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Why English in Hichschool curriculum?
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Temper said:
I won't argue that English is a very versatile language, capable of precisely expressing a range of concepts. Well, except for when it comes to cursing. But man. Who told you English was easy to learn? From everything I've ever understood, unless you're good at learning languages it isn't easy at all. Russian is likewise supposed to be difficult. Mandarin, too. My wife speaks a bit of Irish Gaelic, and she told me that it was harder than learning Italian because of all the verb and noun forms that you have to keep straight. When I say difficult, I'm referring to the complexity of the structures themselves in terms of spelling and grammar, as well as things like homophones, et cetera.
The Romance languages, now, those are easy to learn. I speak Spanish, and after a week in Rome I had a pretty firm understanding of what folks were saying around me. Given another week or so, who knows how far I could have gotten.
Of course, it's been years since I actively studied linguistics, so I may be leaving something important out. If I am, perhaps Esav will point it out.
James
James
Esav Benyamin
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Sure all the good stuff, we didn't even have English a thousand years ago ...
All languages are ways to communicate that human communities have found to their liking and their children find easy enough to learn. It's a standard linguistic concept that a language will mold the way a person sees the world. I think it works at least as much the other way: the way a society sees the world is the way its language develops.
But most of what makes a language what it is today is its history. Russian is a very conservative language structurally. Its form is similar to its earliest Indo-European ancestors over 6000 years ago. Of course, much grammar and almost all vocabulary have changed. But the structure closely resembles other Indo-European languages of that period: ancient Greek and Latin.
English has changed tremendously from its Germanic roots, having added a lot of Romance vocabulary and simplified its grammatical structure. This is typical of languages whose speakers are under pressure of mixing with different cultures. Chinese underwent a similar transformation to a language that breaks thought down into separate words, rather than using modifications of the words to express relationships.
But whatever the history, whatever the current structural or phonetic or terminological complexity, every language spoken by humans on Earth today is equally adept at expressing every needed concept. They may not all have the modern vocabulary of those spoken in urban-technological societies, but they always find it easy to add those words in. (This is why I recommend Tok Pisin as an excellent working introduction to how language develops and adapts.)
No language is superior to any other. Certainly not because its speakers happen to have a cultural advantage over their neighbors. After all, English speakers' cultural superiority was developed by speakers of Latin, Italian, Germanic dialects, Polish, French, Spanish, even Turkish ... all these and others made Western civilization what it is, even if English inherited its power.
Languages do have histories and specialties. English does vocabulary. It collects and adapts words from everywhere and nowhere and naturalizes them. Given a structure that allows a word to function as almost any part of speech, it makes for flexibility and poetry, but confuses non-native speakers with its seeming formlessness. Easy is as easy does.
All languages are ways to communicate that human communities have found to their liking and their children find easy enough to learn. It's a standard linguistic concept that a language will mold the way a person sees the world. I think it works at least as much the other way: the way a society sees the world is the way its language develops.
But most of what makes a language what it is today is its history. Russian is a very conservative language structurally. Its form is similar to its earliest Indo-European ancestors over 6000 years ago. Of course, much grammar and almost all vocabulary have changed. But the structure closely resembles other Indo-European languages of that period: ancient Greek and Latin.
English has changed tremendously from its Germanic roots, having added a lot of Romance vocabulary and simplified its grammatical structure. This is typical of languages whose speakers are under pressure of mixing with different cultures. Chinese underwent a similar transformation to a language that breaks thought down into separate words, rather than using modifications of the words to express relationships.
But whatever the history, whatever the current structural or phonetic or terminological complexity, every language spoken by humans on Earth today is equally adept at expressing every needed concept. They may not all have the modern vocabulary of those spoken in urban-technological societies, but they always find it easy to add those words in. (This is why I recommend Tok Pisin as an excellent working introduction to how language develops and adapts.)
No language is superior to any other. Certainly not because its speakers happen to have a cultural advantage over their neighbors. After all, English speakers' cultural superiority was developed by speakers of Latin, Italian, Germanic dialects, Polish, French, Spanish, even Turkish ... all these and others made Western civilization what it is, even if English inherited its power.
Languages do have histories and specialties. English does vocabulary. It collects and adapts words from everywhere and nowhere and naturalizes them. Given a structure that allows a word to function as almost any part of speech, it makes for flexibility and poetry, but confuses non-native speakers with its seeming formlessness. Easy is as easy does.
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As a 3rd year college student I can tell you that if you plan on continuing your education you'd better take high school english somewhat seriously. You need very good reading skills as they will expect you to read unbeleivable amounts of stuff and then write about it on a regular basis. It doesn't matter about the subject, pretty much any class but a math class you will be expected to read at least 100 pages a week.
