Why do people seem anti-CNC?

Sesoku

Sesoku

Joined
Oct 19, 1998
Messages
498
I notice that many custom makers emphasize that they do not use CNC machines. Why is this? I understand to a certain extent the appeal of a totally "handmade" knife, but when tools are available to increase accuracy, what is the problem with using them? Do makers who do not use CNC machines feel that the ones who do have "sold out"?
 
As a person that buys handmade knives, I love the small differences that occur between different examples.

If you look at the Emerson forum and the amount of debate that goes on about the differences in grind on the CQC6 that appear from year to year and knife to knife.

I have a number of Brend Model 2 ground knives. Part of the pleasure of ownership is looking at the differences in the grind lines.

When a CNC machine is used, you may as well buy a production knife as they will all turn out exactly the same. This is not a bad thing and provides a way of getting consistant production - but this is not what I am buying.

Regards,

Ed
 
Sesoku,

You raise a very interesting question! I do hope that the responses will not degenerate into yet another discussion of what a "custom" knife is.

My guess (and I'm not that familiar with CNC machines) is that the set up and programming of a CNC machine is only cost effective for making multiple knives that are the same or very similar. Such knives would by some definitions not be "custom" just because multiple pieces are made in a production manner.

Personally, I prefer CNC made knives in many ways. Tolerances can be much tighter which leads, IMHO, to very predictable performance of mechanisms like locks on folders. Just so long has there is full disclosure of how a knife is made, I'm all for CNC.

I hope that your post spurs a lot of discussion. Cheers! -Alan
 
Machines are EVIL, hands are GOOD:eek: Not really, it comes down to the difference between the oil Painting and the lithograph. my .02
 
Yeah, let's do this again. Why bother with the search feature...

If a maker has employed his vision, skill, experience, and effort, millimeter by millimeter, to a knife, I see warmth and life - the maker's imparted into the steel. I value that and I pay for it.
 
With all the discussions we have had.
It boils down to three things.

  • What the maker wants to do.
  • What the collector wants.
  • Honesty about the making of the knife.
 
I had this discussion with many at the Guild Show, to include some of the memebers of the Guild Board of Directors (they asked).

CNC's are primarly used for the handles, not the blades. Although, you can cut grooves and do the designs on the blades with a CNC.

Next, CNC's are primarly used on knives in the $100 - $550 range. After that, it is no longer cost effective to use them for most makers.

CNC's as well as laser (and other like technology) provide makers to keep the cost down and the quality up. For many buyers, in particular entry level buyers, this is very important.

Guys if you take away a CNC and laser type technology, all those nice tactical folders now start at about $650.00. This would almost guarantee the custom knife market would shrink back to it's size of 8 years ago. Those of us who make, buy, sell and collect custom knives do not want that.

Many makers are saying they do not use CNC machines to let people know they do not use computer assisted technology. However, what about that end mill, micro lathe and Pantograph? What about the jigs that are used by makers who do not "computer assisted technology"?

As Gus points out, it is for each collector to buy what they like. It is your money and you should get what you like. Just do your homework and know what you are getting.

I was at the Guild Show business meeting and Ron Lake hit the nail on the head. To paraphrase he said, the N in CNC stands for numeric. This applys to the members of the Guild....the number of maker who worry more about what the other guy is doing and not enough about what they are doing is to high. He then held up a Dollar Bill and said the other problem is that some makers are brining in more of these than other makers. Ron was right on with his comments.

I think as long as the maker is honest with this clients and potential clients as to how they make the knife then everyone should be happy.
 
I have nothing against the use of a CNC machine. If when I buy a knife I am getting one that is a set pattern I kind of expect a CNC machine to be used. If I am buying a knife that the maker and I worked together on and the design of the blade is to my specifications then it would not be likely that a CNC machine could be used for this purpose.

What Gus has posted says it all for me. As long as the maker is honest, and I find that all that I have dealt with to this point have been, then it is up to me if I want to purchase that knife.

There is room in the knife industry for good knives made by any means. It is up to the buyer to choose which one is right for him.
 
I know for a fact some art knife makers who get parts CNC'd on knives that cost a LOT more than $550!! :(
 
Mayo,

who? i would like to hear some names if you have solid proof that they do this. i would also like to hear why it should make any difference if that maker is honest and tells his customers the facts and the customers is happy with that and buys the knife.
this sounds like the past 3-5 Guild meetings that have beaten this thing to death yet accomplished absolutely nothing. imho the Certificate of Origin that the Guild issued to each maker should have taken care of this problem once and for all.
certificate or not it still all boils down to each makers honesty about his knives.
 
then dont bring it up! this is exactly whats happening in the Guild right now, people complain and whine about stuff yet wont give names or proof! so why even bring it up???
 
