Why does every one hate 440c stainless steel so much ?

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Nothing wrong with 440C stainless steel with good corrosion and wear resistance. It's just that there are better alternatives these days specially with Powdered Metal steels. Start with 154CM and move on to CPM-154, CPM-S30V, CPM-S35VN, etc. while increasing wear resistance, corrosion resistance, hardness, toughness, polishability and machining.
 
My BM was 440c, no problems here. The older gen prefer carbon steel. That's what they had at the time before all this super steel we have now. I do prefer carbon sometimes. It was said before, if it's heat treated right it should be good. Gary
 
As mentioned,
I call it the China Syndrome! The steels marked 440 series and even stuff marked 440C that may not be it or had a poor HT.
440A & 440C when HTed properly can make a very good serviceable knife. The Japanese AUS-6 & 8 are close to those two

I've use 440C from Niagara Speciality Metals for years and haven't had any problems with inclusions and the like? Can't speak for other stuff?
 
It's not so much hate it's just that there are better options available or that cheap foreign steel does about the same thing for less.
 
On the other hand, if I could "only" use 1080 or 1084 for the rest of my life, that would be fine too. We're a bit spoiled these days ;)

Rhinoknives1 said:
I've use 440C from Niagara Speciality Metals for years and haven't had any problems with inclusions and the like? Can't speak for other stuff?
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Ordering right from Niagara is wise... they're probably getting it from a reputable mill like Latrobe, B/U etc. Other suppliers... maybe not so much. You know the "orange peel" look that D2 is infamous for? I've had some "440C" from very popular knifemaking vendors that made D2 look flawless in comparison, as well as two bars that came back from HT at only high-40's Rc (mislabeled 416 most likely). :thumbdn:

Regardless of the source, for about the same cost and noticeably better performance across the board, I'll stick with CPM-154 or for a few dollars more, later generations of similar alloys, as stated above.
 
Hate to say it but I will not but China knives, I think we can do better elsewhere. Gary
 
james terrio said:
On the other hand, if I could "only" use 1080 or 1084 for the rest of my life, that would be fine too. We're a bit spoiled these days ;)



Ordering right from Niagara is wise... they're probably getting it from a reputable mill like Latrobe, B/U etc. Other suppliers... maybe not so much. You know the "orange peel" look that D2 is infamous for? I've had some "440C" from very popular knifemaking vendors that made D2 look flawless in comparison, as well as two bars that came back from HT at only high-40's Rc (mislabeled 416 most likely). :thumbdn:

Regardless of the source, for about the same cost and noticeably better performance across the board, I'll stick with CPM-154 or for a few dollars more, later generations of similar alloys, as stated above.
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I like and use both CPM-154 & 440C both straight from Niagara. Along with other CPM's On some of my 10-12 Chef knives, I really like that good ole 440C has those larger carbide clumps. Gives it a slightly toothy edge. For the mass attack of veggies for chili and for Cook's that do the Texas BBQ large Brisket cuts.
11 1/2" blade x 2 3/4" at the heel of 1/8" 440C RC to 59 by Paul Bos. Double dyed & stabilized Ash wood DSCN5692.jpg
 

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GaryC said:
Had China knives, we all have it but prefer better. Gary
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When expressing your disdain for chinese made knives, are you referring to any specific knife mentioned in this thread, or are you assuming that all knives made with 440c are made in china?

Entrek knives are 440c, and they are made in the USA. I don't know about other 440c knives.
 
No ; guys l know it is not a good steel by todays standards. In terms of tough ness ; edge holding and ease of sharpening it is far inferior to ATS34 and 154CM which is in turn superseded in edge holding and toughness by D2. I know that. But there are people saying that 1095 carbon steel ( probably one of the oldest steels ) is better than 440c. Isn't that a bit of an exaggeration?
Personally ; here is how l rank my knives:
Toughness : 1) A2
2) 1095
3) D2
4) ATS34 or 154cm
5) 440c
In terms edge retention it is
1) D2
2) A2
3) 1095
4) 154cm
5) 440c
In terms of ease of sharpening
1) A2
2) 1095
3)ATS34
4)D2
5) 440c.
440c is the last choice of mine in all those fields. But people shouldn't say its completely foul.
 
carbonsteelfan said:
In terms edge retention it is
1) D2
2) A2
3) 1095
4) 154cm
5) 440c
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Your edge retention with the carbon steels in a dry environment MAY be as you list, but in a wet environment, D2, A2 and 1095 will all have less edge retention than 440C.

