Why does every one hate 440c stainless steel so much ?

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My only point is that 440c maybe outdated compared to today's newer blade steels but, it still makes the cut.:)
 
pinnah said:
CSF,

I'm a steel simpleton and I'm sure one of the better experts will jump in and correct me but 2 things jump out about your rankings.

First, the lists are something like rankings of caffeinated morning drinks or brewed evening drinks. Better to separate out tea from coffee and compare them or beers ales and compare them. My simplistic view of steels is the tea/coffee or beer/ale split is among course grained steels and fine grained steels.

Fine Grained: carbon, 440A, 12C27, 420HC, Aus 8
Course Grained: 440C, A2, D2, 13C26

Second issue I have with your listing is that at it sweeps away differences in the heat treat which is done by the knife maker. It's like talking about Italian roast coffee. Really need to talk about Starbucks vs Peets vs Vermont Coffee Roasters. For example, Case takes their 420HC to about 56c and Buck takes theirs to about 58Rc. They feel very different. Old Bucks used 440C at 58/59Rc. One reason some old timers didn't like Bucks 440C is that it was too hard and abrasion resistant to sharpen with old traditional stones.

Third issue (did I say 2?) is blade geometry. Subtle, minor changes in blade geometry can really affect perceived "edge retention". Very thin blades like Victorinox SAKs or many of Bucks very thin hollow grinds will continue to cut regardless of the sharpness of the apex. Another reason why some old timers didn't like some Buck 440C is that back in the day, Buck ground their blades with a swell just above the cutting edge for more strength but it made it harder to sharpen and it took away from pure slicing ability.

In my limited experience, course and fine grained steels dull differently. Fine grained steels seem to make fine shavings better than my 440C blades which isn't surprising since they take finer edges. But 440C will keep cutting vegetables longer as it maintains a "toothy" edge, which course grained steels are known for. Fine grained steels round out or roll where as course grained steels chip.

I'm a bit surprised that you've found 1095 better than 440C in terms of edge retention. I think most people equate edge retention with abrasion resistance and, all things like edge geometry and heat treatment equal, course grained steels are more abrasion resistant.


I think you're right in your basic assertion that 440C shouldn't be hated. Far from it. It's a steel of a certain kind and steels of that kind are good at certain things. I'll leave it to others discuss the finer points of different course grained steels. But I would suggest starting there. Compare 440C to other course grained steels and keep an eye on hardness and geometry.
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Ale is a type of beer. Just like lager, pilsener, stout, porter, india pale ale, tripel, etc. Beer encompasses many styles. All ale is beer. All beer is not ale.

13c26 is a fine grained steel.

Steels can dull by blunting, fracture, and other methods. Performance is more complex than trying to categorize steels as fine grained or coarse grained.
 
skyhorse said:
My only point is that 440c maybe outdated compared to today's newer blade steels but, it still makes the cut.:)
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Makes a fine cut too. My Chinese made Boker S2 with 440c is the sharpest blade (from the factory and after sharpening myself) that I have ever had.
 
Stainless has a place in the cutlery world for obvious reasons. I have a Normark fillet blade that has seen more use than just about any other knife in my kitchen. It is flexible and fairly easy to sharpen. I don't worry about it much since it has a rubber handle. It cuts well and does the jobs at hand in food prep.

Back in the day I had two Western Bait-Camp knives. They enjoyed a generous handle and served me well up until I gave them away as gifts. Stainless has a way of being easy to store and not worry about. In other words, they are more simple and require less care than carbon knives.
 
pinnah said:
CSF,

I'm a steel simpleton and I'm sure one of the better experts will jump in and correct me but 2 things jump out about your rankings.

First, the lists are something like rankings of caffeinated morning drinks or brewed evening drinks. Better to separate out tea from coffee and compare them or beers ales and compare them. My simplistic view of steels is the tea/coffee or beer/ale split is among course grained steels and fine grained steels.

Fine Grained: carbon, 440A, 12C27, 420HC, Aus 8
Course Grained: 440C, A2, D2, 13C26

Second issue I have with your listing is that at it sweeps away differences in the heat treat which is done by the knife maker. It's like talking about Italian roast coffee. Really need to talk about Starbucks vs Peets vs Vermont Coffee Roasters. For example, Case takes their 420HC to about 56c and Buck takes theirs to about 58Rc. They feel very different. Old Bucks used 440C at 58/59Rc. One reason some old timers didn't like Bucks 440C is that it was too hard and abrasion resistant to sharpen with old traditional stones.

