Why is W&SS so in love with customs?

I really enjoy working with the customer. Emailing back and forth, working out the details having them help me create the knife that will serve them well. I encourage phone calls to work out more specific needs that are hard to do through emails. The best part for me is the feedback. What they were able to accomplish in the field. I've sold knives to outdoorsman in 11 countries, Canada and all over the US. One of the most interesting customers I've recently had lives in the Yukon Territories, Canada. He spends ALOT of time in the bush. Supplies and mail are brought in by bush plane.
I think I've got the best job out there. I love what I do. :D
Scott
 
Funny that Scott posted that right before I read this thread, mostly because the only customs I own are his. I was prefectly happy with my production knives when I read an article about Scott and his products on a different board. And I liked one of the knives he offered, so I got in touch and ordered one, now own several.

In all the years that I have been in the woods, I have had exactly one knife fail on me, a Buck. Even so, there (for me) is something reasuring about having a knife with me made one at a time, by hand, by someone who is well respected for making a quality product. I love the craftsmanship that goes into custom knives, the skill. And honestly, I find myself is awe of what some of the people make.
 
This is a picture of a $600 Cold Steel Laredo Bowie witht he handle removed. The blade is over 10" long and by my calculations, the tang is ~2" long. There is debate in the custom section about whether or not the cable and nut design would be good or bad. I wouldn't want to trust it, personally. And I'd be rather PO'd if I found out I owned a knife made this way. But it does have that customer service line you can call if the handle breaks off while you're out there trying to survive with it.

Assuming no-one had ever cut the handle off to try a rehandle project on a 600 dollar knife, you'd never have known exactly how precarious a tool you're betting your life on. But you'd feel comfortable that there was a whole department of customer service specialists ready to listen to your tale if it broke, right?

Just sayin.

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Mentor said:
For me, and for many others here I'm sure, wilderness outings are deeply personal experiences - the source of some of life's best moments and memories. Sometimes one's gear actually becomes part of the experience, rather than just a facilitator.
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Nicely written Mike!

Mentor said:
I display my knife collection in cabinets and on wall mounts around my home.
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This must make dating Toronto women challenging though ;)
 
kdstrick said:
How does a relatively small maker determine the quality of the heat treatment on the steel he uses? :confused:

How is the consistency? :confused:

How many makers really test their knives? (and I'm not talking about just making fuzz-sticks)... ;) Edge retention, durability, flexibility, etc... :confused:

How much will it take before it fails? :confused:

I'd be very interested in that information. Without it, how can you rely on your equipment in what may be (or turn into) a survival situation.
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I find the juxtaposition of this response against Fiddleback's rather an interesting one.

1) Broken blades due to bad heat treat (reading between the lines from responder - owing to inferior treating process on 'mom & pop' equipment).

2) Broken blades due to greedy industrial shortcuts (stick tangs that get smaller and smaller). For a big company the more expensive the knife, the bigger the profit margin related to a shortcut.

I've been on BF for well over a year now and have yet to see a snapped custom blade or badly chipped out one, but I've seen plenty of production models. Statistically there are far more production models + users out there so that might be expected even if they have the same fail rate.

A question to the makers - what kind of things do you do to regularly check your heat treat?
 
I have been making knives for about 4 years and competing in cutting competitions for a little over a year. My knives are now Rockwell tested. I also carry one of my knives everyday at work as a maintenance technician. I cut a lot of different materials. The main test I perform on my knives to check edge geometry (mainly to make sure it is not too thin) is chop on a piece of hickory that I use for smoking meat. The hickory I use has 90 degree or less angles. If it will chip or wrinkle in normal use I believe that I will do it on that log before my customer receives it. I have had some wrinkle, I thicken up the edge geometry and chop again.

Donavon

P.S. I also like this sub-forum because of the amount of custom/semi-customs used and how they are used by different people in different parts of the world. Very Interesting.
 
One reason IMO that you don't see many broken customs is that a way bigger percentage of them are differentially heat treated. The very idea there is that the knife is tough and less prone to snapping. Sure, as a person learns to heat treat there could be issues. I've had to scrap a batch of my own knives due to heat treating issues when I switched to 1095. I cought the faulty knives before they shipped and wound up sending them to my mom.
 
kgd's misconceptions about customs ring true for me. Until recently hanging out on this forum, I just didn't know that such a variety of quality, custom knives were available. These knives look made and designed to be used in the woods and also have the signature look of the different makers. Dang, now I'm going to have to get a few more.

I think seeing the knives displayed in a variety of pictures and reading the makers thoughts about the design and intended use are a plus.

kdstrick's concerns make sense and are things I thought about before ordering my first custom not long ago. So there is some uncertainty involved, but that just makes it more interesting to me, and gives me further excuse to play with the new knife in the back yard before heading for the woods with it. My new knife passed the battoning test in ashe juniper yesterday. Maybe this weekend it will see a little seasoned oak and some full fledged fire making work in East Texas.
 
Many custom makers on here offer superb knives at great costs. Many custom makers who achieve stardom, whether hot knife of the month, or long standing success, keep their prices comparable to what they started with, even while demand and expertise increase. If you are looking for a basic workhorse, many makers on here are the ones to come to.

I have examples from

Scott Gossman (3, with two more on the way), Bob Dozier (1), David Farmer (1), Butch Harner (1), Larry Nowicki (2) and Tom Goodpasture (1). Except for my two Barkies, two Swamp Rats and some Moras, I don't have any other production sheath knives. None really interest me right now, except for the Bark River Kephart and Mountain Man, Busse tuxedo Game Warden and a Strider CP-S.
 