Stating that it is not a good steel by today's standards is........incorrect.....blatantly, patently WRONG!!! If there are suppliers that are not manufacturing it properly, that is a problem with quality control, and has nothing to do with the basic recipe for the steel.

You don't seem to be reading with an open mind...YOU started this thread talking about 440C hate, and that has not been indicated by the general response.

If you don't like 440C, that is fine, there is a steel for every preference.....but I seriously doubt that you are going to change perception that people have with a thread on BFC....and I also don't think that you have been exposed to 440C knives from custom makers who have an optimal heat treat....these knives will cut and hold an edge with the best of them. I have a Boye Dendritic 440C that cuts like a laser, forever....also have some older knives of 440C that would also hold up with the best of them....Barry Dawson produces an exceptionally fine KNIFE with 440C, I own four of them.

Gil Hibben was one of the first people to use decent stainless steel in knives...it was 440C, bearings that he got from Boeing that he forged down to knife like billets if memory serves, like back in the early 1960's....so if nothing else, 440C is certainly the longest enduring stainless steel used in knives.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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No. No. I never called it a bad steel. If you read my first post then you would see that l own and admire a custom made jack Crain 440c machete. I love it. But l will say that in a Dry environment those carbon steels do beat 440c in terms of edge holding. You are right about wet environments. I have no problem with the steel. The two knives in 440c which l own are very functional. But do a search online . There are actually lots of people who disgust 440c. If any thing l disagree with them. That's why l was curious to know why people dislike it. And yes ; there are people on the forums saying that they HATE 440c. I never said l agree with them. I will say that by to days standards there are far better. But l never said l had a problem with it. But 440c does have a rock well hardness of 56-57. I know this because Gil Hi ben said it himself. Other Steels like ATS34 ; 154CM and D2 can.be hardened up to RC60 or even 61. So that does make it comparitively inferior to those steels.
 
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On the other hand, if I could "only" use 1080 or 1084 for the rest of my life, that would be fine too. We're a bit spoiled these days
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That is my feelings about it in all honesty. I still use my old Schrade USA 1095 knives and delight in them every time I sit down and edge them. Likewise O-1 is one I could live with for all my needs.

On the other hand I am fortunate there is a large choice, and if you are selective a better quality steel and heat treated knife to suit about anybodies needs now more than at any time in my 53 years. I've been fortunate enough to find out what true performance is in knives from guys like Phil Wilson and Big Chris.

Of course the quality, selection and performance of production knives keeps going up too. Several recent Spyderco, Kershaw/ZT, and Strider sprints are available that they just would not have attempted 5-7 years ago.

I had enough knives to last me and my son, and his kids a lifetime years ago but I still find reasons to grab a new steel or combination every now and then. They keep getting better and better.

I was just sharpening a pretty nice Boker 440C Titanium lockback the other day. Sure I could get by with it but I just really don't like it. I've heard the CTS powder steel version solves the grain problem I don't care for but I haven't tried it yet. Maybe someday. In the mean time we all have choices to suit us. I don't claim my choices to be better. I just like them more.
 
I really like what little 440c I've used. Even on the "cheap Chinese" rough riders. Wait, is it c or a? Idk, either way.
 
carbonsteelfan said:
No ; guys l know it is not a good steel by todays standards. In terms of tough ness ; edge holding and ease of sharpening it is far inferior to ATS34 and 154CM which is in turn superseded in edge holding and toughness by D2. I know that. But there are people saying that 1095 carbon steel ( probably one of the oldest steels ) is better than 440c. Isn't that a bit of an exaggeration?
Personally ; here is how l rank my knives:
Toughness : 1) A2
2) 1095
3) D2
4) ATS34 or 154cm
5) 440c
In terms edge retention it is
1) D2
2) A2
3) 1095
4) 154cm
5) 440c
In terms of ease of sharpening
1) A2
2) 1095
3)ATS34
4)D2
5) 440c.
440c is the last choice of mine in all those fields. But people shouldn't say its completely foul.
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CSF,

I'm a steel simpleton and I'm sure one of the better experts will jump in and correct me but 2 things jump out about your rankings.

