Why does CPM-M4 dominate in national cutting competitions?

I really like CPM M4. I sharpened a Spyderco Mule Team about 2 months ago and I must say it took one of the best edges I have ever put on a blade. It was very impressive. I would like to see more knife makers use M4 I believe it is a great steel and I do think we will see more of it. I also have become a huge fan of CPM 3V. It takes a great edge and holds is very well. 3V is also very tough.

I am really enjoying reading this thread for the most part there has been a lot of good discussion and information.
 
Mike Carter Custom Knives said:
In my opinion, the cutting contests represent more of a real world test of the knives than cutting a thousand pieces of string. The knives have to tough enough to stand up to heavy chopping, stay sharp enough to slice paper or a plastic drinking straw, and agile enough for water bottle or rope cuts.
Click to expand...

I brought this subject up a couple years ago.
I specifically asked why INFI wasn’t used, and winning, in this competition.

The usual suspects came unglued. I heard every excuse in the book.

There has always been an open invitation by Busse Knives, to competing brands, to compare their knives, and steel, to Busse’s . This was on Busse’s terms. They claimed that nobody was even willing to try to compare with them.

Well, here you go. Bladesports offers a competition that anyone can compete in.
Sounds like it’s time for Busse to put their money where their mouth is.

What’s that sound I hear? Crickets?
 
Larrin, I'd like to ask your opinion on some things if you don't mind taking the time to answer them.

It's pretty much understood that in your niche you do some amazing things with steel and knives.

How would the smaller grained, higher RC steels that you work with hold up to this kind of tasks? You are known for pretty amazing chefs type knifes and have been known to use steels like AEBL and similar steels run at fairly high RC;s.

Please correct me if I'm wrong of course.

Your work with damascus is well known too, as is your fathers.

I take it most damascus steels wouldn't be designed for such competitions either.

Yet the small carbide steels at fairly high RC's is known for the edge keeping it can do ( not talking about pure wear resistance like you'd get from from huge, antisocial, and hard "devil worshipping" vanadium carbides)

Also, ColtDT, I wouldn't consider 3V to be semi stainless in the manner of D2 , for instance. 3V is a vanadium steel version of the old vascowear which IMO, has better shock resistance, not as good wear resistance, and about the same corrosion resistance. It does sharpen better and easier, IMO, and I've heard it grinds better, as old style vascowear was known for it's gummyness, and work hardening.

It pits pretty bad when corrosion sets in ( vascowear). 3V isn't much better, though a lot of it depends on how it's finished. Near mirror will seem like it's stainless compared to rough finished.

It's not as bad as 52100 though , IMO, or even O-1, or L6 ( worst pitting I've experienced).

Thanks for your time, Joe
 
bearcut said:
I brought this subject up a couple years ago.
I specifically asked why INFI wasn’t used, and winning, in this competition.

The usual suspects came unglued. I heard every excuse in the book.

There has always been an open invitation by Busse Knives, to competing brands, to compare their knives, and steel, to Busse’s . This was on Busse’s terms. They claimed that nobody was even willing to try to compare with them.

Well, here you go. Bladesports offers a competition that anyone can compete in.
Sounds like it’s time for Busse to put their money where their mouth is.

What’s that sound I hear? Crickets?
Click to expand...

Bearcut,

You already know why INFI isn't winning the competitions. INFI isnt just available at your local steel source. And even if it was you still need the Busse heat treat. Most of the people that enter these contests and win are custom knifemakers. They make their knives out of the steel they think is best and that is readily available.

You should email Jerry and tell him to make a knife to the specs required for me and I will enter the contest. A custom from Busse would cost upwards of $1500 if the $100 an inch is correct. Thats a little much for me. Since none of the current design offerings are to the specs of Bladesports its kinda hard to enter a knife that doesnt exist. I have no doubt after spending so much time with INFI (w/ proper edges) that it would be at the top of the pack with the right person behind the blade. Maybe Jerry will see this and chime in. I know Jerry is not afraid to put INFI up to a challenge. Im sure if Jerry offered a knife to the specs of the competition you would see one entered. I also think that any of the top steels can win this competition with the right person behind the blade. Im sorry you have had a bad experience with INFI but anytime you are down this way you are welcome to come to one of our get togethers and give it a second try.
 
