Why is lock failure even a topic?

[Bigfattyt]

Wow! This makes a lot of sense to me. I think you have altered my opinion.


Get a small fixed blade dude! Maybe a neck knife would be best for easy access while working on such things.

I am a knife nut. I have 3 custom fixed blades on me right now, and three GEC slipjoints.....

Two Ben Tendic CPM3V Kwaiken, a J. Todd neck knife in AEBL, and 2 guns.

I've been EDC'ing knives for 34 years. I bought my first custom fixed blade when I was 12 years old.

I've EDC'd custom folders worth $2200, and used them to castrate cows in the mud and blood...

I've spent time edc'ing Busse, and Hinderer, Sebenza, and a handful of custom maker's fixed blades, and have made a few my self.

I still buy and carry inexpensive folders from Cold Steel, and Spyderco, and Buck, and Vic SAK, and Opinel, etc...usually at the same time as a few nicer GEC, and rotation of custom fixed blades.

I'm pretty well sorted, but still enjoy looking and buying sharp things.

I don't work with my hands any more.... I work in a suit. Except when I'm at home, or goofing of .

 

[eugenechia1989]

Personally, I have spine-whacked a folder by accident and thankfully the lock did not fail. The knife was a Spyderco Tenacious.

My primary EDC now is a Cold Steel with the Tri-ad lock, though I have done some spine-whacking with my other knives and I don't have any failures to report.

My Benchmade fell onto a hard marble floor from chest height onto its spine and the lock didn't fail.

I think it's only fair that a locking mechanism should be able to withstand a spine-whack at least to some degree.

As for SAKs... my first knife was an SAK, pretty much grew up with it, and I've used it quite hard. But I was always aware that it's a slipjoint and thus I've carried over that cautiousness with my locking folders and even my fixed-blades.

 

[danbot]

I am a knife nut. I have 3 custom fixed blades on me right now, and three GEC slipjoints.....

Two Ben Tendic CPM3V Kwaiken, a J. Todd neck knife in AEBL, and 2 guns.

I've been EDC'ing knives for 34 years. I bought my first custom fixed blade when I was 12 years old.

I've EDC'd custom folders worth $2200, and used them to castrate cows in the mud and blood...

I've spent time edc'ing Busse, and Hinderer, Sebenza, and a handful of custom maker's fixed blades, and have made a few my self.

I still buy and carry inexpensive folders from Cold Steel, and Spyderco, and Buck, and Vic SAK, and Opinel, etc...usually at the same time as a few nicer GEC, and rotation of custom fixed blades.

I'm pretty well sorted, but still enjoy looking and buying sharp things.

I don't work with my hands any more.... I work in a suit.

A man after my own heart!
My story is much the same, but I still work with my hands.

 

[DocJD]

I am a knife nut. I have 3 custom fixed blades on me right now, and three GEC slipjoints.....

Two Ben Tendic CPM3V Kwaiken, a J. Todd neck knife in AEBL, and 2 guns.

I've been EDC'ing knives for 34 years. I bought my first custom fixed blade when I was 12 years old.

I've EDC'd custom folders worth $2200, and used them to castrate cows in the mud and blood...

I've spent time edc'ing Busse, and Hinderer, Sebenza, and a handful of custom maker's fixed blades, and have made a few my self.

I still buy and carry inexpensive folders from Cold Steel, and Spyderco, and Buck, and Vic SAK, and Opinel, etc...usually at the same time as a few nicer GEC, and rotation of custom fixed blades.

I'm pretty well sorted, but still enjoy looking and buying sharp things.

I don't work with my hands any more.... I work in a suit.

I love that there is someone even more extreme than me !

 

[Korean Hog]

The first locking pocket knives I had as a kid were freaking garbage and the lock failed both ways on a few
Seriously these things from the gift shop would break the "stop pin" and fold over or the lock would just fail.
Since then I've always supported the spine and been careful not to push it towards the closed position while cutting, but since then I've always been intrigued with higher quality knives with stronger locks
I was like dude there's gotta be a better way and discovered Kershaw.

Lock failure is a topic because its one of the main reasons I got in to knives at the geek/ nut level in the first place!

I'm with you though, there comes a point where if it's not cheap garbage the lock should be fine for work and hitting it with a hammer is a dumb test and most locking folders $50-$70 and up shouldn't be anything to worry about if you use it for a knife and not a pry bar. Hate to hear horror stories of lock failure and it seems like its liner locks a lot, I say the stronger the better, but keep your fingers clear and don't push on the spine just in case.

 

[Bigfattyt]

most locking folders $50-$70 and up shouldn't be anything to worry about if you use it for a knife and not a pry bar. Hate to hear horror stories of lock failure and it seems like its liner locks a lot, I say the stronger the better, but keep your fingers clear and don't push on the spine just in case.

Frame locks are very susceptible to easy failure, even expensive ones. Especially if they have very early lock up, and non hardened lock faces. Even in high end pieces.

I've never had one go prying, or hitting it with a hammer because I've never done that with a pocket knife. I have seen people abuse folders with extremely strong locks. Like Cold steel's version of the axis lock, and also the Triad lock I've seen someone cut and pry open several car doors with on both types of locks, hammer on them, extreem spine impacts, pull ups, etc.

