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Why does CPM-M4 dominate in national cutting competitions?
- Thread starter cotdt
- Start date
Would anyone have an advantage in competition within approved specifications because of the type of steel used?
I assume all the competition knives meet a certain approved specification and all competitors are on an even playing field to show more of the cutters abilities and not so much the knife steels toughness.
Is a production knife like the Browning Crowell Barker Competition knife actually used in competition?
I assume all the competition knives meet a certain approved specification and all competitors are on an even playing field to show more of the cutters abilities and not so much the knife steels toughness.
Is a production knife like the Browning Crowell Barker Competition knife actually used in competition?
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I don't have specs on every knife used in the competitions I have covered but I'm sure the majority of them them over the last couple of years have been CPM-M4 and many were made by Warren Osborne.
In the 2008 World Championship 6 of the 7 competitiors used M4. Jim Crowell was the exception with a 1086 blade.
All of the knives have to be tested and certified prior to a competiton. The primary concern is safety and they don't want a knife that is likely to break to be used where a piece could fly off and hit a spectator.
Since this is a test of both the knife and the cutter, two top cutters using the same knife would probably have varied results. Nobody is going to have the perfect stroke every time. Every inch of wood or rope is not going to have exactly the same consistancy. At the last championship Gary Bond was breezing through the course and then got hung up on slicing a plastic drinking straw in half. Since it is a timed event, those extra seconds probably cost him the championship. Was it the fault of the knife or the cutter?
The steel is going to be a critical element in that if it chips or breaks it is disqualified. If it dulls after the first few cuts it is not going to perform well enough to complete all of the tasks. Starting off by chopping a 2x4 is a pretty good test of how well the knife will hold it's edge.
In the 2008 World Championship 6 of the 7 competitiors used M4. Jim Crowell was the exception with a 1086 blade.
All of the knives have to be tested and certified prior to a competiton. The primary concern is safety and they don't want a knife that is likely to break to be used where a piece could fly off and hit a spectator.
Since this is a test of both the knife and the cutter, two top cutters using the same knife would probably have varied results. Nobody is going to have the perfect stroke every time. Every inch of wood or rope is not going to have exactly the same consistancy. At the last championship Gary Bond was breezing through the course and then got hung up on slicing a plastic drinking straw in half. Since it is a timed event, those extra seconds probably cost him the championship. Was it the fault of the knife or the cutter?
The steel is going to be a critical element in that if it chips or breaks it is disqualified. If it dulls after the first few cuts it is not going to perform well enough to complete all of the tasks. Starting off by chopping a 2x4 is a pretty good test of how well the knife will hold it's edge.
Its an interesting sport to me. I'd like to read more information about how they research equipment, prepare and train for competition.
Thank You Mike
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May sound like a stupid question, but I take it the competitor can NOT sharpen, steel, strop, or otherwise do anything to the blade edge between rounds, then?
Someone asked about if 3V or D2 was tried. I believe Mr. D stated that they have been, to his knowledge. He also stated that stainless steels just can not hold up, so they're not used.
While it hasn't been stated, I think it's been implied that ZDP-189 has not been used. However, there's a big difference between someone not chipping their edge on their folder doing work in the garden vs on a 10" blade (15" & 1+ lbs) chopping 2X4's, hardwood dowels, etc.
The above statement is NOT made to get a response explaining exactly what they do & showing "documentation" vs no one showing any for their chopping.
The more I've read on this thread (& other writings), I'm guessing that ZDP-189 probably has not been tested, unless Spyderco somehow provided some, but Mr. D (Who's sponsored by them) didn't say so, so it would be reasonable to think it hasn't been tested.
Of course, why ZDP hasn't been tried has nothing to do with the OP's question. On the Busse INFI thing, that really shouldn't be the pissing contest it's becoming.
Busse combat has shown what its INFI steel can do in front of a live audience & filmed it (I believe so, anyways). They've challenged other makers to equal or surpass their knife. No one's stepped forward. OK, fine.
