Why do people seem anti-CNC?

Tim, just let it go. It has nothing to do with honesty unless the maker himself is asked that question and gives a false answer. Tom is honoring a promise not to discuss the matter in public; his doing otherwise would be dishonest.

The Guild does not limit the machinery that may be used by a maker, so long as he uses it himself or discloses that he did not.

The rule states:

"(Member) shall not take credit for work which he did not do. Knives offered for sale must be made by the maker or specified otherwise."

The form we all had on our tables in Orlando required that we list those aspects of the knife we didn't do ourselves. It didn't ask what tools or machines we use.

I happily disclosed I did not do my own heat treating or make my own mosaic pins or sheaths. Had I a shop full of lasers and CNC machines, it was/is not required that I list that, but I would be required to disclose such if asked.

Bottom line: honesty!

Now leave Tom alone or I'll have to kick your butt next time I see you! :D
 
Technology is here to stay. I suspect in the not to distant future there will be one machine. That you just put the materials you are going to use into the machine and this machine will, be able to cut, drill, grind, heat treat and povide products ready to assemble. With little or no human involvment at all.
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It gets better than that. Another 10 years or so and you'll be able to create a knife in 3 dimentions on a computer (already doable of course), and then watch it be assembled molecule by molecule in three dimentions, the whole knife! Not so difficult for something simple like a fixed blade. Perhaps more difficult for more complex mechanisms, but in the case of folders, all the parts could be created this way at least. In case you are wondering, this technology is already available and producing 3 dimentional models of things in plastic, so if you wanted a plastic knife, this could already be done.

On the subject of the original question (good thread by the way), I can see it both ways. If I buy a custom or semi-custom knife for USING, I don't care if CNC is used presumably because it will result in a very high-quality product at a resonably low cost. An art knife or other pure collectable would be another story perhaps, but I don't get into those (yet).

I just learned that my G. Tichbourne has been sent to me (yay!). Its an integral and although I didn't ask, I would be very suprised if George didn't use CNC. For the price of that knife, I can't imagine him milling an integral by hand!
 
I have nothing against CNC. I agree with the idea of letting the customr know how you are making the knife. Technology will get to the point very soon where the average person wil be able to buy a small CNC unit at SEARS. Large industry can already enter the the dimensions of something to be made into a computer and the piece is done with no hands on. From the equipment I've seen doing this, a fixed blade knife could be almost completely done without a hand touching it.

You're not going to stop the advance in technology. Makers just need to be up front with their customers. I personally appreciate a knife that requires more "hands on" labor than one that doesn't.
 
First off, I am totally anti CNC and hydro or laser cutting! Do I mind another maker using it? No. But it will NEVER be allowed in my shop. Period.

Second, who ever said that a maker can't push a button and come back in a couple hours to a completed scale has not seen the break throughs made in the past couple years. Not only will it be all purty and polished, it will be done in five or ten minutes. These machines are so smart they know when their bits are dull and will replace them with fresh ones and be sharpening the dull ones while still milling. I have seen with my own two eyes a CNC mill out an articulated camera style iris from one piece of metal. There is no reason they could not mill a complete knife in the same manner.

I feel very strongly that a knife made with the aid of CNC is NOT handmade. It can be custom, but not handmade. How can it be "handmade" when the work is turned over to a computor. I don't care who programed it. HAND is a major part of the word HANDmade. It is not the makers eye or the makers hand controlling the operation. It is gears and pistons and servos all controlled by a little chip, not by the maker. A non-CNC mill is fine, it is the maker moving the cranks and levers. A drill press is fine, it is the maker holding (or clamping) the object and lowering the bit by hand.

Everything I do in my shop is with my hands and my eyes. If I let it be controlled by a computor to make more money, I should just go and work for Frost or Valor!
 
I'm with you Sesoku! I don't know what the big deal is. If this is the case, then what about the first maker to use a lathe, band saw, or a drill press.<p>Come on guys... It's called progress!:)
 
Nothing inherently wrong with CNC Machines (mills etc).

I own a CRK sebenza, and I like it a lot. It was made with CNC machines. I knew this when I bought it.

I now prefer handmade customs because I appreciate the skill that went into making it. I do not consider the manual use of power tools to violate this as the maker must physically control each step. My handmade Mayo TNT is different than every other one made. It is unique and it was made for me! I like that. I am willing to pay a premium for that. Some don't care and that is ok too.


