Why is this happening!??? (forging)

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Oct 26, 2006
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Anybody know why this is happening? After the blade comes out of the forge, I get these "chicken pecks" on the blade. Where do these "scaling pits" come from??? This has happened to me twice in a row.
Too much heat? Not enough heat? Too many "heats"? This is a pic of my 1095 that this has happened to, and it happened much, much worse on a piece of A2 that I just forged. I'm losing my mind....someone please tell me what is going on, so that I can prevent it from happening again and ruining my blades.
Look especially towards the tip....see those deep pits? :thumbdn:
- Thanks
 
Never take anything I say as "Gospel", but me thinks you might have two things working against you.......

1. Perhaps your forge it too hot, however,

2. I think you might just have an oxygen-rich forge.

Perhaps somebody who knows something about making knives will chime in and offer some help.

Robert
 
Never take anything I say as "Gospel", but me thinks you might have two things working against you.......

1. Perhaps your forge it too hot, however,

2. I think you might just have an oxygen-rich forge.

Perhaps somebody who knows something about making knives will chime in and offer some help.

Robert
Thanks for the response, Robert. How do I make my forge not so oxygen-rich, if that's the problem? I have a "Forgemaster" propane forge.
- Thanks
 
Too hot...I think...and the oxygen thing....

Old timeys might tell you to toss in a bit of green coal...or charcoal to help burn away the oxygen. At least Jim Batson told me once to use that trick during HT so it don't scale too bad.

Prolly not right...what i siad..there's a lot more smarter guys here than me...

HOw many pounds of pressure you running your forge on?

I run mine as low as it will go without sputterin'...mebbe 4 pounds of pressure...my forge stays plenty warm for forging...

O' course others know better than me...

Really...you don't need a big blast furnace for forging little blades...

Little fire works fine...sort of finesse it a bit.

Good luck there.

Keep at it.

Shane
 
Thanks, Shane...I'm running it at 10 lbs. I forge thick blades...3/16 to 5/16, so I'm thinkin' that it needs to be really hot.
- Thanks again.
 
The "chicken pecks" appear to be where you are actually hammering scale down into the metal. When you pull it out of the fire you can always wire brush or bump some if the scale off and keep your anvil brushed free of scale. Try blocking some of you oxygen off also.
 
The "chicken pecks" appear to be where you are actually hammering scale down into the metal. When you pull it out of the fire you can always wire brush or bump some if the scale off and keep your anvil brushed free of scale. Try blocking some of you oxygen off also.
You mean, that's all it is? Me hammering debris into the blade? I sincerely hope you are right. Do you think, also, that the forge is too hot?
- Thanks!
 
I got to go along with scale hammered into the metal. Maybe a little to hot.
Course after I forge a blade I still have a lot of grinding left to do.
Take Care
TJ
 
To hot and to much air. I do my normal forging between 2 and 3 pounds pressure. The closer you get to the finish shape you also want to drop the temp down. Its all part of the learning process.
 
I'm going to side with stewart on this on. I think that the problem is a deep hammer mark with scale forced into the blade. Use good hammer control and make sure that your hammers have smooth edges and that you have the proper atmophere in your forge to reduce the scale..Also if you leave the edges a little thick you can usually grind out these little problem areas..
 
I think Robert and Raymond are right. Forging at a lower pressure may allow your forge to consume all the oxygen inside. Shane's idea of running as low as possible may be perfect for forging small blades. Use a magnent to judge your temp. Once it stops sticking to your blades, you don't need much more heat. Just my opinion....Hope it helps.

Bill Wiggins
 
Everybody's right.
Too hot and keep things clean.
Wipe off your anvil when your blade is back in the forge, and give the blade a quick wire brush before you start beating on it.
 
almost looks like bubbles (if possible) developed as you were forging and got left in there and as you ground the scale off, there they be! (I have no idea what i'm talking about) but it looks something weird like that! Everything is a learning experience! Keep it up and try again! Won't be long before you get it just perfect!!!
 
