Why does CS go on with the crappy Secure-ex sheaths?

[Mitchell Knives]

They keep making these sheaths because they are cheap to produce.

I'm sure they are well aware of the complaints by this point.

 

[coloradowildman]

Cedric and Ada tested this, it as scientific as anything I've seen. It does dull the knife, but it takes a number of repetitions to dull appreciably. Most of us probably retouch the edge more often. For me, it's nothing to worry about. If you just can't get over it, take your dollars elsewhere. I doubt this is high on GSM's priority list.

Where Cedric went wrong is that he did not perform this test on a wide range of sheath materials for a comparison. Any sheath material that strops against a blade edge as it is removed from the sheath will slowly degrade the edge.

 

[dogstar]

Where Cedric went wrong is that he did not perform this test on a wide range of sheath materials for a comparison. Any sheath material that strops against a blade edge as it is removed from the sheath will slowly degrade the edge.

Also, other companies use fiber reinforced sheaths as well. If CS stopped using it, the sheaths would have to be more bulky to maintain stiffness. Then people would complain about that.

 

[coloradowildman]

Right, and if the Secure-X from Cold Steel are being made in such a way that they regularly contact the edge of many models during the draw or sheathing, maybe there's a problem with that. Like maybe the sheath designs could undergo just one more round of CQI so that they actually perform like any other sheath.

I don't know what you gain from pretending a manufacturer can't and shouldn't try to do any better, but it's pretty dumb and belligerent of you.

I never said that the sheath design can't be improved on. What I said and will say again is that if you do a comparative test of different sheath materials that touch the blade, you will find that they all have an effect on the edge. The hysteria is that Secure-X itself is like ceramic or something because of the glass-reinforced nylon construction. I believe it's a gross exaggeration. It's the same hysteria I see when I read comments all over BF and Youtube saying "Oh MY God!, they used 1095, the junkiest steel on the planet! What are we to do! It will wear out in less than a year because it's not M390!" I'm sorry, just because one or two guys on Youtube said something does not make it science. Especially when they don't use the scientific method to test things to get a comparison.

 

[Alberta Ed]

All my Cold Steel FBs live in leather sheathes I made.

 

[coloradowildman]

Where to start...
I am 60 years old. I have been buying,using,collecting knives since around age 6 or 7.
I do know how to sharpen a knife and I could care less about trends,super-steels or YouTube bs.
I've been buying Cold Steel knives since the early eighties and own or have owned literally hundreds of their models.

To say that it's all hysteria, whining etc. is a bold statement and doesn't reflect my experiences. You seem to be an authority on this matter and others so everyone else must be wrong. Speak for yourself.

I never claimed authority. I just shared my opinion based on my experience and what I've seen around the internet. I believe there has been too much hysteria over a lot of things in the knife community lately that have been driven by various factors. It has now effected the knife market to the point where a whole generation of great, US and Japanese made affordable knives have been discontinued or are now becoming too expensive for the average working person to afford. I'm sure this doesn't bother the well-off retirees here, but it matters to me and a hell of a lot of other people who can't afford to buy anything we want.

Getting back to your comment, when I worked at my father's knife store in the 1980s and also accompanied him to knife shows in and around Florida, it was a common problem for display knives that were mostly in leather sheaths or sometimes plastic, to lose sharpness within a certain amount of time due to being pulled out and re-sheathed by customers. It was my job to touch them up after this happened. Knives such as German Puma's, Randalls, Cold Steel, Black Jacks, Bucks, Gerbers, etc.

I also noticed that over time, if I don't use my Gransfors Scandi Axe for a while but take the leather sheath off and on when showing it to friends, it will experience some edge degradation.

The same leather that can strop your blade into a hair shaving edge can also remove your hair shaving edge if you touch the edge against the sheath while pulling it out over time.

My guess is that the better the edge holding of the steel, such as the 52100 in your Cold Steel Drop Forged blades, or one of the super-steels, will be less noticed, and so someone will think the sheath design or material is better on those knives.