The Mastiff said:
Larrin, I'd like to ask your opinion on some things if you don't mind taking the time to answer them.

It's pretty much understood that in your niche you do some amazing things with steel and knives.

How would the smaller grained, higher RC steels that you work with hold up to this kind of tasks? You are known for pretty amazing chefs type knifes and have been known to use steels like AEBL and similar steels run at fairly high RC;s.

Please correct me if I'm wrong of course.

Your work with damascus is well known too, as is your fathers.

I take it most damascus steels wouldn't be designed for such competitions either.

Yet the small carbide steels at fairly high RC's is known for the edge keeping it can do ( not talking about pure wear resistance like you'd get from from huge, antisocial, and hard "devil worshipping" vanadium carbides)

Also, ColtDT, I wouldn't consider 3V to be semi stainless in the manner of D2 , for instance. 3V is a vanadium steel version of the old vascowear which IMO, has better shock resistance, not as good wear resistance, and about the same corrosion resistance. It does sharpen better and easier, IMO, and I've heard it grinds better, as old style vascowear was known for it's gummyness, and work hardening.

It pits pretty bad when corrosion sets in ( vascowear). 3V isn't much better, though a lot of it depends on how it's finished. Near mirror will seem like it's stainless compared to rough finished.

It's not as bad as 52100 though , IMO, or even O-1, or L6 ( worst pitting I've experienced).

Thanks for your time, Joe
Click to expand...
Joe, I wish I could say I am incredibly experienced in knife making. I have made some knives, but school has really put a damper on my knifemaking. My father, however, is an excellent knifemaker. I love knives and I love learning about metallurgy, but I can't say that I'm an excellent knifemaker. I have made a couple knives that I was happy with enough to sell, and I hope those that own them enjoy them.

I probably wouldn't heat treat AEB-L to 63 Rc or higher for a competition cutter, though I've never made one so I can't be for sure. Some knifemakers claim that the lower carbide volume steels tend to roll in competition cutters. I tend to think this is due to improper heat treating for the task, I don't see why heat treating it a little harder wouldn't fix the problem, though again, I've never made a competition cutter. I think AEB-L or 12C27 could make a very good competition cutter if given the proper heat treatment. Neither steel comes in a thick enough size to compete, as most of those knives are made with at least 1/4" thick steel for weight purposes. This isn't a deal breaker, but it would need to be laminated with something else to be thick enough to compete. I think as far as a stainless chopper, you could find no better steel. High Rc steels with small carbides are great for cutting instruments, but possibly not chopping knives, I just don't know if the toughness would be great enough at a high Rc. This also depends on your definition of "high Rc", it is possible that 61-62 Rc would give enough toughness to prevent chipping.

As far as I know my father has never made a damascus combination made specifically for competition cutters. All of his double high carbon steels would be suited such as O1/15N20. He has also made a limited amount of 3V/154CM which has been used by a couple large tactical knifemakers who reported good performance. The problem with higher alloyed stuff is you're limited to steels with high molybdenum content for contrast after etching. I suppose 3V/CPM-M4 could be a possible combination. As far as stainless goes, it would probably have to be AEB-L/CPM-154 or possibly getting as much contrast as you can out of something like 19C27/AEB-L or 19C27/420HC or something similar.
 
Ok guys I will jump in with Mike Carter here and try to help explain why we use CPM-M4 for our competition blades. I guess an introduction would be appropriate. My name is Donavon and I compete in the BladeSports competitions. I am also sponsored by Spyderco. I can't remember all of the questions that have been asked in this thread, but I will answer what I can to the best of my ability.

I use CPM-M4 for my comp blades and most of my personal blades for that matter. CPM-M4 is a good mix of wear resistance and toughness. As Mike Carter said most of our competition blades are 61 Rc. At this hardness we can grind our blades thin and still have them hold up to the 2x4 and 3/4" hardwood dowel. We want them as thin as we can for the "finesse" cuts (straws, ropes, paper towel rolls, etc...) The compromise is to make a knife tough enough to chop through a 2X4 and hardwood dowel and still be thin enough and remain sharp enough to cut a plastic drinking straw and 2" rope. M4 allows us to do that.