Third issue (did I say 2?) is blade geometry. Subtle, minor changes in blade geometry can really affect perceived "edge retention". Very thin blades like Victorinox SAKs or many of Bucks very thin hollow grinds will continue to cut regardless of the sharpness of the apex. Another reason why some old timers didn't like some Buck 440C is that back in the day, Buck ground their blades with a swell just above the cutting edge for more strength but it made it harder to sharpen and it took away from pure slicing ability.

In my limited experience, course and fine grained steels dull differently. Fine grained steels seem to make fine shavings better than my 440C blades which isn't surprising since they take finer edges. But 440C will keep cutting vegetables longer as it maintains a "toothy" edge, which course grained steels are known for. Fine grained steels round out or roll where as course grained steels chip.

I'm a bit surprised that you've found 1095 better than 440C in terms of edge retention. I think most people equate edge retention with abrasion resistance and, all things like edge geometry and heat treatment equal, course grained steels are more abrasion resistant.


I think you're right in your basic assertion that 440C shouldn't be hated. Far from it. It's a steel of a certain kind and steels of that kind are good at certain things. I'll leave it to others discuss the finer points of different course grained steels. But I would suggest starting there. Compare 440C to other course grained steels and keep an eye on hardness and geometry.
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Well Pinna, your stock just jumped 300% in my opinion. Your post is worth quoting, not only because it mirrors my experience, but it nicely integrates a number of aspects in a cogent manner.

My experience with 440c is with my early Buck 110 knives and some Benchmade blades. The 'toothy' edge is present and in my usage, quite a plus. Mirror edges have their place in the scheme of things, but as a working edge, I like 'toothy'. Thanks for that great post, Pinna.
 
Fanglekai said:
Ale is a type of beer. Just like lager, pilsener, stout, porter, india pale ale, tripel, etc. Beer encompasses many styles. All ale is beer. All beer is not ale.
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Thank you for the much needed and important clarification.

13c26 is a fine grained steel.
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Right. Sorry. I was thinking of Sandvik 19C27, which is their course grained, high abrasion steel.

Steels can dull by blunting, fracture, and other methods.
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Total agreement.

Performance is more complex than trying to categorize steels as fine grained or coarse grained.
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Again total agreement. I mentioned grain structure, blade geometry and heat treatment. Perhaps you could help the OP by further expanding on that?
 
cvarbonsteelfan,
440C With a proper HT will hold an edge far better than the 10XX series and your 1095 mentioned. 1095 may be more desirable in large camp, Bolo or Machete type knives because of the toughness of those steels. meaning they are less likely to chip or deform with Charpy or impact.

As mentioned, in a marine or just plain wet environment, I may still go with 440C at about 55-57 RC for a Machete or camp knife.
 
james terrio said:
I'm always amused when folks point to the work of pioneers like Hibben and Loveless and Moran as "proof" that a certain steel from 40 or 60 years ago is "still good enough". That completely misses the point of why those men were true pioneers! Those cats were often scoffed at, even ridiculed in their day for seeking out new alloys and techniques. Loveless in particular walked away from 440C in the 70's and continued to work on and with newer alloys nearly until his death. Where would we be today if they hadn't done their research and experimentation, and had simply gone on following the status quo?



Correct. The chemistry behind 440C is sound, and yes, it most certainly was considered a "hot new super steel" several decades ago. If a person likes big clumps of carbides, that's fine. When a maker like Laurence has sourced good quality steel and employs optimum HT, it will probably surpass any reasonable person's needs. On the other hand there are still some makers and obviously manus who merely shop around for the cheapest price and use the first HT "recipe" they stumble across... we know where that leads...

Unfortunately, numbers on a datasheet don't mean a whole lot unless you actually know and trust the mill... and the rolling plant, the maker and the heat-treater.

On the other hand, finding a "bad" piece of a more recent particle metallurgy steel is extremely rare - in fact I don't even know of any quality complaints in the last ten years or so about "powder" steels coming out of Crucible, B/U, Latrobe etc - and they're cleaner, finer-grained, more homogenous alloys with improved chemistry to begin with. That's the whole point.

Contrary to widespread internet babbling, steel mills don't spend millions on developing this stuff just for fun or to be the "new flavor of the month". There are specific and important reasons behind the improvements in stainless/tool steels in the last couple decades.

