Why do Emersons/Striders/Hinderers etc. cost so much more?

Pure supply vs. demand. Notice that the price for the Hinderer design, but ZT produced knives come in at the $270 +- arena, where as the XM series is several hundred more. ZT Employs more technicians and machinery that the Hinderer shop, therefore can produce them faster for a lower price. The other side is the name...and its exclusivity in the marketplace. Hinderer, Strider, Terozola, Dozier, Busse and the like, have a following that collect their products. For a collector, paying high dollar is the price to play in that sandbox. In the end, you get more, but in this day and age of computers, CAD/CAM machining and hyper-accurate EDM mills, you are paying a lot more for the name than the product.
 
Value is measured by the size of the buyer's wallet. What it is worth to you is what it is worth. My money, my choices only justify my purchases, no one else's.

Emerson customs, Hinderers, Busse, all go for less from the maker than the secondary market charges. That tells me that a lot of people share their choices in common. It doesn't mean these knives are going to be worth the price to you.

Value in the objective sense of materials and function is something else. That comes close to being measurable. Diminishing returns factors in here: these super-priced products are hard to justify in use.
 
I feel like Emerson knives should be taken out of the equation. It's very hard to rationalize Emerson prices when they use the same g10 as a lot of cheaper knives, cheaper steel, and ti-liners, and the issues so many have had with their f&f. At least with CRK, Strider, and Hinderer you get insane f&f. I can't justify spending 150+ on some Emerson knives when the Manix 2 uses the same materials, save the ti liners, and is 100+$ cheaper, and has the same, if not better, f&f.
 
These uber-knives are infused with awesomeness. Awesomeness does not come cheaply. :D

But seriously, a lot of it is fit and finish. There's a certain amount of handwork involved. Precise fitting, rounding of spines, etc. I can also attest that Strider's heat treatment of their blades equates to a definite performance advantage in comparison to mass produced production knives. These companies have excellent designs also, with better than average warranties.

The other side of the coin is an often reduced production quantity, in an attempt to keep the market price elevated. And let's face it. Demand is high enough to keep that price elevated at current production quantities.

But when it comes to a Hinderer, there's a lot of markup. It reminds me of trying to buy a Mayo years back. Absolutely wicked aftermarket markup.
 
devinsdad said:
Pure supply vs. demand. Notice that the price for the Hinderer design, but ZT produced knives come in at the $270 +- arena, where as the XM series is several hundred more. ZT Employs more technicians and machinery that the Hinderer shop, therefore can produce them faster for a lower price. The other side is the name...and its exclusivity in the marketplace. Hinderer, Strider, Terozola, Dozier, Busse and the like, have a following that collect their products. For a collector, paying high dollar is the price to play in that sandbox. In the end, you get more, but in this day and age of computers, CAD/CAM machining and hyper-accurate EDM mills, you are paying a lot more for the name than the product.
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Erm, I can't say I agree with that, having owned both the ZT 0551 and the XM-18. The XM-18 definitely had a higher level of "polish" to it. And while I didn't like the detent on it, everything else was certainly buttery smooth with a kind of finesse to it. Performance wise, they both split my apple piece when I try to cut it, so I can't say much for that. Though the recent Kershaw Tilt certainly showed off what they're capable of, the real test will be the ZT 0560/1 and whether they can keep that up in production. Because while the Tilt was certainly well done enough to be put up against $400 knives, I feel that piece was just a showcase piece and that Kershaw severely undercharged people in comparison to what it cost to make it. The same could be said for previous runs like the Speedform and the Volt, and the same could probably said for the upcoming ZT 0777.

As well, while CNC machining has improved the quality of knifemaking, I also feel that makes it more complicated at the same time. Who's qualified to use them? How good are they? How many do you have working for you? How much are their wages? Do these machines cost more to maintain?

While I felt I overpaid($660 for the XM-18 IIRC) for the Hinderer knife, if I had been charged the usual asking price of $385, I'd say it would be worth it 100%:thumbup:.
 