As far as construction goes, I personally use 3/8” thick M4, most others are using 5/16” and some have started experimenting with ¼”. The deciding factor on the thickness of steel is the weight you want to end up with. The knife I currently use is 1lb 9 oz. There are a couple of 1lb 10oz, and one 1 lb 11oz I think, some of the lighter ones are 1lb 3oz. Anyway, the cleaver style is not that attractive I will be the first to admit, but for me the straight edge and weight forward out-weigh the looks. Some guys are still using traditional shaped blades. I plan on trying a traditional shape knife again in the future, but time constraints have me right now.
The construction of our knives is not that different from most, we just push our edges a little farther than some. Most, if not all are flat ground with convex edge. As far as the angle of the edge it is hard to measure that. I will say that while sharpening on the belt I sometimes accidentally hit the spine on the belt, that is about the only indication I can give of edge angle.

As far as sponsors, as I said I am sponsored by Spyderco. They are also a corporate sponsor of BladeSports and sponsor another cutter, Jose Diaz, in Washington. Spyderco is a great company that believes in testing knives and steel, this is something that they do everyday.

The following is part of our mission statement. The keywords here being tool and safety.

Our mission statement is BladeSports International, Inc., is a Texas non-profit corporation formed to promote knife safety, provide workshops and cutting events for its members, and to inform and educate the public with regard to the safe use of a knife as a tool.

I know I am skipping around but I am trying to answer questions as I remember them. I know that the price and availability of steel has been mentioned. As far as availability, any steel in 3/8” thickness is a challenge to find. So this in itself presents somewhat of a challenge. It is also hard to order small volumes of steel from some companies. So if I have to order let’s say 600 lbs of a steel in 3/8” just to test and I build a couple of knives and it does not work, well there is not a large market for 3/8” thick knives with 4” blades. Sorry if that sounded like a smart-alecky comment, but didn’t know how else to say it. As far as price, a piece of CPM-M4, 3/8” thick, 2.250” wide and 36” is right at $200. So a comp knife costs me $100 just for the steel. I know there are more expensive steels out there but that is high enough.

Ok, one more topic, steels that have been tested. I know of some but not all of course. S30V as Mike mentioned, 440C, D-2, 5160 (I use 5160 for practice knives and prototypes), 52100, and 3V are some that I remember. The stainless steels do not hold up well because of the chromium content. I am not a metallurgist, so I cannot explain the science as to why. I know that they will hold up for awhile then fail. One of the things that make comp knives fail is the fact that the edge flexes with each chop, I am mainly referring to the 2X4 and the hardwood dowel. So just like a piece of wire, if you bend it back and forth enough times it will break. CPM-M4 is very resistant to this, especially considering the hardness and the thinness of the edge. Other steels are also resistant to this but most are not at 61Rc. I would like to find another steel that is and is also cheaper, that would be nice.

I will be glad to field questions, I will answer them to the best of my ability. Thanks for taking the time to read my rambling and I hope it is helpful to someone.
 
I have very many knives in all sorts of steels and several in forged differentially heat treated steels that are awsome in cutting but are non stainless.

In making my own I pretty much use 12c27 as it is favoured in South Africa and the makers have loads of experience. I have it treated by a specialist and the cutting edge out cuts a mora in 12c27 by 50% on same profile. For my long blades the chopping is great for wet branches and clearing brush. Dry hard wood tends to roughen the edges.

I am now trying 19c27 as some makers have had great blades from those as they are getting 2RC over 12c27 for same toughness.

I am also trying D2. That is plain incredible, but too many people can't sharpen to save their lives so that is for my own use.

Deep cooling 12c27 and 19c27 makes a considerable difference. (Confirmed on the Sandvik charts) But also what people don't often appreciate is the rate of dropping it to the intended temperature also is important. Nitrogen dipping also has it's problems in all steels and the maker really needs to be confident of his work.