What would settle this matter once and for all is if someone would actually do a proper test where multiple materials and multiple knife steels were compared. I certainly don't think that Secure-EX plastic is easier on an edge than other knife materials, but I do believe it would show that it is not some monstrosity as some are claiming.

Cheers

 

[nephron]

I never claimed authority. I just shared my opinion based on my experience and what I've seen around the internet. I believe there has been too much hysteria over a lot of things in the knife community lately that are been driven by various factors. It has now effected the knife market to the point where a whole generation of great, US and Japanese made affordable knives have been discontinued or are now becoming too expensive for the average working person to afford.



Cheers

I am no authority either, I have missed completely the "hysteria's" you are talking about. Not being sarcastic so could you school me on them. Especially the knife segments and what has doomed them, so interesting and I am so out of it.

 

[coloradowildman]

I am no authority either, I have missed completely the "hysteria's" you are talking about. Not being sarcastic so could you school me on them. Especially the knife segments and what has doomed them, so interesting and I am so out of it.

It wasn't long ago that you could buy Buck 119's, SOG Seal Pup Elites in AUS8, Ontario Bowies in 1095, or Gerber Gator fixed blades in 420HC for $40. This is just a partial list, but a bit of a direct example. And there were many other great American blades in 1095, AUS8, 420HC, etc that are now discontinued or have jumped up to or over the $100 mark (Beckers, ESEE, etc). Leatherman's are going sky high as well. Some of it is obviously competition from cheap Chinese clones, but the rest is because new knife buyers are reading the hysteria on Youtube and Internet forums that a $40 Buck 119 in 420HC or a $40 Ontario in 1095 are "junk" because of their steel. Or that $40 knives don't come with a handmade, custom leather sheath lined with kydex. So they call, email and leave comments on manufacturer's Facebook, Twitter and Youtube pages complaining about this. Next thing you know, the new version has S35VN with a nice leather sheath but costs 3-4 times the price as the original. I can't recall how many times I've seen Youtubers say that 1095, AUS8 and Buck's 420HC are "total junk." This has spread to the point where manufacturer's have thrown in the towel. So they start selling Chinese junk and expensive boutique knives in place of affordable, high quality knives using 1095, AUS8, 420HC, etc. Cold Steel is one of the last hold outs thankfully. They still make a bunch of affordable AUS8 blades but I don't expect them to last beyond another year or two under GSM.

 

[NG VI]

I can't recall how many times I've seen Youtubers say that 1095

Have you really ever seen a reviewer say 1095 is crap, because if so it would be interesting to know who it is that made such an impression. 1095 mostly gets used in knives that are made specifically for outdoors use, and reviewers mention that. It's a great old-style carbon steel for a knife that's going to see a lot of impact.

It's also not a great steel for a folding knife, in comparison to nearly any of the modern standards for a decent knife. It's fine, it's not trash, but it's far from ideal for a knife that lives in a pocket, and the benefits it provides to a larger knife or a chopper are muted by the smaller, harder blades needed in a folder. It does allow for thin geometry, but still it doesn't really belong on a mass market folder.

It's a steel for outdoors fixed blades and GECs, and for custom makers since customs are always subject to the whims of the customer and creator. If someone wants a 1095 lime cutter or kiridashi, that's valid. Especially since it will greatly open up their options for makers, vs looking for a perfectly optimized steel.

All that said, I've never once seen a YouTube reviewer dog a knife just for being made of 1095. If it's an expensive production knife that struggles to justify its own price, then 1095 might be a disappointment vs M4 or 4V or Cru-Wear, but again when you're looking for a chopper you're going to put to work, if the price is fair then 1095 is an excellent choice.

AUS-8 isn't trash, but it is becoming obsolete in the market and it's inappropriate to use in a knife that's going to see price tags approaching $100. Again unless it's a particularly purposeful knife. AUS-8 in today's knife market is most appropriate for modestly priced kitchen knives and things like boot knives, smaller fighting knives. It's not trash, but it is objectively not as good as equivalent steels that fulfill the same roles that AUS-8 used to.