There are cutting championships that Busse "could" enter, but there's probably many reasons why he hasn't. 1st off, he's done his own thing with his knives & put up a challenge that no one's answered. He'd have to make a knife that fits in the specifications & rules & would probably have to work with a competitor to do so. It takes $, sure, but mostly time that Mr. Busse probably doesn't really have.
Busse has done a set of cutting performances that they're happy with & probably don't want to spend the $, time, & materials to compete. Other makers spend enough of their $, time, & materials to the competitions, they probably have no interest to design & make a knife that they feel would excel at the Busse cutting challenge. Of course, I guess someone could just use a production, semi-prod., or even custom & try it themselves or ask a maker or knife company, but again, they're currently spending what I'm sure are limited resources on the competitions & probably have no interest.
I think it'd take someone to actually obtain a Busse that would/could be certified & compete (If one exists) or someone to obtain another makers knife & attempt the Busse challenge on their own.
Anyways, aside from the occasional sidetrack, this has been an interesting & educational thread.
Someone asked about if 3V or D2 was tried. I believe Mr. D stated that they have been, to his knowledge. He also stated that stainless steels just can not hold up, so they're not used.
While it hasn't been stated, I think it's been implied that ZDP-189 has not been used. However, there's a big difference between someone not chipping their edge on their folder doing work in the garden vs on a 10" blade (15" & 1+ lbs) chopping 2X4's, hardwood dowels, etc.
The above statement is NOT made to get a response explaining exactly what they do & showing "documentation" vs no one showing any for their chopping.
The more I've read on this thread (& other writings), I'm guessing that ZDP-189 probably has not been tested, unless Spyderco somehow provided some, but Mr. D (Who's sponsored by them) didn't say so, so it would be reasonable to think it hasn't been tested.
Of course, why ZDP hasn't been tried has nothing to do with the OP's question. On the Busse INFI thing, that really shouldn't be the pissing contest it's becoming.
Busse combat has shown what its INFI steel can do in front of a live audience & filmed it (I believe so, anyways). They've challenged other makers to equal or surpass their knife. No one's stepped forward. OK, fine.
There are cutting championships that Busse "could" enter, but there's probably many reasons why he hasn't. 1st off, he's done his own thing with his knives & put up a challenge that no one's answered. He'd have to make a knife that fits in the specifications & rules & would probably have to work with a competitor to do so. It takes $, sure, but mostly time that Mr. Busse probably doesn't really have.
Busse has done a set of cutting performances that they're happy with & probably don't want to spend the $, time, & materials to compete. Other makers spend enough of their $, time, & materials to the competitions, they probably have no interest to design & make a knife that they feel would excel at the Busse cutting challenge. Of course, I guess someone could just use a production, semi-prod., or even custom & try it themselves or ask a maker or knife company, but again, they're currently spending what I'm sure are limited resources on the competitions & probably have no interest.
I think it'd take someone to actually obtain a Busse that would/could be certified & compete (If one exists) or someone to obtain another makers knife & attempt the Busse challenge on their own.
Anyways, aside from the occasional sidetrack, this has been an interesting & educational thread.
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- Jan 15, 2006
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From the BladeSports.org website:
"A cutter may sharpen his/her knife between separate events but not during an event between cuts. Example: A knife may be sharpened between a qualifying event and the main competition event. A knife may not be sharpened between the 2x4 Cut and the Rope Cut (or any subsequent cuts) during a multi-cut event."
I am glad this thread has generated some interest and exposed some new people to the sport. It really is very interesting and educational for those interested in knife performance.
I think a head-to-head competion between certain knives would be pointless. There are always going to variables and the loser could always claim some excuse. However, I think it would show whether or a not a certain knife or steel could at least withstand the test without damage regardless if it wins the competition or not.
If knife A and knife B both survive undamaged, the winner will most likely be determined by the person doing the cutting. However is knife A is undamaged but knife B breaks, then the knife determined the outcome. Even then, there would be questions about how it was made, heat treatment, etc.