I will agree with you that 99% of the content of english classes is poorly chosen horseshit. The reading gives you very little useful knowledge and anything you learn from it will not be beneficial to anyone but an english (sometimes history) major. I suppose it does teach you the art of forcing youself to read things that are unbearably long and boring. I also think they cover too many topics and require some people to take too many classes. Too many people leave high school without basic writing skills. They should not bother learning poetry. They should learn to form a point and a write about it clearly. And the people who have proven they know the basics, should not be forced to learn to write poetry, short stories or anything else they don't want to
I will agree with you that 99% of the content of english classes is poorly chosen horseshit. The reading gives you very little useful knowledge and anything you learn from it will not be beneficial to anyone but an english (sometimes history) major. I suppose it does teach you the art of forcing youself to read things that are unbearably long and boring. I also think they cover too many topics and require some people to take too many classes. Too many people leave high school without basic writing skills. They should not bother learning poetry. They should learn to form a point and a write about it clearly. And the people who have proven they know the basics, should not be forced to learn to write poetry, short stories or anything else they don't want to
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I am glad that some one brought this thread to my attention. I normally do not pay much attention to how I type things (most often in the wine and cheese forum).
I really would like to take the time at this moment to recommend a book titled English the Mother Tongue (in cheek). It is most enjoyable book about how it (English) developed to be as it is today. I cannot seem to get my copy of it back from my daughter, (she grad. SMU-2002 English Major). Me- I was never able to finish formal school after my time in the Navy and I so regret that. However I can vouch that a mastery of English will help you go far in being able to communicate complex thoughts and concepts to others. The simple street English slang may be amusing but it does not lend it self to expressing things to others except those in the rather small community that developed it.
The art, romance and most importantly the emotion of being a complete person is nurtured by the learning of English as it is today by studying the non-technical use of it. It is the words in the poetry and songs of the sole that speaks to others and helps them to understand what you, from your sole, are trying to say, why even Rap has a valid place in that effort. That is why it is important to study the art of poetry and songs were license is granted to not follow rules that help to communicate cleanly and clearly concepts other then emotion. You must know the differences and when it is allowed and when it is not.
Mastery of English is a mastery of communications and that takes vocabulary. You should learn and know your words; they can be your most important and most effective weapons to defend yourself with. In todays world, in civilized countries it many times is the only weapon at your disposal. It becomes really important to express your self better and thus be better understood then the other person if you are in competition or in an adversary position with them. It enables you to speak and write so that others cannot turn and twist your words to make it seem that you have said something you did not say.
As no one who reads here in these ether pages would go in to combat with out being armed, one should not go into the world of adults with out as much education as your mind can hold. Remember the old A$$s have had time to learn a few things by surviving this long and there is NO fair fight. Boxing is not a fight; it is a contest using fighting skills. Here there is lots of talk of being ready and keeping a weapon ready. Why, if you can relate to keeping a personal defense knife sharp, would you possibility go in to the world with your best weapon you are allowed, your mind, dull and unable to cut to the quick of the mind of the man who will PAY you money that you can live on?
Or explain to an officer of the law in a reasonable manner your position of reason that he should listen to YOU let alone believe you over the other person?
You are out to get ahead of the other person and provide for your self and yours because life is not a game or contest and it has few rules and it is NOT fairly played. If you dont provide well enough your child or wife or YOU can and will suffer for it. Today education is your best weapon and unlike any other, you can sharpen it to the point of splitting an atom.
I shall not bother you any longer, you get it or you dont. I am not in competition with you younger kids any longer or with the ones I may spar with here. I made mine and can rest now not having to defend it by force like in the days of knights and robbers or cowboys and Indians. I would be one of the shoot first ask questions later if any thing seemed a threat.
Good night,
Dave, usn ret ss
I really would like to take the time at this moment to recommend a book titled English the Mother Tongue (in cheek). It is most enjoyable book about how it (English) developed to be as it is today. I cannot seem to get my copy of it back from my daughter, (she grad. SMU-2002 English Major). Me- I was never able to finish formal school after my time in the Navy and I so regret that. However I can vouch that a mastery of English will help you go far in being able to communicate complex thoughts and concepts to others. The simple street English slang may be amusing but it does not lend it self to expressing things to others except those in the rather small community that developed it.
The art, romance and most importantly the emotion of being a complete person is nurtured by the learning of English as it is today by studying the non-technical use of it. It is the words in the poetry and songs of the sole that speaks to others and helps them to understand what you, from your sole, are trying to say, why even Rap has a valid place in that effort. That is why it is important to study the art of poetry and songs were license is granted to not follow rules that help to communicate cleanly and clearly concepts other then emotion. You must know the differences and when it is allowed and when it is not.
Mastery of English is a mastery of communications and that takes vocabulary. You should learn and know your words; they can be your most important and most effective weapons to defend yourself with. In todays world, in civilized countries it many times is the only weapon at your disposal. It becomes really important to express your self better and thus be better understood then the other person if you are in competition or in an adversary position with them. It enables you to speak and write so that others cannot turn and twist your words to make it seem that you have said something you did not say.