I am way, way, off the quality some of the blades I have seen in 19c27 where those who can do that paced chilling have tough blades that are hard and easy to sharpen. I maintain my respect for seasoned makers.

Would I use it in chopping competitions? Nope but it is great for field use and the majority of people who need lessons on sharpening.
 
bearcut said:
I brought this subject up a couple years ago.
I specifically asked why INFI wasn’t used, and winning, in this competition.

The usual suspects came unglued. I heard every excuse in the book.

There has always been an open invitation by Busse Knives, to competing brands, to compare their knives, and steel, to Busse’s . This was on Busse’s terms. They claimed that nobody was even willing to try to compare with them.

Well, here you go. Bladesports offers a competition that anyone can compete in.
Sounds like it’s time for Busse to put their money where their mouth is.

What’s that sound I hear? Crickets?
Click to expand...

Bearcut,

It's always good to hear from the resident Busse Troll.

As for the sound of crickets that you hear, that is most likely coming from an industry where NO maker or manufacturer has ever attempted to duplicate the battery of LIVE tests that have been performed and documented at many gun and knife shows as well as the 1999 BLADE Show in Atlanta in front of a LIVE audience by Busse Combat. Our tests clearly demonstrate the performance of the steel and are not dependent upon the skill of the competitor as are the BladeSport tests.

Yes, I will admit that standing in the Atlanta heat and cutting 2,771 pieces of 1" diameter hemp rope with the same 2 inches of blade edge until there was no more rope to cut and cutting over 3,100 pieces at a show in Nashville and then flexing the same knife to 35 degrees and back to true is a bit boring to watch. Bending the same knife to over 70 degrees without breaking doesn't really add a lot of excitement either. What it does do, however, is clearly demonstrate the performance of the steel. Not fun to watch but definitely a much better account of a steel's performance.

Howz about a new hobby for you my friend. Why don't you troll up all of these other makers and manufacturers and ask them why they won't even try to duplicate our tests in a LIVE demonstration? If you really like the sound of crickets chirping, you'll be in for the time of your life!

Let's Drink!!! :thumbup:

Jerry :D
 
dphillips said:
Ok guys I will jump in with Mike Carter here and try to help explain why we use CPM-M4 for our competition blades. I guess an introduction would be appropriate. My name is Donavon and I compete in the BladeSports competitions. I am also sponsored by Spyderco. I can't remember all of the questions that have been asked in this thread, but I will answer what I can to the best of my ability.

I use CPM-M4 for my comp blades and most of my personal blades for that matter. CPM-M4 is a good mix of wear resistance and toughness. As Mike Carter said most of our competition blades are 61 Rc. At this hardness we can grind our blades thin and still have them hold up to the 2x4 and 3/4" hardwood dowel. We want them as thin as we can for the "finesse" cuts (straws, ropes, paper towel rolls, etc...) The compromise is to make a knife tough enough to chop through a 2X4 and hardwood dowel and still be thin enough and remain sharp enough to cut a plastic drinking straw and 2" rope. M4 allows us to do that.

As far as construction goes, I personally use 3/8” thick M4, most others are using 5/16” and some have started experimenting with ¼”. The deciding factor on the thickness of steel is the weight you want to end up with. The knife I currently use is 1lb 9 oz. There are a couple of 1lb 10oz, and one 1 lb 11oz I think, some of the lighter ones are 1lb 3oz. Anyway, the cleaver style is not that attractive I will be the first to admit, but for me the straight edge and weight forward out-weigh the looks. Some guys are still using traditional shaped blades. I plan on trying a traditional shape knife again in the future, but time constraints have me right now.
The construction of our knives is not that different from most, we just push our edges a little farther than some. Most, if not all are flat ground with convex edge. As far as the angle of the edge it is hard to measure that. I will say that while sharpening on the belt I sometimes accidentally hit the spine on the belt, that is about the only indication I can give of edge angle.

As far as sponsors, as I said I am sponsored by Spyderco. They are also a corporate sponsor of BladeSports and sponsor another cutter, Jose Diaz, in Washington. Spyderco is a great company that believes in testing knives and steel, this is something that they do everyday.