Some knives cost a lot more for no apparent reason. Emersons and Striders are more expensive than comparable products using the same or better materials, QC, customer service, and COO. But a lot of people think they're cool, and they're willing to pay for it because of the design. Other knives like CRK's are expensive because they're built more precisely than it matters for actual use, but again some people want that and are willing to pay for it. If you don't see anything about the knife that you like, there's no hidden secret that makes it worth it, and you're better off not getting it. But if for whatever reason a high end knife "speaks" to you (you usually have to handle it to determine this), then it becomes much easier to justify the price. Nothing wrong with spending more on a knife if you're happy with it.
 
RevDevil said:
Design, materials, and performance. All important and I am willing to pay a reasonable amount for these qualities.
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You are not paying for these qualities , you are paying for a name .
Design is a matter of taste only , but you can most definitively get better materials and significantly better performance from folders that cost less then half , or even third of the price of any of these 3 knives you posted .
 
hardheart said:
Design? No. Many production models are licensed customs. Many customs do not perform as well as pure productions.

Ergonomics? No. Same as the design, you can spit out 1,000 comfy handles as well as you can spit out 10 if that is your production target.

Function? No. They are folding knives. Folding knives fold and cut. You want to pry, you just need thicker blade stock and a large load bearing surface at the pivot. Knives still won't pry very well, but you can, and for less money.

Materials? No. Like powernoodle stated, same steel, Ti, and G10.

Performance? No. Lock strength, edge geometry, heat treat etc. can all be met/exceeded for less money.

Longevity? No. There are 30, 50, 70 year old knives on the market that still work fine. Their replacements from makers like Case would cost a fifth of these brands mentioned. Heck, they even come in stainless now.

Fit and finish? Maybe, depends on the brand and the model.

Exclusivity? Yes. They are priced out of the reach of most people, for a tool most people don't use (in the primary markets where they are even heavily regulated/banned), advertised in ways most people don't care about (particularly the military/service themes where very few can afford them on government pay scales)

Limited production? Some, yes. Goes with the exclusivity, but also means manufacturing costs are higher per unit, so retail price is also higher.

I personally don't put Emersons at the same level. I do think they are overpriced and don't have the materials & F&F to compete with Spyderco & Benchmade models of the same street price, but they aren't clearly priced in custom territory. I have owned several knives in Sebenza & XM price ranges, but they were all made to order.
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This post totally nail the sucker , I totally agree .
 
Noctis3880 said:
Erm, I can't say I agree with that, having owned both the ZT 0551 and the XM-18. The XM-18 definitely had a higher level of "polish" to it. And while I didn't like the detent on it, everything else was certainly buttery smooth with a kind of finesse to it. Performance wise, they both split my apple piece when I try to cut it, so I can't say much for that. Though the recent Kershaw Tilt certainly showed off what they're capable of, the real test will be the ZT 0560/1 and whether they can keep that up in production. Because while the Tilt was certainly well done enough to be put up against $400 knives, I feel that piece was just a showcase piece and that Kershaw severely undercharged people in comparison to what it cost to make it. The same could be said for previous runs like the Speedform and the Volt, and the same could probably said for the upcoming ZT 0777.
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350 to 400 is what a Tilt, will cost you on the secondary market right now. If Kershaw is selling the Tilt at an undercharge price, I for one wish they'd charge more, make more and sastisfy demand. I'd much rather pay closer to 300 to a dealer, for a Tilt than 350 or more to somebody just looking to capitalize on low production numbers on this desired hard to get knife.

(the Volt I just managed to get my hands on recently, it's a crying shame such a fine knife was only made in numbers of 260 or so! As soon as I held it I knew it was an all time great!)
 
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FrankRaz1114 said:
You are not paying for these qualities , you are paying for a name .
Design is a matter of taste only , but you can most definitively get better materials and significantly better performance from folders that cost less then half , or even third of the price of any of these 3 knives you posted .
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Have you ever even handled a Hinderer or CRK? I'm sorry, but what you absolutely won't get at less than 1/2 or 1/3 of the price is the precision and build quality of a Sebenza or XM.
 
