Why inferior steels in knives?

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Ron Texas said:
That Benchmade can get $200 for a flimsy FRN Bugout is proof of how crazy this market is.
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I get what you're saying but I wouldn't say it's crazy in the scheme of markets in general. I think nearly every industry that makes any type of product or has a service generally has at least a few companies that have an equivalent of the butterfly tax. It's a good reminder that it's not just what you are physically receiving as a product but the entire message and reputation behind it. Whether it is warranted is a whole different story.

Even many services are like this. You can overpay for a very well-known lawyer accountant private detective etc. it doesn't always mean they are better it just means the market for the above reasons have decided people value it more beyond just simple XYZ calculable reasons.
 
knarfeng said:
I disagree that 440A and 420HC are inferior to alloys which you say give acceptable performance. (AUS8, 14C28N, 5160, 12C27)

There are two modes which cause dulling of a blade.
One is wearing away due to abrasion. Carbides improve wear resistance. So 440C and AUS10 and PM steels.
The other is deformation. The edge bends. A proper heat treat can fix that.

420HC, NitroV, 440A, 13C26, 14C28N et. al. can be heat treated such that the blade edge won't bend. But 420HC and 440A have not always been heat treated very hard, and they get a bad rap. They can perform just as well as the others in this group, and there is test data to prove it.

440A can be heat treated to 58HRC.
Buck's spec for their 420HC steel is also 58.

Properly heat treated, these alloys have edge retention equal to alloys that you say are acceptable for your use. In fact, 440A has better edge retention than either AUS8 or 14C28 in Larrin's testing.
knifesteelnerds.com

Knife Steels Rated by a Metallurgist - Toughness, Edge Retention, and Corrosion Resistance - Knife Steel Nerds

Steel Metallurgist Larrin Thomas uses tests of knife steels to rate the steels and explains the factors that control performance.
knifesteelnerds.com knifesteelnerds.com

View attachment 3121114
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From this chart looks like 14C28N is one of the better steels. John
 
Knives as tools do a broad variety of tasks, factors, like ease of sharpening, rigidity, flexibility, corrosion resistance etc. are important in knives depending on the work. Cost also a factor. A have a 60+ yo machete I was given as a teen - I think it cost $3 somewhere my folks visited in the Carribbean. After long use, ugly, still works as intended, sharpens with a few strokes of a file. Similar but different a Finnish Marttini (sp?) filet knife with similar tenure. Dad's Remington sheath knife that did his scouting and mine as well. Different tools, different steel.
 
Dagoth_Blur said:
I get what you're saying but I wouldn't say it's crazy in the scheme of markets in general. I think nearly every industry that makes any type of product or has a service generally has at least a few companies that have an equivalent of the butterfly tax. It's a good reminder that it's not just what you are physically receiving as a product but the entire message and reputation behind it. Whether it is warranted is a whole different story.

Even many services are like this. You can overpay for a very well-known lawyer accountant private detective etc. it doesn't always mean they are better it just means the market for the above reasons have decided people value it more beyond just simple XYZ calculable reasons.
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The price of everything, absent regulation or price fixing, is what buyers are willing to pay and what sellers are willing to take. The real question is why is the price so high compared to other knives. The one distinguishing thing about the Bugout is its unusually light weight at the expense of rigidity. Benchmade has far more sales outlets than anyone else in the business. I can pick one of these up any day at an REI and several other sporting goods chains. I think the typical customer is a backpacker who is obsessed with weight and not the serial knife buyers who dwell here. Despite many discussions of who makes a Bugout killer, I can't think of another knife that size which is under 2 Oz. There is no patented feature used to get there. It's just partial liners, thin blade stock, and FRN. If I was backpacking something more substantial would appeal to me, like a sturdy 4" fixed blade. Out in the wild it's bushcraft which counts.
 
440C is no slouch!!! And Buck 420HC is stellar at everything I need and I use my knives pretty hard.
S30V is about as far into new steels I care to get. I've tried all the new ones and prefer the ones I've listed for stainless.
 