The following is part of our mission statement. The keywords here being tool and safety.

Our mission statement is BladeSports International, Inc., is a Texas non-profit corporation formed to promote knife safety, provide workshops and cutting events for its members, and to inform and educate the public with regard to the safe use of a knife as a tool.

I know I am skipping around but I am trying to answer questions as I remember them. I know that the price and availability of steel has been mentioned. As far as availability, any steel in 3/8” thickness is a challenge to find. So this in itself presents somewhat of a challenge. It is also hard to order small volumes of steel from some companies. So if I have to order let’s say 600 lbs of a steel in 3/8” just to test and I build a couple of knives and it does not work, well there is not a large market for 3/8” thick knives with 4” blades. Sorry if that sounded like a smart-alecky comment, but didn’t know how else to say it. As far as price, a piece of CPM-M4, 3/8” thick, 2.250” wide and 36” is right at $200. So a comp knife costs me $100 just for the steel. I know there are more expensive steels out there but that is high enough.

Ok, one more topic, steels that have been tested. I know of some but not all of course. S30V as Mike mentioned, 440C, D-2, 5160 (I use 5160 for practice knives and prototypes), 52100, and 3V are some that I remember. The stainless steels do not hold up well because of the chromium content. I am not a metallurgist, so I cannot explain the science as to why. I know that they will hold up for awhile then fail. One of the things that make comp knives fail is the fact that the edge flexes with each chop, I am mainly referring to the 2X4 and the hardwood dowel. So just like a piece of wire, if you bend it back and forth enough times it will break. CPM-M4 is very resistant to this, especially considering the hardness and the thinness of the edge. Other steels are also resistant to this but most are not at 61Rc. I would like to find another steel that is and is also cheaper, that would be nice.

I will be glad to field questions, I will answer them to the best of my ability. Thanks for taking the time to read my rambling and I hope it is helpful to someone.
Click to expand...

You my friend, are a chopping beast!

Look at 2:20 to witness this man EAT a 2x4"!
[youtube]FyM7MQO2dAg[/youtube]
 
norcalblacktail said:
Bearcut,

You already know why INFI isn't winning the competitions. INFI isnt just available at your local steel source. And even if it was you still need the Busse heat treat. Most of the people that enter these contests and win are custom knifemakers. They make their knives out of the steel they think is best and that is readily available.

You should email Jerry and tell him to make a knife to the specs required for me and I will enter the contest. A custom from Busse would cost upwards of $1500 if the $100 an inch is correct. Thats a little much for me. Since none of the current design offerings are to the specs of Bladesports its kinda hard to enter a knife that doesnt exist. I have no doubt after spending so much time with INFI (w/ proper edges) that it would be at the top of the pack with the right person behind the blade. Maybe Jerry will see this and chime in. I know Jerry is not afraid to put INFI up to a challenge. Im sure if Jerry offered a knife to the specs of the competition you would see one entered. I also think that any of the top steels can win this competition with the right person behind the blade. Im sorry you have had a bad experience with INFI but anytime you are down this way you are welcome to come to one of our get togethers and give it a second try.
Click to expand...

Sounds like another excuse.

If I understand the current rules, then this tells me nothing about why INFI isn’t winning any competitions. Nor does it explain why INFI isn’t competing in said competitions. Jerry can enter the contest himself, just like all the rest do.

Jerry makes his own knives, with his own steel, with his own heat treat, in any design he chooses, just like the other knifemakers in this contest. What is stopping him? Isn’t he a knife maker just like all the rest? This is a competition between knife makers!
Jerry Busse is a knife maker! He can enter his own knives!