Whether or not most people would ever really notice or care about those improvements in a knife blade - especially a mass-produced one - is a whole different question. But my clients do care, and so do I.
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James,

I am not pointing to the pioneers of knifemaking as proof of anything, simply pointing out a bit of history germane to the discussion.

I like 440C, but like a bunch of other steels as well.....I personally prefer stainless for most knives, and only carbon steel for swords, but that is a different story.

Like I said before, the Boye Dendritic 440C that I have cuts like a laser, but it isn't the best performing EDC I have. That would be a John W. Smith Evolution folder in S30v, another steel that has its' fans and detractors. That particular folder went three years with little more than ceramic stick touchups and cut exceedingly well due to HT and edge geometry...no edge folding or tearout that I experienced.

Someone else may love ZDP, but the two knives that I had use with it(William Henry paring knife and Spyderco Calypso) were disasters....pitting and edge tearout all day long...it's all what you experience(and what your expectationas are) at the end of the day.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
I am not pointing to the pioneers of knifemaking as proof of anything, simply pointing out a bit of history germane to the discussion.
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As was I. :) It was not my intent to "call you out" on that; your mention of Mr. Hibben just reminded me of a pattern I see often in discussions like these. As you know, I have a tendency to get a bit wordy... it's only because I'm passionate about the whole topic, not because I'm trying to get in anyone's face.
 
From what I hear is that it is a decent steel with the proper heat treat. That is what seems to be the real key to steel nowadays.
The big problem is that I haven't had 440c knife that was good (though I haven't spent much on reputable companies that use it though)
 
I know that 1095 is tougher than 440c generally. But tell me one thing. Does 440c hold a better edge than 1095 carbon steel. Initially l didn't think so ; because while l have plenty of 1095 knives ( 8 fixed blades and 5 folders ) the only 440c knife l have is a Jack Crain Predator 440c machete. But today l had a chance to use my 1095 friction folder and my fathers 440c Gil Hibben Alamo Bow ie. 440c holds a better edge. I would like to correct my ranking of steels purely in terms of edge retention as :
1) D2 ( best edge holder IMO)
2) A2
3) ATS34
4) 440c
5) 1095.
As many of you guys say ; 1095 takes a finer edge like what you might expect from a surgical knife or razor. 440c takes a toothy edge but holds it far longer than 1095 's fine edge.
 
I have a real affinity for old 440c. It was the first stainless i started using way back when and i had started using it because i didn't have much money and could't afford to waste much if a blade didn't work out (which happend more than a few times early on) so i bought the most cost effective stainless i could and started making some hunters with it. I was impressed with how it held up compared to other mass produced knives i was playing with and so i started using it in more harder use "tactical/utility" type blades and it still held its own very well. So well in fact that it took years of looking before i decided to replace it with 12c27 as my go-to standard steel for harder use fixed blades. People may look down on it for not being as super tough as some or able to hold an edge through 3 elk carcasses, but it holds an edge well enough for almost any task ever and its easy to sharpen when it does dull, and as far as toughness, yes there are way tougher steels out there but in my 20 years of using it i have done some severely destructive things to my 440c blades and they have left me feeling nothing but confident that if someone was to rely on one of them, that it would get them home safe every time. Just for example, i have used my knives to baton wood that was on par with desert ironwood for density, pry open doors, dig through mud walls, cut a whitetail deer antler in half, create full on shelters by cutting down small trees and even hacked through a steel bed frame and cut an old ammo box in half by batonning through it with a hammer. Don't get me wrong, i don't recommend most of these, but i have spent 15 years in the military and have had a lot of time on my hands on occasion... and sometimes just out of sheer boredome, ya try some stupid things.
 
james terrio said:
As was I. :) It was not my intent to "call you out" on that; your mention of Mr. Hibben just reminded me of a pattern I see often in discussions like these. As you know, I have a tendency to get a bit wordy... it's only because I'm passionate about the whole topic, not because I'm trying to get in anyone's face.
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Hi James,

I didn't feel "called out"....we are both passionate about knives, and that is a good thing....and I agree that in general, pointing out the choices and methodology of the masters as specious justification for a position shouldn't be necessary. Better to use it as possibly part of a discussion and focus on your own experiences.

There is no absolute "right" in steel choice or usage unless we are talking about using something like mild steel.:)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Don't own a 440c knife yet but my understanding is that most 440 knives get a bad rep from cheap knives labeled 440 stainless with poor heat treats that people assume may be 440c (thinking 440a/b/c are all the same or very close to each other) and cheap knives labeled 440c with bad heat treats. With a proper heat treat it is suppose to be a pretty decent steel, not a top dog like it used to be by todays standards but nothing to scoff at.

