Why does CPM-M4 dominate in national cutting competitions?

nozh2002 said:
Nothing there about steel used in competition.

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...

It's been dominated by knives made in CPM-M4. In the majority of these competitions, any type of chipping on the edge is automatic disqualification.
 
cotdt said:
It's been dominated by knives made in CPM-M4. In the majority of these competitions, any type of chipping on the edge is automatic disqualification.
Click to expand...

And you assume that this is the reason why ZDP189 or CPM S90V were not present?
As I sad before - ZDP189 is not as available as other steel and CPM S90V require special furnace for HT. So this is for me more realistic reasons why CPM M4 was dominated in national competition.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
And you assume that this is the reason why ZDP189 or CPM S90V were not present?
As I sad before - ZDP189 is not as available as other steel and CPM S90V require special furnace for HT. So this is for me more realistic reasons why CPM M4 was dominated in national competition.

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...

Do you have documentation to prove that? Have you talked or emailed (Some type of correspondence) with any "Cutting competition" Champions/winners?

Many of the competitors make their own knives & sell them (Some) & they're pretty expensive. If ZDP-189 or S90V was SO good as you have claimed in many of your posts, then why isn't it (Or Dozier's D2 for that matter, which you claim is the best) in these competitions? Don't you think if a type of metal was so much better than others they'd test & use it? I think they would.

I think it has more to do with what others have been saying, that a tough steel is needed that can take a sharp edge as well as hold it. For some odd reason when people mention their ZDP blades chipping, you ignore them & say it's only 1 incident. If it didn't happen to you, then it didn't happen. Sorry, but until you go out & compete in one of those cutting competitions, then your opinion, regarding cutting competitions, really means nothing. By your own definition, you don't have any proof.

Now, am I saying that ZDP-189 or S90V wouldn't do well? Maybe, but if it'll chip on a folder, it's going chip on a large blade. Keep in mind the steels used are NOT laminates like that used on the Yuna Hard that you love so much (It is a very nice knife). As has been mentioned, if the blade chips, they're DQ. Competitors aren't going to use it if it'll chip.

But forget all that, why aren't they using Dozier's D2? After all, you said it's the best & we all know it must be true since you discount everyone else's opinion.

Now, getting back to the OP question, I haven't gotten a clue, but I can't wait for my BM 760 M4 to get back to me...:D
 
CL01 said:
Do you have documentation to prove that? Have you talked or emailed (Some type of correspondence) with any "Cutting competition" Champions/winners?

Many of the competitors make their own knives & sell them (Some) & they're pretty expensive. If ZDP-189 or S90V was SO good as you have claimed in many of your posts, then why isn't it (Or Dozier's D2 for that matter, which you claim is the best) in these competitions? Don't you think if a type of metal was so much better than others they'd test & use it? I think they would.

I think it has more to do with what others have been saying, that a tough steel is needed that can take a sharp edge as well as hold it. For some odd reason when people mention their ZDP blades chipping, you ignore them & say it's only 1 incident. If it didn't happen to you, then it didn't happen. Sorry, but until you go out & compete in one of those cutting competitions, then your opinion, regarding cutting competitions, really means nothing. By your own definition, you don't have any proof.

Now, am I saying that ZDP-189 or S90V wouldn't do well? Maybe, but if it'll chip on a folder, it's going chip on a large blade. Keep in mind the steels used are NOT laminates like that used on the Yuna Hard that you love so much (It is a very nice knife). As has been mentioned, if the blade chips, they're DQ. Competitors aren't going to use it if it'll chip.

But forget all that, why aren't they using Dozier's D2? After all, you said it's the best & we all know it must be true since you discount everyone else's opinion.

Now, getting back to the OP question, I haven't gotten a clue, but I can't wait for my BM 760 M4 to get back to me...:D
Click to expand...

I don't think it can be put any clearer than that.

Completely accurate to the T, and quoted again for truth.
 
Broos said:
A through hardened M4 blade is more likely to fail in a catastrophic mode than a differentially hardened 52100 knife,
Click to expand...
Why when the through hardened blade will require more force to move past the elastic range? A baseball bat made from play-doh won't shatter, but I think I would prefer one made from carbon fiber.

Have any of the competition cutters suffered any damage beyond edge chipping that leads to DQ?
 
CL01 said:
Do you have documentation to prove that? Have you talked or emailed (Some type of correspondence) with any "Cutting competition" Champions/winners?

Many of the competitors make their own knives & sell them (Some) & they're pretty expensive. If ZDP-189 or S90V was SO good as you have claimed in many of your posts, then why isn't it (Or Dozier's D2 for that matter, which you claim is the best) in these competitions? Don't you think if a type of metal was so much better than others they'd test & use it? I think they would.

I think it has more to do with what others have been saying, that a tough steel is needed that can take a sharp edge as well as hold it. For some odd reason when people mention their ZDP blades chipping, you ignore them & say it's only 1 incident. If it didn't happen to you, then it didn't happen. Sorry, but until you go out & compete in one of those cutting competitions, then your opinion, regarding cutting competitions, really means nothing. By your own definition, you don't have any proof.