Ron Texas said:
The price of everything, absent regulation or price fixing, is what buyers are willing to pay and what sellers are willing to take. The real question is why is the price so high compared to other knives. The one distinguishing thing about the Bugout is its unusually light weight at the expense of rigidity. Benchmade has far more sales outlets than anyone else in the business. I can pick one of these up any day at an REI and several other sporting goods chains. I think the typical customer is a backpacker who is obsessed with weight and not the serial knife buyers who dwell here. Despite many discussions of who makes a Bugout killer, I can't think of another knife that size which is under 2 Oz. There is no patented feature used to get there. It's just partial liners, thin blade stock, and FRN. If I was backpacking something more substantial would appeal to me, like a sturdy 4" fixed blade. Out in the wild it's bushcraft which counts.
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I think it's pretty straightforward as to why Benchmade can charge the butterfly tax. They have been around for a pretty long time in comparison to most other modern folding knife companies and been producing knives better than your average hardware store knife but not too expensive for the average person (at least in the past). The axis lock is ambidextrous and really easy to understand and quite strong. On top of that they like to project a strong police, military, and general blue collar type of vibe as a company which appeals to many people who buy knives. They have ingrained in people that buying Benchmade is being American, which in many ways is true. Oh yeah and they spend a good deal on marketing before most folding knife companies were even a thought in someone's mind.
 
A lot of normal people can't sharpen knives. They find it intimidating. They think a scratch on the blade is a bad thing. I think that is why they spend extra money to get something that has longer edge retention.

Personally, I would buy a utility knife with replaceable blades if I needed outstanding edge retention. For day to day pocket knife stuff, any steel will do and I love 420HC. It's tough and easy to sharpen.
 
D Dagoth_Blur I agree. That can be condensed to one word, marketing. The brand is so strong that it has become a Veblen good. That is something where price increases do not decrease demand. Spyderco is going down the same road. Even though anyone can use the axis lock now, that has not slowed Benchmade down one bit.
 
The point being how much will you pay for the newest and best? Is that much better than the steels we used in the 80s yes I'm old. I have a Gerber bolt action I bought in 84 first production run 420HC. It has cut thousands of boxes, cords, strapping, and some wire. Yet it is still sharp enough to shave with. Still one of my in the pocket carries.20260302_182251.jpg
 
The super steel is the one that gets used. They are all junk if all they do is sit in a safe…..
 
Why the cheaper steels? Because they are cheaper. End of story.
Can Knife folks tell one steel from another, we can definitely tell the difference. But I doubt that blindfolded test to identify steels buy cutting performance would be conclusive but it would be a bunch of fun. For example I have compared RWL-34 to CM154 and RWL cuts paper smoother even when not as sharp. Is that the extra Vanadium, I don't know. If you have both steels check it out. My Magnacut knives hold an edge much longer than many of my other knives, but feel a bit grittier cutting paper. Just my opinions.
 
Jack Sides said:
The point being how much will you pay for the newest and best? Is that much better than the steels we used in the 80s yes I'm old. I have a Gerber bolt action I bought in 84 first production run 420HC. It has cut thousands of boxes, cords, strapping, and some wire. Yet it is still sharp enough to shave with. Still one of my in the pocket carries.View attachment 3121825
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Have you ever sharpened it? Impressive if you didnt.
 
It gets used it gets sharpened. I have 3 stone I have been using for the past 65 years. My dad taught me to sharpen a knife when I was 8 I still do it that way today. 90 percent of my collection will never be used. I have over 30 Case knives I carry one the copperlock. It all gets down to the size of your wallet.
 
It all depends on how one defines inferior. I like D2 for my work knife, It is just an old school tool steel, nothing fancy, and nobody here would call it a premium steel. But the low cost make it good for a hard working rough cutting warehouse tool, and large carbides with it's micro serrations help it cut a dumpster full of cardboard every week without need to dress the edge. For my usages it does as much or more work for a lot less money than the same thing with one of the new super steels. A rusty old truck may be inferior to a Ferrari until you need to haul something.
 
Ron Texas said:
D Dagoth_Blur I agree. That can be condensed to one word, marketing. The brand is so strong that it has become a Veblen good. That is something where price increases do not decrease demand. Spyderco is going down the same road. Even though anyone can use the axis lock now, that has not slowed Benchmade down one bit.
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100%. The big difference with Spyderco in my view however is they are still at the literal cutting edge of knife steels. They have more options in regard to steel type than anyone else and do more high-performance stuff than anyone else. Also I don't disagree with their price getting a bit crazy however they still have quite a few models in their line that are an absolute amazing deal. For instance the stretch too is probably one of if not my favorite knife design and you can get one in k390 for a very reasonable price. Same with pretty much the entire manix series.
 
Jack Sides said:
The point being how much will you pay for the newest and best? Is that much better than the steels we used in the 80s yes I'm old. I have a Gerber bolt action I bought in 84 first production run 420HC. It has cut thousands of boxes, cords, strapping, and some wire. Yet it is still sharp enough to shave with. Still one of my in the pocket carries.View attachment 3121825
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I have one of these knives. Where the writing is about Bolt action is a cut out about 1/2 inch long and 1/8 inch wide, so you can thumb the blade open. it is a prototype for a Jumpmaster knife that Gerber was working on. John
 
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