Why Is N690 Fine For 1000$+ Customs, When VG-10 Isn't Good Enough For 200$ Spydercos?

asdf12345 said:
Plenty of custom makers use the latest and greatest blade materials. Mayo uses Stellite for many of his blades. Strider uses S110-V, S90-V etc. Marfione and Rexford commonly use Elmax. RJ Martin has plenty of blades in 204-P. If you want a high dollar custom with an advanced supersteel, there are many options to choose from.

I agree that customs could in general could move past CPM 154 and ATS 34 though especially considering the price of some of these knives. I would not want the options of 154 and ATS 34 (and other comparable steels like N690) to dry up completely, however, as some prefer them.

As far as Todd Begg's and Curtiss' knives in particular go.. I feel that they are midtechs as they are CNC made and with machine ground blades, and could stand to have a steel upgrade because of it. If I'm not paying for the extensive hand work it takes to cut and shape by hand in the first place, I might as well get a knife that offers a superior or at least comparable blade steel to production knives costing three or four times less.
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Thanks for the suggestions; I've seen some of those Mayo Stellite 6K's, and I want one... Stellite is incredible, strange stuff, not actually steel, and not actually new; I think it dates back to WWI, or a bit before. I don't want to come off like I think custom makers are all using cheap steel. I don't even think N690 is cheap steel. I did mention before some of the makers I like that use really high end choices, like Gavko and Hoback and Direware, etc... there's a lot of makers who do pay attention to trends and developments in steel.

I really like Begg's knives, but as you mentioned, they seem more midtech, for the most part. The field grade Bodega's are obviously midtechs. But the Bodega 2.0, if it's a midtech, it's a very nice one. As you said, though, if it's all CNC machined, for 1200$ -- give it a steel upgrade. Why not? Same with the field grades -- they look pretty bland for the money, and they have tumbled, acid-etched blades -- time for a better pay 'grade', or maybe a 'field commission'... CTS-204P? Sure.
 
Blues Bender said:
Nobody is cutting corners with N690, it performs just fine. You're acting like it's cheap Chinese steel...

It depends on the knife, some knives are meant to be enjoyed as art and aren't "performance driven slicers". My customs in N690 haven't crumbled into dust from cutting cardboard. It's comparable to steels like 154cm and such.

Some steels that are "super", are also meant to be super hard, which equals more time spent polishing for the maker. A softer driven steel that still performs great allows the maker to offer good cutting performance, but also allows for more embellishments like mirror polishes or beautiful hand-rubbed satin finishes in a reasonable amount of time. High carbide steels take longer to work, and time is money; do the math...

Look at Rockstead, you're spending $1,000 plus mostly for the mirror polish and the very excellent heat treat.
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I have no ideas about N690, first hand. I'm tending to look at it more positively, now, after reading your posts and strategy9's posts, as well as others. I've just been curious about it. My reference to 'Chinese steel' wasn't anything to do with N690. It was actually a response to your statement: 'A good heat treat will go further than the letters and numbers printed on your blade'. I simply meant to suggest that if heat treats were ALL that mattered, we'd all use 8Cr13MoV. I was exaggerating. I realize that's not what you were implying, obviously.

As far as the rest of your comments: well said. I agree completely. I also expressed the same points earlier in my other posts, but without your concision. I think the craftsmanship is the key, 'super-steels' are difficult to work with, and cost more in man-hours, not just dollars, and low-vanadium steels like CPM 154 are still good options. And good call on the Rocksteads, because no one comes close to working ZDP-189 like they do... I really want the Sinkevich Rockstead coming out.
 
daizee said:
The different in steel prices is well illustrated in the table above, but for big pieces like that, remember that the cost per blade is amortized across several pieces. The marginal increase for each blade is not that high. However, for makers who outsource their heat treating to reliable experts like Peter's, it is not cost effective to make ones and twos of each type of steel because you minimize your heat-treat costs by sending large batches of a single type.

As a relatively low-end custom maker, I've decided that CPM-154 will be my 'everyday' stainless, but you'll see me posting pictures of 154CM blades for quite awhile as I work through my existing inventory. So there many be other practical factors like that in play.
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Yes, exactly, the big numbers aren't as bad as they look when you realize how many knives a maker can get from a 4" wide, 36" long piece -- maybe 18 folders, if they're 4" long including the tang. So even if it's s110v, that's less then 30$ a knife, for raw materials. But the extra man hours in working it have to be factored in as well. All very illuminating. But 30$ is more than most of your Walmart knives go for, so it's not cheap.

