Why is it okay to clone a traditional, but not clone a modern knife?

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herisson said:
There, you went from irritating to disgusting. Have you no idea what (as a knife lover) you owe to people like Tony Bose, A.G. Russell, Randall, Loveless, Dozier... Your merchandizing approach is revolting. And you summoning the future generations to comfort your pisspoor position is even worse.
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I'm the one trying to get people to give credit to long dead knife makers and pioneering companies who you all think it's okay to steal their designs without giving them express credit. You guys are the filthy clone supporters here not me lol.
 
Londinium Armoury said:
Lol yes that's why it isn't a sound argument for us to steal the designs and completely clone dead designers. I did mention before though that the only part that holds true is if that item is no longe rin production and if that specific company that first designed it has closed down.
That's why I mentioned that most of the companies that get cloned are actually still around, and somebody pointed out that if case came out with a design first, then rough rider copied them, and then case discontinued that pattern, now anybody who wants to buy that pattern is forced to go to the cloner, rough rider. So rough rider will now get all of the custom for that case model that they no longer make or sell.
Also earlier was mentioned giving credit tot he original designer, I don't think anybody does that, if you cloone a traditional design, you should probably say in your description "We took this design from so and so, and ar epaying homage to that makers design" Instead of just saying "here's our knife, we made this come buy it"
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Those traditional designs are not "stolen". Case etc. have never claimed to have invented those patterns. In 200 years it might be perfectly acceptable to manufacture an "old timey" Manix.
 
danbot said:
Those traditional designs are not "stolen". Case etc. have never claimed to have invented those patterns. In 200 years it might be perfectly acceptable to manufacture an "old timey" Manix.
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I know I used Case because it was an example made earlier with Queen cutlery in a previous page. Insert a Sheffield or German maker in place of Case. I honestly think that will actually happen in the future, when a lot of the modern knife companies are gone or have sold their business and all fo the original models are mostly gone. Some future knife nerds will go through the internet archives, find the most popular knives from 200+ years ago and they will start making "replicas"
Then you will have a wise old knife sage who has personally handled the last surviving sebenza 21. He will say "These replica Sebenzas are garbage, they are nothing like the tolerances of the real thing, nobody can make a real Sebenza anymore, we lost the ancient knowlege"
 
Londinium Armoury said:
I'm the one trying to get people to give credit to long dead knife makers and pioneering companies who you all think it's okay to steal their designs without giving them express credit. You guys are the filthy clone supporters here not me lol.
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A 180° turn, right ? From slithering advocating thiefs to righteous supporting the original creators... You're a one slimy slug. I don't buy it.
 
herisson said:
A 180° turn, right ? From slithering advocating thiefs to righteous supporting the original creators... You're a one slimy slug. I don't buy it.
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I think you never understood my real stance on the subject, possibly took a joke I said as serious, or have missunderstood my points. I have tried to make it very clear in between my jesting, if you go back and read through the thread carefully, you will see I have on numerous occasions stated I do not support clones, counterfeirts or stealing desings. I have been arguing points from both sides, because I am capable of maintaining a detached position without being emotionally invested.
Just because I make a post questioning something that does not mean I hold that belief.
I have made it very clear I do not own any clones, or support buying them.
 
Have y’all thought about this is a supplier problem, if Crucible Steel Corporation of America didn’t sell and temper the clone
Blades, and the other companies making washers, thumb stud
Ect, ect , then a 100% clone wouldn’t exist, ganzo may “ barrow “ designs from companies, but I can’t find any steel that is equivalent to original in origin or quality
You pull out a benchmade 940 and it’s very different than a ganzo F756 in weight and scale , try to pass a ganzo off as a BM and get laughed at, pull out a clone CRK and zero difference in quality and finish, only difference is $400

I own 4 different trapper style knives, only two have case xxx on them
One is a foreign made hen & roster and one Remington
 
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Arguing points from both sides when one side is obviously total shit doesn't look good, in my book. I am not detached.
 