Now, am I saying that ZDP-189 or S90V wouldn't do well? Maybe, but if it'll chip on a folder, it's going chip on a large blade. Keep in mind the steels used are NOT laminates like that used on the Yuna Hard that you love so much (It is a very nice knife). As has been mentioned, if the blade chips, they're DQ. Competitors aren't going to use it if it'll chip.

But forget all that, why aren't they using Dozier's D2? After all, you said it's the best & we all know it must be true since you discount everyone else's opinion.

Now, getting back to the OP question, I haven't gotten a clue, but I can't wait for my BM 760 M4 to get back to me...:D
Click to expand...

Well original poster make a guess - he think this is because CPM M4 is better. He did not provide any proves, he did not speak or e-mail or whatever you telling me to do. I make another guess to demonstrate that nothing is clear here - if you read my post I sad that this guess is mot realistic to me.

The fact that national competition uses this or that steel may indicate good steel, but for long it was mostly 52100 or other simple steel, CPM M4 came to that circle second year as I understand. However CPM M4 Rex was on the market for quite long time. I bought it from MacMaster 2004.

And 2004 CPM M4 was not dominating National competition. So was it worse 2004 then 2008 and 2009? Somehow knifemakers start using it only lately not 2004 or earlier.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
The premise that CPM M4 steel dominates does'nt seem to stack up when looking at the makers sites who compete in this sport....the top few I looked at use different steels if you go by what they advertise on competition knives....and if you look at the properties of CPM M4 there are other steels which are not readily available in the US which might be interesting as competitive alternatives that have not been used in these competitions. In particular I am thinking of Japan and Cowry X used by Hattori, R2 used by Itou and OU31 used by Matsuda all of which are able to be hardened in the 63-65 Rc level and able to perform well there. They seem to be the propriatory steels of the aforementioned makers and used solely by them....and all of these "masters" have skills on hamaguru grinds and damascus blends which are their preferred use of these steels and forge heat treating to make blades which would very likely be extremely competitive with the CPM M4 blades and other 52100 blades used by present competitors. The "heat treatment" aspect being for me the most critical and whilst not supporting the previous comments by another poster....there is a valid point about availability of steels impacting upon what is able to be used.

If I were a none maker competitor I would think a knife made by Kiku Matsuda in OU31 should be very interesting. He is widely recognised as the most skillful grinder in the world and responsible for the work on many of American makers premium knives done under contract.

Incidentally....does anyone know the steel used by Ted Ott in his world breaking record knife? I am guessing it might be CPM M4 but his website is not clear on this?
 
PeterPHWS said:
In particular I am thinking of Japan and Cowry X used by Hattori, R2 used by Itou and OU31 used by Matsuda all of which are able to be hardened in the 63-65 Rc level and able to perform well there. They seem to be the propriatory steels of the aforementioned makers and used solely by them....and all of these "masters" have skills on hamaguru grinds and damascus blends which are their preferred use of these steels and forge heat treating to make blades which would very likely be extremely competitive with the CPM M4 blades and other 52100 blades used by present competitors.
Click to expand...

Cowry X and Cowry Y are easily available through Jantz and are definitely not proprietary.
 
I chipped the edge of my ZDP Endura removing a thumb tack from dry wall. So yeah....it's not that tough....pretty brittle actually.
 
Blade Magazine lists dates & locations of cutting contests.bladesports international will conduct 3rd blade west cutting comp.sept.12 at 5 p. m. in Clackamas ore.this is only one of several held each year by different associations.
 
DennisStrickland said:
Blade Magazine lists dates & locations of cutting contests.bladesports international will conduct 3rd blade west cutting comp.sept.12 at 5 p. m. in Clackamas ore.this is only one of several held each year by different associations.
Click to expand...

Vassili, if you believe so much in ZDP-189, why don't you take yours to this competition? Then we'll all see how the steel would fare and this matter would be put to rest.
 
cotdt said:
Vassili, if you believe so much in ZDP-189, why don't you take yours to this competition? Then we'll all see how the steel would fare and this matter would be put to rest.
Click to expand...

I start feeling like I am in kindergarden or something...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Spyderco made the Mule in 52100, M4, S90V, and ZDP-189. A head to head test would be pretty simple since the design is identical, and the same company set the quality control requirements. The only one I don't have is the zdp.
 
nozh2002 said:
I start feeling like I am in kindergarden or something...

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...

sidestep.jpg
 
nozh2002 said:
I start feeling like I am in kindergarden or something...

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...

You guys had cutting competitions in kindergarden? Wow, I wish I grew up in Russia too. In America they took all my knives away =(

hardheart said:
Spyderco made the Mule in 52100, M4, S90V, and ZDP-189. A head to head test would be pretty simple since the design is identical, and the same company set the quality control requirements. The only one I don't have is the zdp.
Click to expand...

I have all of them. Depending on the kind of test, these steels would rank differently. Slicing would be different from push-cutting, which would be different from chopping. It would be really hard to do tests on them.
 
Why would it be hard to do tests, that is the whole point of the mule project, for end line users to compare and contrast steels using the same blade design.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top