely* important because it protects *my* faith. As I said, though, I do agree somewhat with the point. I think too many people interpret separation of church and state as atheism wherever the state might be. Rather than separation, it is the state trumping God.

I agree much more with the point that society is to blame. I don't think this is much of a religion issue at all, personally, except in a general sense. People want to take less and less responsibility for things, including raising their children. They would rather put the burden on others (including the state), and then blame them when something goes wrong. So we end up with a combination of parents who don't raise their children well, and a society that can't even help raise the children well, because of potential repercussions of doing something "wrong."

 

[G L Drew]

OK, let me get on my soap box here too! I am not a "religious" man but I have very strong and personal beliefs: my relationship with my God is personal and private.

My wife and I raised three fine and moral sons who turned out just fine in spite of the mistakes we made along the way. Somehow they survived without God in school and learned the basics needed to function in this world: math, reading, social skills etc. We taught them about thier spiritual needs at home and in a church that we spent years searching for that had the right fit for our family. I never wanted govornment emplyees (teachers) instructing my children about God! What if this teacher's "God" wore horns and carried a pitch fork?

I am now 63 years old and I doubt that I will ever have the "Darned Kids Nowadays" attitude. Every day I come in contact with wonderful, well behaved children who are a huge asset to the world.

 

[R.Coon-Knives]

OK, let me get on my soap box here too! I am not a "religious" man but I have very strong and personal beliefs: my relationship with my God is personal and private.

My wife and I raised three fine and moral sons who turned out just fine in spite of the mistakes we made along the way. Somehow they survived without God in school and learned the basics needed to function in this world: math, reading, social skills etc. We taught them about thier spiritual needs at home and in a church that we spent years searching for that had the right fit for our family. I never wanted govornment emplyees (teachers) instructing my children about God! What if this teacher's "God" wore horns and carried a pitch fork?

I am now 63 years old and I doubt that I will ever have the "Darned Kids Nowadays" attitude. Every day I come in contact with wonderful, well behaved children who are a huge asset to the world.

I'm with you. People who look for "bad" kids through their soured attitude toward a world that doesn't live up to their standards, find them - paying attention to a few sensationalized instances and making all kids out to be that way. People who look for good kids see them. There's a lot of them but they aren't on Oprah, they're at home studying or working at their jobs.

 

[R.Coon-Knives]

More has changed in the world than taking prayer out of school - so you can't blame everything on that.

I wonder how many people who complain about the children today actually have any of their own and know what a job it is to raise kids these days. Anyone who says they can keep up with a couple of kids between the ages of four and 18, even under the best of conditions, definitly does not know what they are talking about.

When I grew up most men could go out and work one job and provide pretty well for their family. Now that we've got a global economy and are rid of most of those pesky unions, both parents have to work - maybe more than one job each. Having a roof and bread are pretty high priorities.

Don't tell me that kids just want more these days. Kids have always wanted more - whether it's an IPod or a Lionel train set or a new Schwinn bicycle.

If a parent can't be at home because of work they sure can't be spending time with their kids - praying or otherwise.

 

[David Schott]

After re-reading, my comments are off base in some cases. Obviously not all Christian beliefs state that all non-christians will go to hell. Personally, the concept of Hell is not something I believe in. The afterlife in general is not a concept that I claim to have any say in or opinion on. I think its a means to an end and a reason why to live a certain way while here....and for that reason I think it matters less what one believes and more how one applies those beliefs and translates them into a decent life on earth.

 

[Dan Gray]

OK lets stir up the pot..

OK, let me get on my soap box here too! I am not a "religious" man but I have very strong and personal beliefs: my relationship with my God is personal and private.

My wife and I raised three fine and moral sons who turned out just fine in spite of the mistakes we made along the way. Somehow they survived without God in school and learned the basics needed to function in this world: math, reading, social skills etc. We taught them about thier spiritual needs at home and in a church that we spent years searching for that had the right fit for our family. I never wanted govornment emplyees (teachers) instructing my children about God! What if this teacher's "God" wore horns and carried a pitch fork?

I am now 63 years old and I doubt that I will ever have the "Darned Kids Nowadays" attitude. Every day I come in contact with wonderful, well behaved children who are a huge asset to the world.

you have lucky kids for sure there are good kids ..
so you can't see it getting worse??