CPM 154 is another steel I haven't tried, but I have a fairly good 'second-hand opinion' of it... whatever that means.
 
wesmanthetiger said:
I have a VG10 Spyderco Endura and an older Benchmade red in N690. I do not hard use or abuse my knives, but I like to know that I could if need be. Out of all the different steels I have had in knives the only one that has chipped along the edge is the Benchmade N690. Now maybe it was the grind or just the right angle, but I was cutting cardboard, and no it didn't have staples or metal in it. I still love the knife, but if I am going to pay a premium for a high end knife it better have a high end particle steel, S30V, etc. I'm not a steel snob, but if Chris Reeve sold a Sebenza in 420hc for over $500 would you pay that for it?
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Weird. I thought the softer cobalt would make it less likely to chip, but it's a complicated thing, reality. It seems as though production knives with N690 may have been improperly treated. I know the new Spyderco Pitts folder uses N690. I'll have to see if this is a common thing. If it happened with custom folders, makers would probably quit using it, rather than having pissed off customers and endless warranty work.

And no, I'd probably pass on the exclusive 420 HC Ltd. Ed. Sebenza... I don't even think it's a bad steel, I just associate it with Buck Knives... bad associations of the mental kind.
 
Sikael said:
Weird. I thought the softer cobalt would make it less likely to chip, but it's a complicated thing, reality. It seems as though production knives with N690 may have been improperly treated. I know the new Spyderco Pitts folder uses N690. I'll have to see if this is a common thing. If it happened with custom folders, makers would probably quit using it, rather than having pissed off customers and endless warranty work.

And no, I'd probably pass on the exclusive 420 HC Ltd. Ed. Sebenza... I don't even think it's a bad steel, I just associate it with Buck Knives... bad associations of the mental kind.
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See that's exactly it! I love Buck knives, but if buck makes a specialty knife for well over $200 they usually use a higher end steel. Now with my benchmade keep in mind that this was a budget made knife before they licensed H&K so yeah the heat treat probably wasn't epic.
 
When looking at the prices of the steels and how a sheet of premium steel is around $400. That proves that the knife isn't driven by metal prices. If you're paying $1000+ the steel cost of the knife is around $25-$50 depending on size of the blade. So cost of steel is a mute point. Time is money and labor (depending of how busy/backed up the maker is) is the most expensive part. If a maker has a year waiting list he could double the price and everyone would still pay it. Or his wait list might drop to 9 months with people backing out.
 
Ive had many spydercos in vg10 and I have 2 Thorburns in n690 and a field geade bodega. From my use n690 performed better than vg10. Not a huge difference and its no m390 or s110v but it is better. Part of it is better geometry, the thinnest vg10 spyderco I had was my centofante 3cat around .022 or so. My bodega is at .018 and Andres are at .015 and .012 so the cutting ability is much better which increases how long a knive will cut. Hell, I had a boker solo that was fully customized by a maker and most of the blade was around. 010 and tip was around .006! Even when dull, that tip could still cut cardboard. Am I upset thst my $600 to $800 knives have n690? No, its a really good steel thats easy to sharpen, takes a very keen edge and can handle low angles, holds that edge pretty good and doesn't rust. Do I prefer m390, yes thats why im having my next L51 made in m390 but it adds cost and it will add sharpening time. As a steel junkee I was "bummed" at first when I got my A2 and it was n690 but after I used it fir a while, I was pleasantly surprised. Its a good mid range steel and with a good heat treat which Andre knows how to do, it performs great. Would I bitch if it was vg10 on it? If it was ran 60 plus hrc and had a nice and thin geometry, no I would not. In Andres knivss, I pay fir his incredible action, top level (im talking Southard, GTC, Rexford) fit and finish and great performance, ive had 4 Thorburns and 2 Van Heerden and all were at .015 or less. Bodega I bought because I love that bkade shape, mine is the original bodega shape with fuller and holes plus the design. But wgen I got it in hand, I could feel the hours of work in it. Everythjng was rounded, comfortable to hold, great flipping action where you just break the detent and blade flies out. Push in the lickbar and blade swings freely and silent yet it feels like a fixed blade in hand, with all my might I could not budge a slightest wiggle. Thats why I bought those knives and not because of the steel choice.
 
When you pay $1k+ for a custom, you aren't paying for materials. You're paying for bragging rights.
 
I think basically what this boils down to is that, a custom knife is inherently special, whereas a production knife has to rely on variables in material to give it any sense of that same attribute. The only reason they bother with ultra tough super steels is because it imparts a measure of exclusivity that the market responds to. Custom knife makers don't have to bother with that gimmick so they tend to use good steels like n690/vg10 that are easier to work with.

Personally, when it comes to a production knife, if there are two identical models in vg10 and Elmax I'm not going to pay extra for the Elmax. Just takes longer to sharpen. I still think CRK and CPM hit the nail on the head with S35VN. Best of both worlds. Sharpens up quick, doesn't rust and holds an edge well.
 