JAB said:
Have you ever even handled a Hinderer or CRK? I'm sorry, but what you absolutely won't get at less than 1/2 or 1/3 of the price is the precision and build quality of a Sebenza or XM.
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Agreed. Actually I doubt you can find an identical knife to an Emerson for half the price, at least in regard to materials(titanium mostly) and the size. The ZT 0200 isn't quite titanium, and that makes it quite a brick in the pocket. I have to grudgingly give Emerson credit for making such a light knife for its size. Though perhaps that Benchmade Ti-Fender fits the bill. Not Made in the US though, something I'd want for a fair comparison.
 
I have many knives, some would say too many(my wife).I have spent real close to $400 on one blade(Turley Grand River)and have two more coming from Turley once my number comes up on the list.l can justify this after watching the man work his magic on you tube.He puts quite a bit of work in each tool he designs and creates.I am a union boilermaker by trade and have been a construction superintendent for about three and a half years now.I know full well what I get paid an hour and after watching Iz do his thing I think he is under paid.I have developed a strong interest in the Sebenza.I have known about it a long time but couldn't justify the cost.I am a huge spyderco fan and as I write this I have several at home,4 on the way and a dlc manix2 in my pocket .I feel Spyderco is a quality product for the $.
I rarely post here unless its to say "ill take it" but this seems to be a never ending subject and I have (like everyone else)opinion on it that I felt like sharing.Just my 2 cents I guess.I feel like a man or woman should get what they can get for their efforts but on the other hand I don't think its right that folks get millions to dribble basketballs while others risk life and limb to preserve the right for that guy to dribble.I have fell victim to the hype.however and am presently waiting on a large CRK insingo.I want to be able to say for myself whether or not it is worth the money you got to shell out for one.It will be hard to detour me from what I am accustomed to. Just hope that I am not underwhelmed.However whatever my opinion is of the knife it is just that an opinion.i still encourage everyone to buy what they want and sing its praises at the top of their lungs.You will get no argument from me one way or the other as long as no one is getting hurt.If a man thinks he has the best and that its worth what he paid for it thats good for knife owners and the industry all the way around in my opinion.Its good to be competitive in a competitive market.Having said all that I will end with this.My father always said that if you get what you want then you got a good deal.
 
hardheart said:
Design? No. Many production models are licensed customs. Many customs do not perform as well as pure productions.

Ergonomics? No. Same as the design, you can spit out 1,000 comfy handles as well as you can spit out 10 if that is your production target.

Function? No. They are folding knives. Folding knives fold and cut. You want to pry, you just need thicker blade stock and a large load bearing surface at the pivot. Knives still won't pry very well, but you can, and for less money.

Materials? No. Like powernoodle stated, same steel, Ti, and G10.

Performance? No. Lock strength, edge geometry, heat treat etc. can all be met/exceeded for less money.

Longevity? No. There are 30, 50, 70 year old knives on the market that still work fine. Their replacements from makers like Case would cost a fifth of these brands mentioned. Heck, they even come in stainless now.

Fit and finish? Maybe, depends on the brand and the model.

Exclusivity? Yes. They are priced out of the reach of most people, for a tool most people don't use (in the primary markets where they are even heavily regulated/banned), advertised in ways most people don't care about (particularly the military/service themes where very few can afford them on government pay scales)

Limited production? Some, yes. Goes with the exclusivity, but also means manufacturing costs are higher per unit, so retail price is also higher.
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This should be stickied somewhere IMHO.
 