Me thinks too hot, too much oxygen, and probably scale hammered in. My first attempt at mosiac damascus was ruined because of scale pressed into the surface. I used 1/4" spacer on the press but didn't clean the dies as well as I should when drawing out. Figured 1/4" thick was plenty. The scale built up faster than I thought it would and if I ground all the pits out the formaly 1/4" bar would have been around 1/16" thick. If you keep your temp down and got your forge regulated rite you shouldn't get much scale, just tiny thin flakes, just wipe off your anvil while reheating the blade.
 
Thanks to all you guys. :thumbup: O.K., so I'm going to work neater and cleaner, reduce the heat a little, BUT, how do I reduce the oxygen? I have a "choke" on my forge, that Forgemaster advises be in the closed position when you light it...all it is is a little metal cover that partially covers one of the two intake tubes when it's in position. Should I try keeping the "choke" engaged while working? Also, my forge has two side openings (portals), in addition to the front door. Should I try to get some firebrick and close one of the portals? Can someone please explain to me how turning down the pressure on the propane will help to reduce the oxygen level inside the forge? I don't get it. I figure that the more I "blast", the more oxygen gets used up inside the forge. :confused:
- Thanks again for all you guys' help.
 
the flow of the propane and the flame it causes create a vacuum and that vacuum is what sucks air into a venturi forge. If you drop the pressure the propane has less velocity so less vacuum and less airflow. Try dropping the pressure and chokeing down the side drafts. My forge has a fan but, I can hear the change in voice of the fire. What you are trying to do is create a situation where all the 02 is burned. This means a tiny bit of fuel is not totally consumed. If things are hot and there is an excess of 02 it is going to want to burn something and your steel and the carbon in it are up for grabs so it is burning those.
 
the flow of the propane and the flame it causes create a vacuum and that vacuum is what sucks air into a venturi forge. If you drop the pressure the propane has less velocity so less vacuum and less airflow. Try dropping the pressure and chokeing down the side drafts. My forge has a fan but, I can hear the change in voice of the fire. What you are trying to do is create a situation where all the 02 is burned. This means a tiny bit of fuel is not totally consumed. If things are hot and there is an excess of 02 it is going to want to burn something and your steel and the carbon in it are up for grabs so it is burning those.
Thanks, Bro'....got it. :thumbup:
 
Those blades show classic signs of oxidation in forging. When I was teaching it would invariably show up on blades when students had the air blast too extreme or took too long to forge the knife. Both conditions expose the steel to oxygen long enough for large bits of steel to be turned into iron oxide and leave the blade, and also gets pounded back into the surface making pits which then oxidize deeper on subsequent heats.

There are two things that can happen to hot blade steel in the atmosphere, you can have the air take carbon - decarburization, or you can have the air take iron- scaling. Many confuse scaling with decarb when it is oxidized iron. Heavy scaling will give you things like this, while light scaling can actually help a little to fight decarb by removing iron from the decarburizing surface and maintaining a better ratio of the two. Carpenter steel did studies that involved heating steels in very oxidizing atmospheres which resulted in steels that had a higher concentration of carbon on the surfaces. This seemed insane, as everybody knows you must use a carburizing flame to carburize steel, until you stopped to think that there was no carbon added but instead iron was removed until the iron/carbon ratio was skewed in favor of carbon.

Why is a "reducing" atmosphere called that? Because it works very well in smelting to reduce iron oxide to pure iron. Atmosphere rich in carbon monoxide with an empty space hungry for another oxygen atom will strip it from iron oxide to form carbon dioxide and take it out the top of the furnace leaving purer iron behind. It is this funny balancing act that makes carburizing so tricky in anything other than an entirely closed atmosphere, and why the vast majority of claims of adding carbon to steel while forging is absolute bunk put forward by people that obviously have a very limited understanding of the complex chemistry involved. It’s complexity became very clear to me when I started messing with bloomery smelting and saw the chemical processes at work.

For many years now, all the scholars writing all the books stated that in ancient times only soft iron was made in the direct bloomery process, which then had to be cut up and carefully made into steel by carburizing in the forging process…wrong. The reality is quite the opposite. Steel and even cast iron is quite easy to make in a bloomery hearth and the forging process is much more often a matter of reducing the carbon content and evenly distributing it

…. I have wandered quite far from pock marks in blades, haven’t I?:o
 
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