Take a look at 440a it has an even worse rep than 440c because there are so many knives made in 440a with horrible heat treats that a lot of people disregard it and think it's crap whether it has a good heat treat or not as they never experienced one that had a proper heat treat. Take a look at Rough Rider knives they use 440a with a proper heat treat and are highly regarded as great user knives in the traditional sub-forum, especially for the money est $5-10 they hit well above their price point. I've put one through it's paces and it's more than serviceable, but I have also used 440a with bad heat treats and it's the complete opposite, it's junk and not work carrying. It's the same story with 440c.
 
carbonsteelfan said:
I know that 1095 is tougher than 440c generally. But tell me one thing. Does 440c hold a better edge than 1095 carbon steel. Initially l didn't think so ; because while l have plenty of 1095 knives ( 8 fixed blades and 5 folders ) the only 440c knife l have is a Jack Crain Predator 440c machete. But today l had a chance to use my 1095 friction folder and my fathers 440c Gil Hibben Alamo Bow ie. 440c holds a better edge. I would like to correct my ranking of steels purely in terms of edge retention as :
1) D2 ( best edge holder IMO)
2) A2
3) ATS34
4) 440c
5) 1095.
As many of you guys say ; 1095 takes a finer edge like what you might expect from a surgical knife or razor. 440c takes a toothy edge but holds it far longer than 1095 's fine edge.
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CSF,

This depends entirely on what you mean by hold a better edge and how you're using the knife.

If you're batoning a knife through wood or using it to chop, carbon steel may tend or even roll (depending on the angle of the edge) but it generally won't chip, which is why carbon steels are often preferred for bushcraft, axes and machetes. On the other hand, a large carbide steel will likely chip and chip badly enough that it will need to be reprofiled.

If you're cleaning deer and cutting through tough hair and then fibrous flesh, carbon steel may round out fast and won't have enough of a toothy edge to finish the job whereas a large carbide steel like 440C might finish an entire deer or 3 before needing to be touched up.

All this to say that "holding an edge" depends on what you're cutting and how you're doing it. There is also the issue of field sharpening and some super steels get harder to maintain in the field whereas some non-super steels are easier to maintain. This is another part of overall performance you need to weigh.
 
I used to really be able to sharpen a knife. Then they started to make everything out of 440c and I had trouble. I can usually sharpen 440c to shaving but it doesnt' stay that way long. Then they started making knives out of other steels again and the problem went away.

I don't have that problem with carbon steel or even stuff like VG 10 and 12c27. I have some 440 c knives and like them, but for me at least I have trouble getting the edge where I want it. That I've noticed the only 2 I have trouble with are 440c and 420.
 
carbonsteelfan said:
I know that 1095 is tougher than 440c generally. But tell me one thing. Does 440c hold a better edge than 1095 carbon steel. Initially l didn't think so ; because while l have plenty of 1095 knives ( 8 fixed blades and 5 folders ) the only 440c knife l have is a Jack Crain Predator 440c machete. But today l had a chance to use my 1095 friction folder and my fathers 440c Gil Hibben Alamo Bow ie. 440c holds a better edge. I would like to correct my ranking of steels purely in terms of edge retention as :
1) D2 ( best edge holder IMO)
2) A2
3) ATS34
4) 440c
5) 1095.
As many of you guys say ; 1095 takes a finer edge like what you might expect from a surgical knife or razor. 440c takes a toothy edge but holds it far longer than 1095 's fine edge.
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If this is one of Hibben's own knives you have used a well HTed blade of 440C If it was from United Cutlery, There may be some room for improvement.

The best way to find how well a given steel works for a task is to have two identical knives. One made of Brand X "1095" & one of the leading brand. "440C
I did this with a 6" chef knife pattern years ago with those two steels with a professional HT for both.

Trying to compare a paring knife of 440C and a Machete of 1095 really won't tell you much except for the corrosion resistance of the stainless.
 
just adding on (if no one already added this) that people associate 440c which is a more than decent steel to 440a which isn't very well respected
 
I really like 440C, I've got it in an 18 Delta, but it doesn't get used much because of the size. I guess it's just not one of the super sexy high speed low drag alphabet steels that start with Ms or Zs. I even like 420HC from Buck. I've got a little fixed blade in it that I used today to strip a small tree of it's bark to make a walking stick because I was bored. They're all good steels. Use them, love them and forget the numbers.
 
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