First, the lists are something like rankings of caffeinated morning drinks or brewed evening drinks. Better to separate out tea from coffee and compare them or beers ales and compare them. My simplistic view of steels is the tea/coffee or beer/ale split is among course grained steels and fine grained steels.

Fine Grained: carbon, 440A, 12C27, 420HC, Aus 8
Course Grained: 440C, A2, D2, 13C26

Second issue I have with your listing is that at it sweeps away differences in the heat treat which is done by the knife maker. It's like talking about Italian roast coffee. Really need to talk about Starbucks vs Peets vs Vermont Coffee Roasters. For example, Case takes their 420HC to about 56c and Buck takes theirs to about 58Rc. They feel very different. Old Bucks used 440C at 58/59Rc. One reason some old timers didn't like Bucks 440C is that it was too hard and abrasion resistant to sharpen with old traditional stones.

Third issue (did I say 2?) is blade geometry. Subtle, minor changes in blade geometry can really affect perceived "edge retention". Very thin blades like Victorinox SAKs or many of Bucks very thin hollow grinds will continue to cut regardless of the sharpness of the apex. Another reason why some old timers didn't like some Buck 440C is that back in the day, Buck ground their blades with a swell just above the cutting edge for more strength but it made it harder to sharpen and it took away from pure slicing ability.

In my limited experience, course and fine grained steels dull differently. Fine grained steels seem to make fine shavings better than my 440C blades which isn't surprising since they take finer edges. But 440C will keep cutting vegetables longer as it maintains a "toothy" edge, which course grained steels are known for. Fine grained steels round out or roll where as course grained steels chip.

I'm a bit surprised that you've found 1095 better than 440C in terms of edge retention. I think most people equate edge retention with abrasion resistance and, all things like edge geometry and heat treatment equal, course grained steels are more abrasion resistant.


I think you're right in your basic assertion that 440C shouldn't be hated. Far from it. It's a steel of a certain kind and steels of that kind are good at certain things. I'll leave it to others discuss the finer points of different course grained steels. But I would suggest starting there. Compare 440C to other course grained steels and keep an eye on hardness and geometry.
 
I'm always amused when folks point to the work of pioneers like Hibben and Loveless and Moran as "proof" that a certain steel from 40 or 60 years ago is "still good enough". That completely misses the point of why those men were true pioneers! Those cats were often scoffed at, even ridiculed in their day for seeking out new alloys and techniques. Loveless in particular walked away from 440C in the 70's and continued to work on and with newer alloys nearly until his death. Where would we be today if they hadn't done their research and experimentation, and had simply gone on following the status quo?

Kohai999 said:
If there are suppliers that are not manufacturing it properly, that is a problem with quality control, and has nothing to do with the basic recipe for the steel.
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Correct. The chemistry behind 440C is sound, and yes, it most certainly was considered a "hot new super steel" several decades ago. If a person likes big clumps of carbides, that's fine. When a maker like Laurence has sourced good quality steel and employs optimum HT, it will probably surpass any reasonable person's needs. On the other hand there are still some makers and obviously manus who merely shop around for the cheapest price and use the first HT "recipe" they stumble across... we know where that leads...

Unfortunately, numbers on a datasheet don't mean a whole lot unless you actually know and trust the mill... and the rolling plant, the maker and the heat-treater.

On the other hand, finding a "bad" piece of a more recent particle metallurgy steel is extremely rare - in fact I don't even know of any quality complaints in the last ten years or so about "powder" steels coming out of Crucible, B/U, Latrobe etc - and they're cleaner, finer-grained, more homogenous alloys with improved chemistry to begin with. That's the whole point.

Contrary to widespread internet babbling, steel mills don't spend millions on developing this stuff just for fun or to be the "new flavor of the month". There are specific and important reasons behind the improvements in stainless/tool steels in the last couple decades.

Whether or not most people would ever really notice or care about those improvements in a knife blade - especially a mass-produced one - is a whole different question. But my clients do care, and so do I.
 
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