I am not a "religious" man but I have very strong and personal beliefs: my relationship with my God is personal and private

how can one have a relationship with God and not be religious?
this statement is a bit confusing..if you have a relationship with God
you'd be reading his word..and if you do you can't say you're not a religious man..
you don't have to be the pope or a preacher to be religious do you?

More has changed in the world than taking prayer out of school - so you can't blame everything on that.

I wonder how many people who complain about the children today actually have any of their own and know what a job it is to raise kids these days. Anyone who says they can keep up with a couple of kids between the ages of four and 18, even under the best of conditions, definitly does not know what they are talking about.

When I grew up most men could go out and work one job and provide pretty well for their family. Now that we've got a global economy and are rid of most of those pesky unions, both parents have to work - maybe more than one job each. Having a roof and bread are pretty high priorities.


If a parent can't be at home because of work they sure can't be spending time with their kids - praying or otherwise.

If a parent can't be at home because of work they sure can't be spending time with their kids - praying or otherwise

exactly,, I'm not sure the argument here..

being home for the last 20 + years for me has helped I'm sure.
my two boys are 22 and 25 .

when the kids are gone to school it don't matter if you're home or not.5 days a week for about 7 hours a day, the 2nd family teaches them.... school / Gov..and influence from the other kids.

here for the first part of the boys life the wife was here all the time
then both of us,,,
I made sure of it, and they needed it..the ones that don't care for their kids I see in our schools at least once a week still, to bad we have to loose those ones..hey I'm glad mine are out of there now...

 

[B . Buxton]

"Don't tell me that kids just want more these days. Kids have always wanted more - whether it's an IPod or a Lionel train set or a new Schwinn bicycle."

To heck with the kids, I want those things myself.

Since most parents have to work these days, it might be better said that its not how much time you have with your kids but what you do with your kids during the time you have that counts.. My wife worked nights and I worked days, so there was only one day a week that we were together all day, and that was only if I didn't go fishing or hunting, But my wife always insisted that we sit down every evening and have dinner as a family, and we always did until my son went off to college. You can discuss you and your childrens day, answer many questions and solve a lot of problems around the dinner table.

Bill

 

[NickWheeler]

I almost always spent Sundays fishing with my dad as a kid... I wasn't sitting in church.

Damn it anyway, what were they think'n?

Guess I can blame me being such a $hithead on that :jerkit:

 

[Dan Gray]

I almost always spent Sundays fishing with my dad as a kid... I wasn't sitting in church.

Damn it anyway, what were they think'n?

Guess I can blame me being such a $hithead on that :jerkit:

Nick, you bring up a very good point, you didn't know any better
so now,
what is your view about your maker, or did you come from apes

 

[B . Buxton]

Nick, I think your parents should be proud, you could have turned out a half-a$$ed $Hi!head in stead of a full fleged $hi!head, so I think they did good.

Dan, my mother always said a smart person doesn't discuss religion or politics for everyone has their own views and opinions and no 2 will usually ever agree. This women read the Bible several times not just once or twice.

You can have 1000 people read the Bible and each will interpret it differently.

Bill

 

[Dan Gray]

Nick, I think your parents should be proud, you could have turned out a half-a$$ed $Hi!head in stead of a full fleged $hi!head, so I think they did good.

Dan, my mother always said a smart person doesn't discuss religion or politics for everyone has their own views and opinions and no 2 will usually ever agree. This women read the Bible several times not just once or twice.

You can have 1000 people read the Bible and each will interpret it differently.

Bill

bill the poke may be true, I haven't been accused of being overly smart
you are right but that's where study comes in to play,, your mother I dare say
will say the bible will never contradict it self either, so if you don't know the right way it's meant you can find it else where in there, it's meant to be that way I think to make you study more.. it's not a easy read,,

I'm thinking many that do study and preach are smart and scholars of the subject too
no disrespect to your ma or you Bill,
but, you sure she didn't say, religion and politics ?

it sure can get you into trouble. doing both..
the point is if you were'nt taught it what's the chances your kids will get taught?

Nick I was pulling your leg I know it's gets your goat. to each his own.
ok I'm done..