 

[Korean Hog]

Frame locks are very susceptible to easy failure, even expensive ones. Especially if they have very early lock up, and non hardened lock faces. Even in high end pieces.

I've never had one go prying, or hitting it with a hammer because I've never done that with a pocket knife. I have seen people abuse folders with extremely strong locks. Like Cold steel's version of the axis lock, and also the Triad lock I've seen someone cut and pry open several car doors with on both types of locks, hammer on them, extreem spine impacts, pull ups, etc.

Yeah lately when I'm browsing knives I tend towards axis, comp. And back lock.
Never had a liner or frame lock fail on me, but I'd hate to be another rare instance.

 

[Lance Leon]

If a knife has a lock, then it'd better not fail. If the argument is that a lock failing isn't an issue, then why even bother with a locking knife? Why not make it a slip joint or friction folder?
Another thing is that I look at locks as a sign of quality. If a knife has lock slip, lock rock, a lock that's difficult to engage/disengage (lock stick, or using extreme lock bar tension to compensate for bad geometry or other issues), then it's a poorly designed and/or built knife. If you can't get the lock right, then you probably messed up a bunch of other things on the knife.

I don't expect a folding knife to become a fixed blade when it's locked, but I do expect it to withstand a moderate amount of force from my hand when I test for lock slip and I do expect it to not fail when I'm cutting, even if it's a twisting motion. That goes doubly so when my tasks are light use and the knife is expensive.

 

[James Y]

As far as frame locks go, several years ago at a store, I tried several examples of the China-made Kershaw Vapor frame lock, and each one slipped closed with minimal pressure to the spine; almost less than it takes to close an SAK. At least a slipjoint like a SAK has spring tension to hold it open, and I’ve never had a problem using my SAKs without injury. Needless to say, I did not purchase a Vapor.

I have a Kershaw Leek whose frame lock barely engages, feels weak, and although it has never slipped off, it doesn’t exactly inspire confidence, except as a light-use folder.

None of my CRKs (I own 5) have any lock slip at all. They are rock solid. As far as wear goes, even on the ones I’ve used a lot, the locks seem to remain at the same lockup point.

I own some late ‘90s/early 2K Emersons whose liner locks developed some lock slip (but not completely off the blade tang) with so-so pressure. The liner lock/blade tang mating surfaces are clearly ground at too steep an angle, causing early wear and making it easier to develop lock slip. I don’t know if Emerson Knives has upgraded their liner locks and locking surfaces since then or not.

Jim

 

[CarpentryHero]

I wouldn't be able to resist twisting that swingy thing back and forth until it snapped off and then put it in my pocket. Gosh that looks awful.

It’s a knife and a flashlight, like my two favourite things. They could have done a little better steel and a different optic for the led

 

[Korean Hog]

As far as frame locks go, several years ago at a store, I tried several examples of the China-made Kershaw Vapor frame lock, and each one slipped closed with minimal pressure to the spine; almost less than it takes to close an SAK. At least a slipjoint like a SAK has spring tension to hold it open, and I’ve never had a problem using my SAKs without injury. Needless to say, I did not purchase a Vapor.

I have a Kershaw Leek whose frame lock barely engages, feels weak, and although it has never slipped off, it doesn’t exactly inspire confidence, except as a light-use folder.

None of my CRKs (I own 5) have any lock slip at all. They are rock solid. As far as wear goes, even on the ones I’ve used a lot, the locks seem to remain at the same lockup point.

I own some late ‘90s/early 2K Emersons whose liner locks developed some lock slip (but not completely off the blade tang) with so-so pressure. The liner lock/blade tang mating surfaces are clearly ground at too steep an angle, causing early wear and making it easier to develop lock slip. I don’t know if Emerson Knives has upgraded their liner locks and locking surfaces since then or not.

Jim

Judging by the CQC 7 I just bought I'm gonna say no. I love the knife but the lock sticks really bad, liner goes to the opposing scale if opened hard, blade had lock rock.
I screwed with the lock bar and the rock went away. Locks up 60% and seems solid, but the fact that the lock ever had rock and locks up at so many different places on the interface had my confidence gone.

Dumb test but I spine whacked the shit out of it because I had to be sure after feeling that lock rock. Never whack my Spyders but they never had lock rock.
It locks, if I'm not completely stupid with it,
it won't fold my fingers off.
I'll still carry the knife for beating on which is the intended use anyway.

I'm going back to CRK and Spyderco for now till my SOGs get here. I'm on a knives made in Seki Japan kick right now and my guilty pleasure of "tactical" folders hence two Emersons and a SOG this Summer.

 

[91bravo]

If you use a knife like a knife should be used, your lock shouldn't fail. I grew up using Case Trappers and Stockmans, so as a kid, I learned to safely use knives without locks on them. Nowadays, a lock is just an added feature, not a necessity for me. I have plenty of fixed blades for fixed blade tasks.

 

[sgt1372]

Interesting that there's already 4 pages of msgs on this topic, which doesn't seem all that "controversial" to me.