"A cutter may sharpen his/her knife between separate events but not during an event between cuts. Example: A knife may be sharpened between a qualifying event and the main competition event. A knife may not be sharpened between the 2x4 Cut and the Rope Cut (or any subsequent cuts) during a multi-cut event."
I am glad this thread has generated some interest and exposed some new people to the sport. It really is very interesting and educational for those interested in knife performance.
I think a head-to-head competion between certain knives would be pointless. There are always going to variables and the loser could always claim some excuse. However, I think it would show whether or a not a certain knife or steel could at least withstand the test without damage regardless if it wins the competition or not.
If knife A and knife B both survive undamaged, the winner will most likely be determined by the person doing the cutting. However is knife A is undamaged but knife B breaks, then the knife determined the outcome. Even then, there would be questions about how it was made, heat treatment, etc.
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Another excuse for you to troll?
Part you don't get it is that there has to be a reason, motivation and time available to enter.
Back in 1999 Jerry did to the live demos and tests. Since then quiet a few people have bought Busses, tested them in very different manners and INFI and Jerry have very well established reputation.
So, why exactly would you enter competition if you were at his place?
To post later on BF that you were superior?
Which is on voluntarily bases no?
If you are so eager to find out why don't you get the piece of INFI and test yourself, and perhaps get comparable M4 blade and test it was well. I am sure you will get a lot of positive replies for the work you've done.
Other than that, INFI performance is pretty well known and established, so, if you don't believe any of those sources, we cant' go back to 1999 and invite you to Atlanta or Nashville to see live demos, and given your pretentious postings, we'd have to buy you a ticket and pay for your hotel too...
Thank You for some great insight and information.
Wow I watched the BladeSport video, Donavon can chop!
They may petition to handicap you with a double sized board ; )
So let's say that I have a knife made to specs out of M4, and Donavon gets one out of 1084, roughly the same size and geometry. Let's say both knives are capable of withstanding the event.
Who's going to win? Donavon, of course. But more importantly, why?
Everyone is forgetting the skill of the competitor. It won't mean jack if a blade is made from INFI, 3V, M4, or Roste Frei (mon
). All the blade has to be is good enough to make it through the competition. That's a high standard, I understand, but I'll bet there are several steels capable of making it. The rest is up to the person. That's where the bragging rights lie, not the steel.
Who's going to win? Donavon, of course. But more importantly, why?
Everyone is forgetting the skill of the competitor. It won't mean jack if a blade is made from INFI, 3V, M4, or Roste Frei (mon
). All the blade has to be is good enough to make it through the competition. That's a high standard, I understand, but I'll bet there are several steels capable of making it. The rest is up to the person. That's where the bragging rights lie, not the steel.
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It seems to me that the importance of the steel really comes into play the most in determining how thin you can go with the geometry. If say Rosta Frei 
D) can be hollow ground to the thickness of a straight razor and still survive all the impact punishment, well then wouldn't that be a better performing competition blade? Though on the other hand perhaps it wouldn't be heavy enough to do some of the tasks well.
D) can be hollow ground to the thickness of a straight razor and still survive all the impact punishment, well then wouldn't that be a better performing competition blade? Though on the other hand perhaps it wouldn't be heavy enough to do some of the tasks well.I started typing this post this morning and had to stop, so it is a little behind I will try to catch up soon. Thanks for the interest guys.
Thanks man.
No problem. I have also learned alot in the time I have been competing, could'nt ask for a better group of guys. Yeah I was a little hesitant to get involved at first. But people kept asking questions about competitions, so I had to try to help.
Thanks for the comments. I would like to answer a couple of questions here, but if it starts being more about competition than the subject of the thread we will move.
Yes, the knife I am using now is the first one I have made that I have not wanted to change anything. I have been using it for a year now, but I don't practice with it. The time length that a cutter uses his knife is really a matter of how comfortable you are. I am getting close to building a new knife. I am starting to worry if I have pushed it too far, when these thoughts start entering your mind during a competition you hold back. And hold back is not what I want to do.