JAB said:
Have you ever even handled a Hinderer or CRK? I'm sorry, but what you absolutely won't get at less than 1/2 or 1/3 of the price is the precision and build quality of a Sebenza or XM.
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Sorry sir but you need to reread my post .
I talked about materials and performance , not precision and build quality .
I buy knives in order to use them , not to look at them or store them inside a damn safe .
The "precision" and "build quality" of your CRK and Hinderer are not making them perform any better then my BM 806 M390 .
My 200$ BM 806 have a significantly better steel , significantly stronger and more reliable lock , significantly faster opening and also significantly lighter then your CRK and Hinderer as well .
I would take my 806 over your Hinderer and CRK any day of the week , and yes I handled both the XM18 and the Umnumzaan .

Noctis3880 said:
Agreed. Actually I doubt you can find an identical knife to an Emerson for half the price.
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You are right , I can't get identical knife to an Emerson for half the price , I can get better , far stronger, more reliable knife for 1/4 of the price such as CS Lawman .
That CS would also have way better fit and finish then your 200$ Emerson .
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Value is measured by the size of the buyer's wallet. What it is worth to you is what it is worth. My money, my choices only justify my purchases, no one else's.

Emerson customs, Hinderers, Busse, all go for less from the maker than the secondary market charges. That tells me that a lot of people share their choices in common. It doesn't mean these knives are going to be worth the price to you.

Value in the objective sense of materials and function is something else. That comes close to being measurable. Diminishing returns factors in here: these super-priced products are hard to justify in use.
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Bingo. Esav nailed it right here.

It has been demonstrated that, as people make more money and ascend in the social class structure, they tend to increase their spending as well. They will buy more expensive clothing, food, accessories, toys, entertainment, etc. to reflect their rising economic status.

Let your needs and your wallet decide what constitutes a "reasonable expense". It's going to be different from person to person. If all you need a knife that cuts, you'll get something that is inexpensive and functional. If you have some expendable income, you'll likely buy someting which also has status associated with it, like the knives you mentioned in your original post.
 
Talk about reverse elitism, this thread is almost laughable with some of these responses. Lets see if we can summarize some of the responses given to the original question.

1. Custom knife makers should all quit making their knives and go to work for one of the 3 or 4 major companies.
2. Small companies should also close their doors as they are offering inferior products for inflated prices.
3. If you buy either a custom knife or from one of the 3 aforementioned makers/shops, you're either stupid or you're trying to impress somebody.

If you're satisfied with your BM's, great. They're a good knife, I've owned several and have no complaints about them. Same goes for Spyderco's, Kershaws and Bucks. There are a couple of knifemakers and companies that I've got no use for but thats my preferences and I'm not about to slam them in public. All three of the makers mentioned have contributed a lot to the knife industry and offer a knife that fills a niche. If you like them, go for it, if you don't, don't and if you're not sure, handle one and make up your own mind.
 
FrankRaz1114 said:
I buy knives in order to use them , not to look at them or store them inside a damn safe .
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Neither do I...I USE my Striders, Umnumzaan, and even the CQC-12 (never see anyone using those for some reason).
Some people buy $80 knives and stick them in a safe, or knifesturbate while watching action movies, murmuring to their "precious."
Then there are those who, like myself, enjoy quality AND using the damn things.
Why do I spend $400-$500 on a single knife? Why don't you try explaining why you spent $80 on a knife to the average guy in the street; they'll think you are an idiot of epic proportions for spending so much. "Why didn't you get one for $20? Or $10?"

It's about what you want. I want more knives (I have a $40 one on the way, try to understand that without your brain imploding;)).
 
Definately the law of diminishing return. I agree that it can be said about most things. I come from the Hi-Fi audio world. We would sell speakers for $100 a pair to well over $50,000 a pair. The ultra high end components weren't 500 times better but to some people it was worth it.

You could bring up this topic with almost any hobby. Audio, cars, booze, food, etc...

Hell. I could buy 3 sebenzas for the price of a pair of headphones I own.

To each their own :)
 
I find it amusing that not a single knife photo posted so far in this thread looks like the knife has ever so much as cut open an envelope. Do you guys ever actually use your knives or just rearrange them on desks for cameras?
 
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