My post was in reply to what Les said about $500 folders....
You and I BOTH know that this is a small world.....and a promise like that needs to be kept!! :p
There is enough controversy about this subject without me inviting a pile of crap upon my head!!!!!!!! :)
 
Okay, I haven't really thought about this for a little while. I'm a very "buy what I like" kind of guy. I have two knives made by knifemakers that I know for a fact used CNC. Ken Onion Midtech Boa and Rick Hinderer Wildfire (CNC on both knives done by Rick). I love these knives! The makers were totally honest and open about what parts were and weren't done with CNC. Heck, on the midtech boas I even got to see the box full of parts!

I guess for me, it boils down to honesty. If I like a knife, and the maker, I really don't care sooo much what technologies are used, as long as they are upfront about their process. Heck, if we want a handmade knife, I'd like to see someone go and mine the ore to make the steel, and pound the blade out with a rock or something. Knifemakers use tools, and CNC machines are some of the new tools.

~Mitch
 
People are anti cnc for one of two reasons.
1. They don't feel that programming it and punching buttons and watching the machine do the work is the same as grinding or cutting things by hand.

2. Because I don't have a cnc outfit to help me make better knives! :(
 
Isn't it really.....

"I don't care if you use a magic wand - as long as you don't make more money than me!"?

(I agree with Tim. This is getting old!)
 
Tom, I understand you were just responding to my post. Which is why I worded as I did...most CNC use is in the $100 to $500 range. Of course there are makers who use a CNC machine that charge more money than $500.00 for a knife.

That is what hurt the custom knife industry about 10 years ago. When collectors found out that some very well known makers were using a CNC machine. What got them in trouble was not the fact that they were using the machine, it was the fact that the collectors did not know exactly what they did.

I heard stories of a maker throwing a piece of steel into this machine pushing a button. Then he went and watched TV for an hour, came back out and there was one side of an interframe folder done...Perfect. Repeat process and within 4 hours you have a $1,2000 interframe complete and ready to sell.

Today, we all know this is BullS**T, but about 10 years ago this mis-information caused many higher end collectors to leave custom knives. The mis-information about a CNC also helped contribute to the collapse of the interframe market.

Tim is correct, if your not prepared to name names, then just let it go. Perhaps this is something the Guild Board of Directors needs to talk with this maker(s) about. Not to sanction but to insure truth in advertising. I belive that is what the certificates were on the table of each Guild member in attendance for.

For those of you who were not at the show, the Guild handed to each knife maker a sheet to be displayed on their table listing exactly what machines they use to make their knives. The Guild was not passing judgement, only looking for a way to inform the customers. I thought this was an excellent start.

Someone at the business meeting volunteered to bring a CNC machine to the next Guild Show so people can watch what it can and cannot do. I think that is an excellent idea.

Technology is here to stay. I suspect in the not to distant future there will be one machine. That you just put the materials you are going to use into the machine and this machine will, be able to cut, drill, grind, heat treat and povide products ready to assemble. With little or no human involvment at all.

I wasn't around when makers first started using band saws to cut their blades. However, if the Guild had been formed then, Im sure at the business meeting those makers who used a hack saw to cut out blades would have complained as well.

There are many people who make their living within custom knives. If technology avails itself that will help a maker:

Produce a superior knife

Get more money for that knife

Spend less time making that knife

There by increasing their bottom line.

They are going to use it.

Technology is always advancing. There is someone who is always going to use it. As long as there is "truth in advertising" as to who the knife is made. Then ultimately the consumer will determine for the makers what is acceptable.
 
Originally posted by tom mayo

You and I BOTH know that this is a small world.....and a promise like that needs to be kept!! :p
There is enough controversy about this subject without me inviting a pile of crap upon my head!!!!!!!! :)
Click to expand...

Tom,
you know of a maker that covers up or doesn't even mention his use of using a cnc machine to his customers and you agree with keeping that a secret??? so you agree with his dishonesty?
imho you have already invited a pile of crap on your head by even bringing this up then continuing the dishonesty:( is he ashamed of using cnc to help him make his knives that he wants it to be a secret? is honesty to his customers not really important?
i just don't understand thinking like this and i believe this is why the Knifemakers Guild is in trouble and has lost much of its respect and prestige:( its too bad people can't just be honest about their work and lose some of the greed for the almighty dollar. there should be NO SECRETS in knifemaking
 
Good for you Tom, a man of his word.

I have a $2000.00 knife which the maker used CNC equipment to mill parts of. I'm glad he did because the tolerances he was able to achieve are remarkable. I imagine it gave him more time to fit these parts together too.
 
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