S-3 ranch said:
Have y’all thought about this is a supplier problem, if Crucible Steel Corporation of America didn’t sell and temper the clone
Blades, and the other companies making washers, thumb stud
Ect, ect , then a 100% clone wouldn’t exist, ganzo may “ barrow “ designs from companies, but I can’t find any steel that is equivalent to original in origin or quality
You pull out a benchmade 940 and it’s very different than a ganzo F756 in weight and scale , try to pass a ganzo off as a BM and get laughed at, pull out a clone CRK and zero difference in quality and finish, only difference is $400
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The Sebenza clone might look the same, but I don't believe for a second the tolerances of the pivot bushing washers and surface grinding of the titanium is anywher near as tight on the clone. I've never handled a clone but I bet I can feel which one is real and which one is fake with my eyes closed.
 
K.O.D. said:
Uh oh we got a philosophizer in the house.
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Philosopher quotes can be twisted in about whatever way you would like them to mean. According to your agenda. Sucks for that Aristoteles guy. He was brilliant.
 
herisson said:
Arguing points from both sides when one side is obviously total shit doesn't look good, in my book. I am not detached.
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Well I'm a very introverted person, I don't really get emotionally involved with things like this, or even more serious things for that matter, I have very low levels of empathy and am quite an apathetic person naturally. I think there's contradictions in this subject, and I think the way to solve them for me to feel logically right in my stance is paying actual homage and not hiding sources.
Obviously I don't think the answer is to go in the other direction and start cloning every knife makers designs. I personally talk to lots of knife makers myself. I've exchanged words with some of the best knife makers alive today. I have been inspired by most of them to start making knives myself.
I also think to the future, and I think about things long term, that's why I'm remiding everybody that what we are doing right now, is copying dead makers designs, and we aren't even giving them their due credit. That will happen in the future and I don't like the thought of that.
Yeah I jokingly say (but i think it will actually happen even if im joking about it) people will clone the manix 2 and everyone will say it's fair game, in 200 years. That's not the worst part though, they will clone it and won't even give spyderco the credit for making it. They will just give it a pattern name, and sell it as their own creation.
 
Londinium Armoury said:
The Sebenza clone might look the same, but I don't believe for a second the tolerances of the pivot bushing washers and surface grinding of the titanium is anywher near as tight on the clone. I've never handled a clone but I bet I can feel which one is real and which one is fake with my eyes closed.
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I can’t post pictures on this sight but have multiple different side by side inspection photos and discussion from other forums
 
Londinium Armoury said:
Well I'm a very introverted person, I don't really get emotionally involved with things like this, or even more serious things for that matter, I have very low levels of empathy and am quite an apathetic person naturally. I think there's contradictions in this subject, and I think the way to solve them for me to feel logically right in my stance is paying actual homage and not hiding sources.
Obviously I don't think the answer is to go in the other direction and start cloning every knife makers designs. I personally talk to lots of knife makers myself. I've exchanged words with some of the best knife makers alive today. I have been inspired by most of them to start making knives myself.
I also think to the future, and I think about things long term, that's why I'm remiding everybody that what we are doing right now, is copying dead makers designs, and we aren't even giving them their due credit. That will happen in the future and I don't like the thought of that.
Yeah I jokingly say (but i think it will actually happen even if im joking about it) people will clone the manix 2 and everyone will say it's fair game, in 200 years. That's not the worst part though, they will clone it and won't even give spyderco the credit for making it. They will just give it a pattern name, and sell it as their own creation.
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You're just over thinking it. Sometimes the answer is as simple as clear water.
 
herisson said:
Philosopher quotes can be twisted in about whatever way you would like them to mean. According to your agenda. Sucks for that Aristoteles guy. He was brilliant.
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His name was Aristotle, not Aristotles, it sounds like you are trying to meld Aristotle and Socrates into a single entity. but then again, some people do believe Socrates was an invention of Plato, and Plato was the teacher of Aristotle. So maybe you are onto something.

Also K.O.D yes I studied western philosophy.
 
Londinium Armoury said:
Also earlier was mentioned giving credit tot he original designer, I don't think anybody does that, if you cloone a traditional design, you should probably say in your description "We took this design from so and so, and ar epaying homage to that makers design" Instead of just saying "here's our knife, we made this come buy it"
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The fact that current producers of traditional knives call these knives by their traditional pattern names: "Barlow" "Trapper" "Stockman" "Congress", etc. is an acknowledgement that these are old and established designs.

If, hundreds of years from now, the names of original designers of our modern knives are lost in the mists of time, then I suppose the same sort of pattern copying and reproduction will be acceptable.