At a certain point, it's OK to acknowledge the march of time. And the steels you have named have lost the cachet that comes from a market absent of better choices. Today Buck does a great 420HC, turns it into something really useful in a midsized fixed blade. But it's foolish to say that 420 of any grade is a 'great' steel. Bos does a great heat treat. The steel is what it is. It's fine but struggles to justify itself when the price tag approaches $50.

 

[Tenbeers]

Have you really ever seen a reviewer say 1095 is crap, because if so it would be interesting to know who it is that made such an impression. 1095 mostly gets used in knives that are made specifically for outdoors use, and reviewers mention that. It's a great old-style carbon steel for a knife that's going to see a lot of impact.

It's also not a great steel for a folding knife, in comparison to nearly any of the modern standards for a decent knife. It's fine, it's not trash, but it's far from ideal for a knife that lives in a pocket, and the benefits it provides to a larger knife or a chopper are muted by the smaller, harder blades needed in a folder. It does allow for thin geometry, but still it doesn't really belong on a mass market folder.

It's a steel for outdoors fixed blades and GECs, and for custom makers since customs are always subject to the whims of the customer and creator. If someone wants a 1095 lime cutter or kiridashi, that's valid. Especially since it will greatly open up their options for makers, vs looking for a perfectly optimized steel.

All that said, I've never once seen a YouTube reviewer dog a knife just for being made of 1095. If it's an expensive production knife that struggles to justify its own price, then 1095 might be a disappointment vs M4 or 4V or Cru-Wear, but again when you're looking for a chopper you're going to put to work, if the price is fair then 1095 is an excellent choice.

AUS-8 isn't trash, but it is becoming obsolete in the market and it's inappropriate to use in a knife that's going to see price tags approaching $100. Again unless it's a particularly purposeful knife. AUS-8 in today's knife market is most appropriate for modestly priced kitchen knives and things like boot knives, smaller fighting knives. It's not trash, but it is objectively not as good as equivalent steels that fulfill the same roles that AUS-8 used to.

At a certain point, it's OK to acknowledge the march of time. And the steels you have named have lost the cachet that comes from a market absent of better choices. Today Buck does a great 420HC, turns it into something really useful in a midsized fixed blade. But it's foolish to say that 420 of any grade is a 'great' steel. Bos does a great heat treat. The steel is what it is. It's fine but struggles to justify itself when the price tag approaches $50.

Excellent points.
A lot of factory and mid-tech knives are overpriced in my opinion.
I pretty much stopped buying mid-tech knives in particular because of this.
I see $150-$200 knives that I doubt would greatly outperform Mora knives in comparative size ranges and Moras are featured in dozens of positive reviews on youtube.
I've seen a lot of positive reviews of knives done in 1095 and 420hc.
I haven't found reviews that feature a Gerber Prodigy or Strongarm
failing. Tons of Esee and Ontario positive reviews make it impossible for me to agree that there is a bias against 1095 or 5160.
There are many positive and negative Cold Steel product reviews including their budget models. I don't see many negative reviews of the DF line among the positive ones.
With few exceptions,I'm not seeing it.

Knife makers,factory and otherwise do cater to the boutique market in many cases but I don't think it's driven by complaints and whining.
If anything it's driven by profit margins.

The collector market has been catered to for a long time.
Case knives anyone?
Who buys all these new knives that are released every year when existing models would suffice? Collectors.
The knife industry wouldn't make it without collectors.
Not all knives and their buyers fall in to that category but the industry depends on it nonetheless.
There is no other way to account for the number of "new" models produced each year.
Stop sometime and look at the sheer number of choices now available.
Who is buying all these knives?
Most hunters that I know own and carry one,maybe two knives at most.
I know because I'm the one that sharpened many of them over the years.
Very few will spend more than $30 to $60 on a knife other than the one's I've been able to successfully "indoctrinate".

I truly believe that collectors drive most of the market and have for some time.

 

[Joshua J.]

Leather is best, but I have plenty of fixed blades held in a Securex sheath without issue, I'll even take a wooden sheath over Kydex.

Kydex is too form fitting and it holds grit around the edge of the blade, Kydex ends up working the same as sheathing your knife in a block of sandpaper.