Thanks for the comment. As far as damage, if it is only noticeable after close inspection, like having to feel for it or look close, you get a point penalty. If the damage is severe enough that the knife cannot be used in competition again, and/or a threat to the cutter or the audience then the cutter is disqualified. That is the short answer. Damage is looked at on a case by case basis, by the officials.
I know alot of people use a knife hard. But I feel like I will put a cutter through a lot in a year or two. After I retire my knife from competition, it will most likely become my practice knife. So the retired knife will not just stop being used, it will get used more as a practice knife than a competition knife. I guess what I am saying is if the edge on my comp knife will compete for a year or two with me using and no sign of wear or fatigue. Then a knife made the same way should last a normal person a lifetime. I know there are exceptions, there always are. And if you want it with a thicker edge I understand. And if I made one for someone that was not going to compete I would not take the edge as thin as I do for my comps, mainly for piece of mind. Also, to add some to lateral strength.
The problem with this scenario is our knives are pretty personalized. The weight and balance of my knife is what I prefer. Just like a baseball player prefers a certain weight and balance for his bat. Now can I use a knife that does not fit my criteria? yes, but I would not be as comfortable. Most steels will be perform fine in competition. One of the factors for me to use M4 that I have not brought up before is the amount of sharpening between competitions. If you have to take your knife back to grinder and start a fresh edge from scratch after every competition then you will not have a thin edge very long. This is what I used to have to do to
5160. I have been experimenting with sharpening less and less on M4 with every cut I do. The last cut I was in all I did was strop on leather loaded with 8K grit diamond paste. I was not going to do anything to it, but Warren had that strop loaded and I had to try it to see if it was something that I wanted to incorporate in my shop. The next comp I will not do anything to it. The edge thickness remains the same for a longer period of time and you get your money's worth out of the M4.
One more thing, if this is too far off topic let me know and we can start a new thread somewhere else.
Thanks man.
No problem. I have also learned alot in the time I have been competing, could'nt ask for a better group of guys. Yeah I was a little hesitant to get involved at first. But people kept asking questions about competitions, so I had to try to help.
Thanks for the comments. I would like to answer a couple of questions here, but if it starts being more about competition than the subject of the thread we will move.
Yes, the knife I am using now is the first one I have made that I have not wanted to change anything. I have been using it for a year now, but I don't practice with it. The time length that a cutter uses his knife is really a matter of how comfortable you are. I am getting close to building a new knife. I am starting to worry if I have pushed it too far, when these thoughts start entering your mind during a competition you hold back. And hold back is not what I want to do.
Donavon that was some awesome cutting
I have a question. It's been mentioned that if a blade edge suffers too much degradation after the cutting tasks it will be disqualified. Can you give us an idea of how much is too much.
Thanks for your informative post :thumbup:
Thanks for the comment. As far as damage, if it is only noticeable after close inspection, like having to feel for it or look close, you get a point penalty. If the damage is severe enough that the knife cannot be used in competition again, and/or a threat to the cutter or the audience then the cutter is disqualified. That is the short answer. Damage is looked at on a case by case basis, by the officials.
I know alot of people use a knife hard. But I feel like I will put a cutter through a lot in a year or two. After I retire my knife from competition, it will most likely become my practice knife. So the retired knife will not just stop being used, it will get used more as a practice knife than a competition knife. I guess what I am saying is if the edge on my comp knife will compete for a year or two with me using and no sign of wear or fatigue. Then a knife made the same way should last a normal person a lifetime. I know there are exceptions, there always are. And if you want it with a thicker edge I understand. And if I made one for someone that was not going to compete I would not take the edge as thin as I do for my comps, mainly for piece of mind. Also, to add some to lateral strength.
WOW,This was an interesting & very long thread,but also very informative.
I'd like to see how two able cutting competitors,using the EXACT same (size,weight,& grind) knives,one with 3V & one with M4,fair against eachother.