I would certainly think that a steel of such mythical qualities as INFI would at least ENTER A CONTEST and prove it’s worth. I would certainly think that a knife maker of such revere as Jerry Busse would enter one of these contests. At the very least, Jerry could put, as you said, “The right person behind the blade”

To quote the Busse website:

QUOTE:
“How does INFI compare to other steels?”
“Simple question, complex answer. INFI represents what I have always dreamed of in a knife steel. Tougher, by an enormous margin, than any other steel I've ever tested. Unparalleled edge holding under high impact and in cutting tests. Shock resistance that begs you to "bring it on". An ease of re-sharpening that you have to see to believe and higher levels of lateral strength at high hardness than have ever been achieved by any other steel. We have published our test results and our testing methodology. We have video taped all of these tests and play the video at the knife shows we attend. More importantly, we have duplicated these performance tests in "LIVE" demonstrations at many trade shows throughout the United States. We encourage all manufacturers to put their products through our tests and to publish their results. If you want to know how another maker's knife will compare to a Busse Combat knife, ask the other maker to duplicate our tests in a "live" demo.” END QUOTE

http://www.bussecombat.com/infi/index.shtml

OK, how about the entering the “LIVE’ Bladesports challenge?

It would be nice to see if INFI can come close to what M4 is doing now.
If Busse knives won’t even answer the call, then one must believe that they know they can’t compete.

Something tells me that the Emperor has no clothes….
 
Jerry Busse said:
Bearcut,

It's always good to hear from the resident Busse Troll.

As for the sound of crickets that you hear, that is most likely coming from an industry where NO maker or manufacturer has ever attempted to duplicate the battery of LIVE tests that have been performed and documented at many gun and knife shows as well as the 1999 BLADE Show in Atlanta in front of a LIVE audience by Busse Combat. Our tests clearly demonstrate the performance of the steel and are not dependent upon the skill of the competitor as are the BladeSport tests.

Yes, I will admit that standing in the Atlanta heat and cutting 2,771 pieces of 1" diameter hemp rope with the same 2 inches of blade edge until there was no more rope to cut and cutting over 3,100 pieces at a show in Nashville and then flexing the same knife to 35 degrees and back to true is a bit boring to watch. Bending the same knife to over 70 degrees without breaking doesn't really add a lot of excitement either. What it does do, however, is clearly demonstrate the performance of the steel. Not fun to watch but definitely a much better account of a steel's performance.

Howz about a new hobby for you my friend. Why don't you troll up all of these other makers and manufacturers and ask them why they won't even try to duplicate our tests in a LIVE demonstration? If you really like the sound of crickets chirping, you'll be in for the time of your life!

Let's Drink!!! :thumbup:

Jerry :D
Click to expand...

Excuses.

"How does INFI compare to other steels?
Unparalleled edge holding under high impact and in cutting tests. "

This is from your website Jerry.
Is it true or not?
The Bladesports contests would either prove or disprove this.

M4 shows unparalleled edge holding under high impact and in cutting tests.
 
Last edited:
bearcut said:
Jerry makes his own knives, with his own steel, with his own heat treat, in any design he chooses, just like the other knifemakers in this contest. What is stopping him? Isn’t he a knife maker just like all the rest? This is a competition between knife makers

Jerry Busse is a knife maker! He can enter his own knives
Click to expand...

It is a cutting competition between cutters, not makers, although many of the cutters are makers.

Jerry would have to make a knife for a cutter, or a cutter would have to request one....Jerry is a great many things, but I am pretty sure that he is currently not a competition certified cutter.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Donovan, thanks for popping in and explaining much more than I can as an observer. As I said earlier, going to the competitions and talking with you guys has been a real education for me. I really admire the research, training and all of the effort you guys put into the competitions. I think all knifemakers benefit from what you have learned and shared with us.

I knew mentioning Infi was going to open a can of worms but I would like to see how some of the super steels stack up. I understand that it would be an expensive test and I can agree from my own experience that even finding 3/8" or thicker steel is a challenge.

In any event, keep on putting on a great show and pushing the limits of what a knife can do.

Mike
 
dphillips said:
Ok guys I will jump in with Mike Carter here and try to help explain why we use CPM-M4 for our competition blades. I guess an introduction would be appropriate. My name is Donavon and I compete in the BladeSports competitions. I am also sponsored by Spyderco. I can't remember all of the questions that have been asked in this thread, but I will answer what I can to the best of my ability.