So lets throw several contentious ideas together in one thread :p

"What is the difference between CRK using CNC aided machining with the help of a few employees and a custom maker who uses CNC aided machining +/- an apprentice or two???"


This is the problem as I see it. With both you have entered the realm of manufacturing. Both may result in a fine product. People knock on CRK or Whitewing not being "custom" while a custom maker who utilizes the same methods is extolled as a "custom". I don't real care what you call them but one must recognize there isn't much difference in their making and both can produce quite a few more blades than the handmade guy.

The use of CNC and other automated (or outsourced methods) greatly enhances productivity. While this can lessen the cost for the buyer and increase the profit for the maker (both great things I might add), it decreases the rarity and uniqueness of each piece. If all you are looking for is a great using piece at a good price this might not matter. However with so many blades being touted as investments or collectibles one needs to be aware of this. Do you think you people would pay the same price for a Moran or Lake piece if there were 250 other exact copies out there? You must ask yourself that question.

I think the KMG and makers in general should differentiate between makers who utilize automated processes and those that don't. Both are perfectly fine ways to make knives but there is a difference! It should be plainly stated if "mass production" methods are used and one should not have to ask. The buyer can than make up their own mind.
 
My sentiments exactly!
There are "custom" knife shops where the only thing that happens is the "knifemaker" assembles the parts and *maybe* grinds the blade. I cant live with that!
 
I see your point Dan, and it is a very good one indeed, and I agree with you to a point. You made reference to Moran and Lake, and you are talking about knives that cost many $$$$$. Would his knives be worth any less if he used a CNC machine for something? I could be wrong and please correct me if I am Dan, but these makers that you have mentioned only make fixed blades I think. They are a little easier to make by hand than a Folder, or an auto.<p>I'm sure there are high end folder, and auto makers out there that use a CNC machine for some parts, but yet they are the sole authors of their knives, and their knives are custom. To me, makers like Moran are eccentric, and like the old ways, and they like to make their knives that way, they don't want to move into the twenty-first century. I'm not trying to be smart Don, because Moran is a great maker, and he is the grandfather of modern forging, but he, and his knives are an acquired taste.:)
 
Me too Jerry. Real old :D
 
Originally posted by narruc1
I see your point Dan, and it is a very good one indeed, and I agree with you to a point. You made reference to Moran and Lake, and you are talking about knives that cost many $$$$$. Would his knives be worth any less if he used a CNC machine for something?
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I'd love to hear them answer that.

Originally posted by narruc1

I could be wrong and please correct me if I am Dan, but these makers that you have mentioned only make fixed blades I think. They are a little easier to make by hand than a Folder, or an auto.<p>
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Which makes fully handmade folders and autos, and the makers who produce them, all the more impressive. The most precise folder I own was made completely by hand by Bailey Bradshaw. Michael Lamprey hand machines every item down to the screws. Neither knife cost me more than a Sebenza with moderate decoration.

Originally posted by narruc1

I'm sure there are high end folder, and auto makers out there that use a CNC machine for some parts, but yet they are the sole authors of their knives, and their knives are custom.
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Matthew Lerch was a good example. He did one-off autos on CNC (Including wild powdered metal graphical steel) for a couple of years. They were spectacular. They ran between $3000 and $5000. He stopped doing them because they were no fun and too expensive.

Originally posted by narruc1

To me, makers like Moran are eccentric, and like the old ways, and they like to make their knives that way, they don't want to move into the twenty-first century. I'm not trying to be smart Don, because Moran is a great maker, and he is the grandfather of modern forging, but he, and his knives are an acquired taste.:)
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Agreed that his knives are an acquired taste - aesthetically. But to call forgers eccentric? Strange how the ABS keeps growing...
 
Stand CORRECTED!!
Ron Lake has been making near PERFECT folders for well over 20 years without the use of a CNC machine!
 
that because a maker uses power driven tools, band saw, grinder etc. as long as the makers hand "controls" the piece being worked, it's hand made. The maker pushing a button or programming a machine IMO does not equal the maker controling te piece and is therefore not truly hand made.
 
I would LOVE to have a great big 25 axis turbo plasma digital graphic magic wireless CNC machine in my shop! I would certainly tell which knives or guns were made on it though. So there!:p
 
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