Some people don't care, but since we are discussing this on a knife aficionado website, don't be surprised if a lot of folks see a big difference between a historically traditional reproduction, and a blatant clone/copy of a contemporary cutler's work.
 
madcap_magician said:
1. It's not a problem to make versions of traditional knives. The inventor, if there ever was one, is generally dead and in no position to benefit from his or her design. If a patent had been issued (and most weren't), it would be long expired.
2. It's not a problem to use generally accepted features even when they're traceable to a specific person. Liner lock. Frame lock. Thumb stud.
3. It's not a problem to specifically copy the exact style or pattern of another maker if that maker has given permission to you or general permission to anyone. Bob Loveless didn't mind when other people made knives to his patterns, and he was quite free with giving out his actual patterns. A person of integrity would note when describing their knife that it was the pattern of another maker so credit is given where it's due.
4. It's definitely a problem to copy the specific style or pattern of another maker if they have not given you permission to do so and they are still making said knives, because you are now detracting from their reputation and business by making knives that look exactly like theirs.

Example: I like the Perrin La Griffe a lot. But Fred doesn't make them in a steel I want. Ernie Emerson has a licensed production version, but he also doesn't make it the way I want. I would not be justified in going to another maker and asking him to copy the design without Fred giving the OK.
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madcap_magician said:
You don't seem to be getting the fact that whether someone is alive or dead does in fact make a difference. When someone is dead, he no longer benefits from his work. If you are copying and selling knives of the exact design of a living and working knifemaker without his or her permission, you are stealing his designs and taking business away from him. You are profiting from someone else's labor without any recompense..
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So anything Les de Asis created is fair game because he's dead and can't gain from it, right?

Londinium Armoury said:
Look guys if you are feeling like you are getting annoyed or bothered by this discussion it's probably best if you just go take part in another thread. I also want to remind people of what my own buying position is when it comes to clones and counterfeits. I am not on the side of supporting clones, but I am capable of playing devils advocate for the sake of debate and discussion.
Just because somebody is making arguments for or against something doesn't mean they hold that opinion or belief.
I don't own any Ganzo knives, I've never even handled one, I support original designs, it is possible I am just as much as a hypocrite and have double standards. Maybe I am confronting my own double standards by even making this thread.
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If you were looking for a case study on the psychology of niche groups, then you've done a great job. If you came here expecting logic and reason, I've got bad news for you...

ferider said:
Actually, it's not.

Not a lawyer, but had to take respective classes and have to apply them to software, among others.

There is 3 IP protection mechanisms:

from https://www.stopfakes.gov/:
  1. A U.S. utility patent, ... is generally granted for 20 years from the date the patent application is filed; however, periodic fees are required to maintain the enforceability of the patent. ...
  2. A U.S. trademark generally lasts as long as the trademark is used in commerce and defended against infringement.
  3. Copyright protection is for a limited term. For works created after January 1, 1978, copyrights last for 70 years after the death of the author. ...
For example, Spyderco/Sal patented the Spydie-hole, and after expiration of the patent has trademarked it. A patent is protecting a device in the "loosest" way, a mechanism with one or more implementations (like the Spydie-hole, a knife lock, pocket clip, etc.) will be protected from being copied conceptually.

Copyright protects designs/text/art/etc. from being copied more or less verbatim, and these copies being used commercially. For example, you can go to the library, photocopy a page of a book, and legally use it for your own purpose. But you can not publish the copy and make money. In other words, a knife design that is slightly different than another one, is not a copyright violation.

Roland.
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It's becoming more and more explicit that this is not viewed as a legal issue (since legal protections are relatively limited for knife design) but as a moral one.
 
herisson said:
You're just over thinking it. Sometimes the answer is as simple as clear water.
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That's very possible, I probably am over thinking it. Still makes an interesting topic though, I've been looking at antique knives all day today, trying to figure out which ones to purchase next week. I've been thinking about traditional knives all day long, doing some research on their desings and origins as well.
 
Shucks, he may be irritated by how you spelled his name. You sure he would be thrilled by "Aristotle" ? You trying to suggest I'm confounding Aristote and Socrates is actually cute. Aren't you drifting a bit on the arrogant side ? Drop it with Plato, just forget it. It's a load of crap.
 
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