My POV (which tends to be in the minority, regardless of what the topic is) is, if you plan to use a knife for a specific purpose when the lock strength of the folder is important, don't use it and go find a suitable fixed blade knife to use instead.

If that's not an option, then just be careful doing whatever it is you plan to do w/the knife and be prepared for the lock to fail because, if you think it "might" fail, you already know that the task you are going to be using the folder for is likely to test the limits of the strength of the blade lock.

And, if you already know that the lock "might" fail because it was damaged or not designed properly in the 1st place, you shouldn't be using the knife anyway.

I know that it is a novel concept but I believe that anyone using a "tool," which may cause injury to the user, should take personal responsibility for it's use.

It's NOT the job of the mfg to anticipate every possible use of the folder to safeguard the user from lock failure, particularly if the user is using it beyond the design capacities of the knife which should be readily apparent to the user. If you get cut w/a knife because of lock failure, it is because of YOUR ignorance or negligence and is NOT necessarily the fault of the mfg.

For example, one day, I stupidly started flipping a balisong using the WRONG leg of the bali and, of course, I cut a finger BADLY when the back edge of the knife hit my hand. Who's fault is that? Is it a design flaw or my fault because I didn't take due care in the use of the knife properly?

It was obviously the latter. The same applies to anyone who "breaks" the lock of the folder by subjecting to it to forces greater than allowed by the design of the knife.

BTW, the reason why most bali makers only use singled edged blades is to "protect" the user from cutting himself but stupid is as stupid does.

 

[spyderg]

Unfortunately a fixed blade is not always an option.

Also, working slow and steady ensuring careful cuts etc is not always feasible. I’ve worked jobs and been on sites where you have no choice but to work quickly for various reasons. That included drawing, using and putting away my knife in a hurry. I needed to be able to count on everything about that knife to be working perfectly, from the clip keeping it in the right spot to the action being reliable and predictable to the lock itself holding against moderate impact and not slipping when pulling out of dense materials. On top of that I needed a blade I could count on to not snap, and stay sharp throughout the day. The handle had to work well wet or in a gloved or bare hand. I could go on but the point is, some folks need to rely on their knives to do what they are supposed to do.

Nowadays I’m not working in those situations anymore but it’s still part of how I look at a knife.

 

[NWPilgrim]

I once had a jack knife close on a finger. Not from stabbing but trying to push the point into some wood. That made me a believer in locking folders, initially the Buck 110. I still use slip joints such as the SAK, but not for any point pressure.

I too wonder at the “lock strength” testing. Nothing I do with a knife is going to stress the lock by more than a few pounds, certainly not 50-300 lbs.!

I choose locking mechanism by whether it puts my fingers in the path of a closing blade, is it ambidextrous, is it possible to unlock by various grips/trusting/leveraging motions, and how easy it is to operate one handed. Generally I prefer the mid-back lock or Axis or similar. But I will go with Compression, liner/frame, or long back long for the right knife or situation.

 

[DocJD]

It seems to me that some members here don't really much understand what happens under extreme stress and the effects of adrenaline .

This can occur due to some actual emergency or simply from any great emotional strain , etc.

Using a knife or trying to do any fine motor function is very difficult . Gross muscular strength is enhanced but fine control is sacrificed .

Relaxed , critical thinking is replaced by instinctive immediate action . There is no possibility of "being careful" .

If you've never been there , try not to assume you know how it can be .

 

[Fanglekai]

Why wouldn't it be a topic? Everything including handle material, texture, color, blade steel, wear resistance, clip placement and shape, and anything else people think to talk about is a topic here. A lock has a functional purpose. It makes more sense to talk about locks than many other features.

 

[DocT]

Most people today do not actually work hard with their knives. But talk to a ranchhand or someone like that that actually uses their knives hard. Lock strength is a vital concern to them. I’ve seen many people get badly injured because a lock failed. That’s one reason that we would not allow liner locks Or frame locks. They were too easily defeated and all of the lock test repeatedly show this and yet people live in denial about it.

These tests are not silly. And discussions about like Lock strength are important. These test show design flaws and shotty work Manship. This is a real concern for many people.

 

[not2sharp]

….
I have a Kershaw Leek whose frame lock barely engages, feels weak, and although it has never slipped off, it doesn’t exactly inspire confidence, except as a light-use folder....

Jim

IMHO, all folders should be considered "light-use". For real work, you should be using a dedicated knife. That is not to say that the folding knife is anything but a very useful tool. Folders are configured for convenience; it is there to help you break down a box when needed; but, if you need to deal with a warehouse load of boxes, you would be far better off with a dedicated box cutter. The hype over tactical folders has left many with a dangerous impression of these tools. They are not there to meet every need, they are designed to help you to get it done when the right tool is otherwise unavailable.

n2s

 

[Makael]

If you use a knife like a knife should be used, your lock shouldn't fail. I grew up using Case Trappers and Stockmans, so as a kid, I learned to safely use knives without locks on them. Nowadays, a lock is just an added feature, not a necessity for me. I have plenty of fixed blades for fixed blade tasks.

Agreed.