I use CPM-M4 for my comp blades and most of my personal blades for that matter. CPM-M4 is a good mix of wear resistance and toughness. As Mike Carter said most of our competition blades are 61 Rc. At this hardness we can grind our blades thin and still have them hold up to the 2x4 and 3/4" hardwood dowel. We want them as thin as we can for the "finesse" cuts (straws, ropes, paper towel rolls, etc...) The compromise is to make a knife tough enough to chop through a 2X4 and hardwood dowel and still be thin enough and remain sharp enough to cut a plastic drinking straw and 2" rope. M4 allows us to do that.

As far as construction goes, I personally use 3/8” thick M4, most others are using 5/16” and some have started experimenting with ¼”. The deciding factor on the thickness of steel is the weight you want to end up with. The knife I currently use is 1lb 9 oz. There are a couple of 1lb 10oz, and one 1 lb 11oz I think, some of the lighter ones are 1lb 3oz. Anyway, the cleaver style is not that attractive I will be the first to admit, but for me the straight edge and weight forward out-weigh the looks. Some guys are still using traditional shaped blades. I plan on trying a traditional shape knife again in the future, but time constraints have me right now.
The construction of our knives is not that different from most, we just push our edges a little farther than some. Most, if not all are flat ground with convex edge. As far as the angle of the edge it is hard to measure that. I will say that while sharpening on the belt I sometimes accidentally hit the spine on the belt, that is about the only indication I can give of edge angle.

As far as sponsors, as I said I am sponsored by Spyderco. They are also a corporate sponsor of BladeSports and sponsor another cutter, Jose Diaz, in Washington. Spyderco is a great company that believes in testing knives and steel, this is something that they do everyday.

The following is part of our mission statement. The keywords here being tool and safety.

Our mission statement is BladeSports International, Inc., is a Texas non-profit corporation formed to promote knife safety, provide workshops and cutting events for its members, and to inform and educate the public with regard to the safe use of a knife as a tool.

I know I am skipping around but I am trying to answer questions as I remember them. I know that the price and availability of steel has been mentioned. As far as availability, any steel in 3/8” thickness is a challenge to find. So this in itself presents somewhat of a challenge. It is also hard to order small volumes of steel from some companies. So if I have to order let’s say 600 lbs of a steel in 3/8” just to test and I build a couple of knives and it does not work, well there is not a large market for 3/8” thick knives with 4” blades. Sorry if that sounded like a smart-alecky comment, but didn’t know how else to say it. As far as price, a piece of CPM-M4, 3/8” thick, 2.250” wide and 36” is right at $200. So a comp knife costs me $100 just for the steel. I know there are more expensive steels out there but that is high enough.

Ok, one more topic, steels that have been tested. I know of some but not all of course. S30V as Mike mentioned, 440C, D-2, 5160 (I use 5160 for practice knives and prototypes), 52100, and 3V are some that I remember. The stainless steels do not hold up well because of the chromium content. I am not a metallurgist, so I cannot explain the science as to why. I know that they will hold up for awhile then fail. One of the things that make comp knives fail is the fact that the edge flexes with each chop, I am mainly referring to the 2X4 and the hardwood dowel. So just like a piece of wire, if you bend it back and forth enough times it will break. CPM-M4 is very resistant to this, especially considering the hardness and the thinness of the edge. Other steels are also resistant to this but most are not at 61Rc. I would like to find another steel that is and is also cheaper, that would be nice.

I will be glad to field questions, I will answer them to the best of my ability. Thanks for taking the time to read my rambling and I hope it is helpful to someone.
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Hi Donavon,

It is a great pleasure and honor to have you here. This competition is not really presented here on Blade Forums as it should, to me this very important event for Knife community. You came here to talk about CPM M4, but I think it will much more valuable if insider like you just describe us what it is, how it works, etc.

I thin this competition should have separate dedicated topic, better in Knife Reviews sub-forum.

May I ask you to open different topic there with introduction and questions will follow. I think with that you also do a good service for this competition to let us know more about it.

Please! I hope it will not only my request and other will like to see more about this competition as well.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
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