 

[GAGL]

secure-ex, unlike kydex, can be left in a car on a very hot day without deforming or loosing its shape.

secure-ex can be injection molded.

i like them, altough they feel a bit cheap.

 

[dogstar]

Cold steel should mold in a 20 degree inclusive V into their secure-ex sheath. Then it become a pull-through knife sharpener! Bonus value-added feature!

 

[G. Scott H.]

not all are a problem. some dont touch, some do no matter how ya try to sheath and unsheath it.

you'd have to own enough samples to see the problem. if ya havent run into yet yourself, the complaints make little sense.

some fit so tight its impossible to get in and out one handed. ive only ran into one like this so far. I have an osi that doesn't fit its sheath. fits the oss. but not the osi.


some wont fit the same knives in different steels. have a san mai srk doesn't fit right in its sheath. if I put a sk5 or vg1 in that sheath, fits fine. i suspect one place makes the sheaths...and different makers do the various same models in different steels, and the tolerances aren't always right.

in the end they have not been great unless ya got one that was. many haven't.

True. I had this problem on only 2 SecureEx sheaths: my Recon Scout and one SRK. I bought a Kydex sheath on ebay for the Scout and a Spartan universal MOLLE Cordura sheath for my 2 SRKs that came with SecureEX (one didn't have the issue, but I liked the Spartan sheath enough that I treated it to one as well). Other SecureEx sheaths have been fine.

 

[tess_lawrie_fan]

Cold steel should mold in a 20 degree inclusive V into their secure-ex sheath. Then it become a pull-through knife sharpener! Bonus value-added feature!

Please don't give them ideas...

 

[Hombre]

I am maybe a strange person but for me it has not to do if the blade will be dull or not. That they can probably fix!

For me, it is that you do not make a wonderful Bowie/Tanto blade in San Mai and put it in a plastic or a Cordura sheath… It doesn´t belong together… It shall be in a good leather sheath… but that is my opinion…

Now I am not a car guy but I shouldn´t buy a Ford Mustang 66 with a Skoda engine either… even if it should work…

When it comes to different kind of steel it is hard for me to understand how one kind of steel can be fantastic one week and then a newer steel come and make the other steel worthless the next week…

My English is not what it should be because I am Swedish but I hope you can understand what I mean…

 

[nephron]

I am maybe a strange person but for me it has not to do if the blade will be dull or not. That they can probably fix!

For me, it is that you do not make a wonderful Bowie/Tanto blade in San Mai and put it in a plastic or a Cordura sheath… It doesn´t belong together… It shall be in a good leather sheath… but that is my opinion…

Now I am not a car guy but I shouldn´t buy a Ford Mustang 66 with a Skoda engine either… even if it should work…

When it comes to different kind of steel it is hard for me to understand how one kind of steel can be fantastic one week and then a newer steel come and make the other steel worthless the next week…

My English is not what it should be because I am Swedish but I hope you can understand what I mean…

I agree, at that price(I would pay more)you should get both leather and plastic. They come out with different steels for the marketing dept., like everything else. Your English is better than my Swedish.

 

[NG VI]

Spyderco H1 knives paired with GFM sheaths often had the same issue. Every one that I owned, which included two Aqua Salts, a Jumpmaster (first gen) and an Ed Schempp Rock Salt. I made Kydex sheaths for each of them, which removed the edge dulling issue on sheathing and unsheathing.

Have you ever done one for the Magnum Warcraft Tanto XL? I feel like it might be a good candidate for a hybrid sheath or maybe one with a kydex insert and leather main body

 

[David Mary]

Not yet, but it would be a simple matter. A Boltaron sheath, that is. Haven't gotten into leather yet, but maybe Sharp & Fiery could do that part of the job, as he is in Canada as well, and also quite a talented leather crafter from what I have seen.

 

[NG VI]

Not yet, but it would be a simple matter. A Boltaron sheath, that is. Haven't gotten into leather yet, but maybe Sharp & Fiery could do that part of the job, as he is in Canada as well, and also quite a talented leather crafter from what I have seen.

It is very big, XL in fact, a Magnum even