ATwistedStaple said:
I think basically what this boils down to is that, a custom knife is inherently special, whereas a production knife has to rely on variables in material to give it any sense of that same attribute. The only reason they bother with ultra tough super steels is because it imparts a measure of exclusivity that the market responds to. Custom knife makers don't have to bother with that gimmick so they tend to use good steels like n690/vg10 that are easier to work with.

Personally, when it comes to a production knife, if there are two identical models in vg10 and Elmax I'm not going to pay extra for the Elmax. Just takes longer to sharpen. I still think CRK and CPM hit the nail on the head with S35VN. Best of both worlds. Sharpens up quick, doesn't rust and holds an edge well.
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Great point, and well said. The consensus seems to boil down to something almost like a simple formula: as the skill of the maker increases, and the time spent on producing the knife increases, the importance of the blade steel's composition tends to decrease. N690 is a proprietary equivalent of a Japanese steel called ZA-18, developed as a better-performing alternative to VG-10. Ankerson's edge retention tests seem to support this. The description of ZA-18 -- and N690co -- as having the ability to take the same very fine edge that makes VG-10 popular, with the same ease of sharpening, but with increased corrosion resistance and edge retention, seems plausible.

d00mtr33 said:
(...)Am I upset thst my $600 to $800 knives have n690? No, its a really good steel thats easy to sharpen, takes a very keen edge and can handle low angles, holds that edge pretty good and doesn't rust. Do I prefer m390, yes thats why im having my next L51 made in m390 but it adds cost and it will add sharpening time. As a steel junkee I was "bummed" at first when I got my A2 and it was n690 but after I used it fir a while, I was pleasantly surprised. Its a good mid range steel and with a good heat treat which Andre knows how to do, it performs great.
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It definitely sounds like a pretty good steel in the hands of custom/midtech makers -- I'd prefer M390 (or CTS-204P) as well -- but the concerns I had about whether or not N690 was a steel suitable for midtechs and customs, in particular the Bodega, are settled. It performs well in the right hands, and both Todd Begg and Andre Thorburn are very well-respected craftsman who know N690 well. Whether or not it will do as well as a production blade steel, I guess we'll see. It's popular in Europe, and Spyderco used it on the Pitts folder, amongst others.
 
I like N690. I have it in a really thin edged, Boker Haddock and it's tough stuff. I've cut medium and heavy thickness zip ties with it fully expecting to see damage and it didn't show any chips or rolls. I like it better than vg10, which it gets compared to.
 
shecky said:
When you pay $1k+ for a custom, you aren't paying for materials. You're paying for bragging rights.
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That is BS. No one I know has a clue what I pay for knives. I buy custom knives because I like the design and I use them all.

One of my favorites is a Curtiss F3 3.5 that is all TI with N690 blade. I use it all the time and keep it screaming sharp with just a strop. I think N690 is in the same tier with S35VN and XHP. All are easy to work with corrosion resistant and hold an edge well. None of them are in the League of M390 or S110v or some of the other super steels but they are great steels for those of us looking to use a knife daily.
 
shecky said:
When you pay $1k+ for a custom, you aren't paying for materials. You're paying for bragging rights.
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Depends on the maker of the knife.

$1000 can get you a plain titanium framed knife with a steel like CPM 154 or N690.

$1000 can also get you a full dress knife with mokume or timascus bolsters and M390-core San-mai damascus.
 
shecky said:
When you pay $1k+ for a custom, you aren't paying for materials. You're paying for bragging rights.
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Pretty limited bragging rights...
Other than on this forum, my brother, father, and two of my friends are the only ones I know who would care at all.
It isn't like a Ferrari or a Gucci bag or anything else that the general populace cares about.

Here's' how it would go with the general populace:

"Hey, look at my awesome new $1000 knife!"
"You're an idiot."
 
stabman said:
Pretty limited bragging rights...
Other than on this forum, my brother, father, and two of my friends are the only ones I know who would care at all.
It isn't like a Ferrari or a Gucci bag or anything else that the general populace cares about.

Here's' how it would go with the general populace:

"Hey, look at my awesome new $1000 knife!"
"You're an idiot."
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I once bought a $1000 Ferrari to brag about. People had the same response... Curious.
 
stabman said:
Pretty limited bragging rights...
Other than on this forum, my brother, father, and two of my friends are the only ones I know who would care at all.
It isn't like a Ferrari or a Gucci bag or anything else that the general populace cares about.

Here's' how it would go with the general populace:

"Hey, look at my awesome new $1000 knife!"
"You're an idiot."
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That's about right. Even with a 150 dollar knife people think the same thing. If only I could go up and say that about their 1000 dollar golf club or the spoiler and rims they put on their Mazda miata.
 
Production companies buy their materials in bulk, and thus get a discount. They have hundreds of machines to process every piece of their knives.

A custom knife however, comes from a small shop, where everything is fitted and machined by hand. Materials are purchased in small batches at pretty much full price.

As with anything, its where and how you place value.
 
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