The problem with this scenario is our knives are pretty personalized. The weight and balance of my knife is what I prefer. Just like a baseball player prefers a certain weight and balance for his bat. Now can I use a knife that does not fit my criteria? yes, but I would not be as comfortable. Most steels will be perform fine in competition. One of the factors for me to use M4 that I have not brought up before is the amount of sharpening between competitions. If you have to take your knife back to grinder and start a fresh edge from scratch after every competition then you will not have a thin edge very long. This is what I used to have to do to
5160. I have been experimenting with sharpening less and less on M4 with every cut I do. The last cut I was in all I did was strop on leather loaded with 8K grit diamond paste. I was not going to do anything to it, but Warren had that strop loaded and I had to try it to see if it was something that I wanted to incorporate in my shop. The next comp I will not do anything to it. The edge thickness remains the same for a longer period of time and you get your money's worth out of the M4.
Not at the present time. The knife is an excellent camp knife, but for most of us it is not heavy enough, and the balance is too close to the handle. Just my opinion of course. Someone else might pick it up and think it is "the one". Depends on the cutters preferences.
One more thing, if this is too far off topic let me know and we can start a new thread somewhere else.
JTR357
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+1:thumbup:
It's only 20% steel & 80% technique in cutting competitions,from what I've gathered.
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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You can use that analogy when cutting almost anything.
JTR357
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What about cutting cheese? Looks like the cheese would stick to the sides of the competition blade. Then again, a cheese cutter depends more on the edge grind and blade geometry than steel choice.
JTR357
Gold Member
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+1k:thumbup:
dphillips,That is some amazing skill right there.
looks like you coulda done it in 5 chops!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDoGtY4pyYw Donavon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDiQaG_usi0 Scott
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oI-z8i41Do Ted 2x4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUncTSAEW3w Gayle bottle and rope
This video was done for a website called Bell Bucks and Beards ( http://www.BellBucksnBeards.com ) based out of Indiana. The website is centered around a couple of guys that are serious about keeping there kids outside, in the woods or on the water. I think it is a great site and was happy to do the interview. Thought I would share. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzAo2yZitoU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyKr2elK3eQ blade show 09 (all competitors)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aW1lAmznZ8 Ted all 3 records
M4 knife unsharpened (a little background here. This was my first M4 competition knife and first tapered tang. I was asked to test this knife thoroughly before using it in a competition. So this video was shot as proof that I had tested it well. The knife is not just dull, it is unsharpened which means it has never had the primary bevel put on it, also the handles are not glued on which I payed for later. {bad blisters} The knife was tested with a .016 edge. Enjoy)
http://s637.photobucket.com/albums/...s/?action=view¤t=M4knifeunsharpened.flv
Ozark cut May 08
http://s637.photobucket.com/albums/uu91/bigdknives/videos/?action=view¤t=MyCutOzark08.flv
North Texas cut April 08
http://s637.photobucket.com/albums/uu91/bigdknives/videos/?action=view¤t=MycutNorthTex08.flv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDiQaG_usi0 Scott
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oI-z8i41Do Ted 2x4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUncTSAEW3w Gayle bottle and rope
This video was done for a website called Bell Bucks and Beards ( http://www.BellBucksnBeards.com ) based out of Indiana. The website is centered around a couple of guys that are serious about keeping there kids outside, in the woods or on the water. I think it is a great site and was happy to do the interview. Thought I would share. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzAo2yZitoU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyKr2elK3eQ blade show 09 (all competitors)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aW1lAmznZ8 Ted all 3 records
M4 knife unsharpened (a little background here. This was my first M4 competition knife and first tapered tang. I was asked to test this knife thoroughly before using it in a competition. So this video was shot as proof that I had tested it well. The knife is not just dull, it is unsharpened which means it has never had the primary bevel put on it, also the handles are not glued on which I payed for later. {bad blisters} The knife was tested with a .016 edge. Enjoy)
http://s637.photobucket.com/albums/...s/?action=view¤t=M4knifeunsharpened.flv
Ozark cut May 08
http://s637.photobucket.com/albums/uu91/bigdknives/videos/?action=view¤t=MyCutOzark08.flv
North Texas cut April 08
http://s637.photobucket.com/albums/uu91/bigdknives/videos/?action=view¤t=MycutNorthTex08.flv