As no one who reads here in these ether pages would go in to combat with out being armed, one should not go into the world of adults with out as much education as your mind can hold. Remember the old A$$s have had time to learn a few things by surviving this long and there is NO fair fight. Boxing is not a fight; it is a contest using fighting skills. Here there is lots of talk of being ready and keeping a weapon ready. Why, if you can relate to keeping a personal defense knife sharp, would you possibility go in to the world with your best weapon you are allowed, your mind, dull and unable to cut to the quick of the mind of the man who will PAY you money that you can live on?
Or explain to an officer of the law in a reasonable manner your position of reason that he should listen to YOU let alone believe you over the other person?
You are out to get ahead of the other person and provide for your self and yours because life is not a game or contest and it has few rules and it is NOT fairly played. If you dont provide well enough your child or wife or YOU can and will suffer for it. Today education is your best weapon and unlike any other, you can sharpen it to the point of splitting an atom.
I shall not bother you any longer, you get it or you dont. I am not in competition with you younger kids any longer or with the ones I may spar with here. I made mine and can rest now not having to defend it by force like in the days of knights and robbers or cowboys and Indians. I would be one of the shoot first ask questions later if any thing seemed a threat.
Good night,
Dave, usn ret ss
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Good night.
334dave said:
Excellent book, 334Dave, and might I add, it is that fact alone, that you speak english, that should give you an urge to study it. You want to make your thoughts known, your ideas heard? You must be able to communicate them in an intelligent, understandable manner, this should be the end-all goal of any learning.
My finest regards,
J.S.
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Hey, I've got a final exam tomorrow for that class. If I do well, I can pass the quarter.
howzit
Proper speech and use of language makes it easier for people of various backgrounds to communicate.
Language is an integral part of any civilization. Without a structured language there would be no way of passing along information. The lessons of history would be lost forever and and the recipe for my mom's brownies would die with her.
Proper speech and use of language makes it easier for people of various backgrounds to communicate.
Language is an integral part of any civilization. Without a structured language there would be no way of passing along information. The lessons of history would be lost forever and and the recipe for my mom's brownies would die with her.
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underaged! said:
I'll give you a couple of practical reasons.
First, How are you going to get in to college?
If you score poorly on your college entrance exams you will severely limit your options.
Second, Nearly every college and university in America now requires you to take an "English proficiency exam" to graduate. It doesn't matter what you studied. Even english majors must take it.
Not going to college? Why do you want to wear a paper hat to work every day for the rest of your life?
Drew
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I plan on going Honolulu Community College, through a trade school. Or go Pearl Harbor. Since 8th grade I have been interested in sheetmetal working and welding.
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TeHWah said:
"First, How are you going to get in to college... Nearly every college and university in America now requires you to take an "English proficiency exam" to graduate. It doesn't matter what you studied..Not going to college?"
underage said:
1st- Why thanks much for your comment! Very nice to hear form a professional troll, I as having not yet been labeled as a bustard or been banded as yet take that as a compliant. Cheers and heres to starting $hit and mixing well with light stirring!
Some seem to think that collage is the last and only answer to education and work life. While I will brag that my daughter made it, I acknowledge that it is not the only avenue to supporting yourself. I did not get a degree but my education did not stop and I made a good living with heavy responsibility and decisions to make. Not all are made of the stuff to put on fancy duds and pontificate at work. I worked with many with engineering degrees and at times made close to the same money they started at sometimes more. I will say that I was at the top of my field and could not make additional pay with out going to get a formal BS on a paper.
To want to work in sheet metal and welding is honarable and admirable. There are many who make a successful living at it. I currently hope you do and are GOOD at it. But why simply because you wont Have to have a Degree stop learning. I may not have to carry an edged weapon or know how to use one for defense or attack but it does not mean that I do not. Learn from what is said here by them of like mind who are elder and learned at the "School of Hard Knocks.
Learn what you have to for your metal work, but as i advised my daughter, dont stop when you have enught, you never know when your words, (and other knowledge) verbally or pen to paper, will be needed to advance your cause!
Again I cannot make enough of an allegory to an education and skill in language being your weapons to assist you in your mission to secede in life, weather through learned physical skills as using a weapon, welding or English to communicate.
Later- "oldDave,usn,ret,ss and part time baby troll
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Are you refering to me? I was hoping that you guys would just let this thread die. :yawn:
howiesatwork
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underaged! said:
No, 334dave was referring to himself. It was a self-deprecating joke, I think.
334dave has offered some sage advice in this thread.
So, how did the exam go?
Howie
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ok, I guess, I think I got the vocab down, story structure/elements was good. There were some parts I didn't know though, and I don't think my essays were too hot. I'm thinking C, maybe. I hope. At least.