I like what I like for whatever reason fits at the time. I love some customs, but have been disappointed by a couple mid-tech runs. Just the fit and finish on them wasn't what I felt was what I paid for. I like a lot of the semi-production/custom stuff and have been a fan of some major names for awhile. But, I have had Cold Steel knives come sharper(than many) and stay that way, I have chipped all the super steels you can name, and I can slice and dice with a $16.00 SAK or a Superknife II. What it all comes down to for me though, is what do I want that a maker is working on. Ariel's or Ray Laconico's Nessmuk are like nothing else I've seen out there. Fiddleback's handles and simplistic blade grinds are functional art and Airkat folders are pure SCI-FI and monstrous. The list can go on and on.
I can usually make a blade do whatever I need it to at the time. The customs, for me, are usually more about the style and material I want at the time rather than being functionally superior.
 
Gossman Knives said:
I really enjoy working with the customer. Emailing back and forth, working out the details having them help me create the knife that will serve them well. I encourage phone calls to work out more specific needs that are hard to do through emails. The best part for me is the feedback. What they were able to accomplish in the field. I've sold knives to outdoorsman in 11 countries, Canada and all over the US. One of the most interesting customers I've recently had lives in the Yukon Territories, Canada. He spends ALOT of time in the bush. Supplies and mail are brought in by bush plane.
I think I've got the best job out there. I love what I do. :D
Scott
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:thumbup: I could not agree more! The customers are great to work with, and talk to. And yes, it is the best job out there!

John
 
kdstrick said:
How does a relatively small maker determine the quality of the heat treatment on the steel he uses? :confused:

How is the consistency? :confused:
.
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I think both of these factors are intertwined. If a maker starts off using a certain steel for his knives after a while gets an idea of what works. So maybe the first dozen knives are an experiment for him. Then he makes a dozen more. After a couple years he has made hundreds of knives using the same techniques and all the while getting feedback from users.

Heat treating doesn't have to be rocket science. But it can be poor if something gets screwed up in the process. I think a maker develops quality through consistency.

I think the reputation of the maker is usually a testament to quality. I haven't seen too many cases of blades failing from the makers on this forum. Also the users of those knives tend to use them quite heavily, and reports from the field hold sway with me.
 
I am yet to break or see or hear of a broken knife by any of the makers you see here. I can be a little tuff on blades sometimes, batoning large pices of wood with only the tip popping out. I beat the handle and the tip with no ill effects on the knives. I have flexed my knives quite a bit while prying two pieces of wood apart and they always came back true. I am not talking about thick knives either, I'm talking 1/8th and 5/32, even a couple of 3/32.

You should of seen the crap we did to siguys machete last weekend. Siguy was trying to break it, but failed.

Every maker I have had the pleasure of dealing with will back up their product. So I say buy with confidence. These are knife users that make user knives!
 
When you purchase a custom there is a connection between maker, knife, and user. There is a relationship. You can actually talk to the person who is making your knife and that inspires confidence and trust. There is something personal about the whole process that is lacking in production knife buying. There is more transparency when the makers name is on the blade instead of hiding behind a brand name that was made who knows where.

Custom makers, especially those on the WSS, are able to put their time, thought, and experience in making knives. These knives are made with a purpose and with an eye toward what makes a knife work. So many of the production knives on the market are designed to look cool and sell well those who may not even know why they need the knife.

It seems that we are in the good ol’ days of custom knives. Thanks to the internet’s way of moving information more and more people are able to start building knives and we are exposed to knife makers we might otherwise never hear of. Prices are also very competitive. Customs no longer have to automatically cost more than productions. There is competition which is good for us, the consumers. Just look at the prices that makers like Fiddleback, JK, Laconico, Koyote, Breeden, MuskratMan, Koster, etc, etc, etc…

For me, the above reasons area all factors but the most compelling is that a custom is made for me. There is something very human and attractive about a knife that is made just the way we want it. It builds the connection between knife and user faster than any production knife can. We will often even put up with imperfections if they can be traced back to the hand that crafted the knife just for us. There is charm in that.

So many of us, I believe, still appreciate business done with a handshake, quality purpose built knives, a fair price, and the pride of ownership that comes with a knife made just for you. These ideas are universal, or at least they used to be. We love customs because we are human!
 
kgd said:
On the other hand - the above negativisms are no less applicable to productions. In fact, productions pay high end photographers and marketers the big bucks to propogate all those little white lies (think cold steel video). The only difference is you can sometimes pre-handle a production at a shop before you buy.
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I know I personally allow any buyer of one of my knives a full week to return with absolutely no questions asked. You don't like the color, no problem. You want the handle thicker/thinner, no problem. Your dog farted and made it smell funny, no problem.



kdstrick said:
All fair questions and good comments. Personally, my concern is different. Heat treatment. As we all know, the performance of the steel is largely determined by it. All O1, or D2 is not equal, nor is any other steel.

My concerns are not with the grind of the knife, or the edge geometry, both of which are easily changed, but with the steel itself. Without proper, and consistent heat treatment the steel will not perform to my expectations.

How does a relatively small maker determine the quality of the heat treatment on the steel he uses? :confused:

How is the consistency? :confused:

How many makers really test their knives? (and I'm not talking about just making fuzz-sticks)... ;) Edge retention, durability, flexibility, etc... :confused:

How much will it take before it fails? :confused:

I'd be very interested in that information. Without it, how can you rely on your equipment in what may be (or turn into) a survival situation.
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I use the same type of Rockwell tester that any knife production company would use.

I beat the CRAP out of my knives in my wood pile. (chopping, battoning, whittling, whatever)

I shave MDF until my arm hurts (MUCH more abrasive than wood)

and I intentionally break 1 out of 10 blades to check grain size, flexibility, etc

show me a production company that intentionally destroys 10% of their product.........
 
Probably the first draw toward custom knives came for me in the way of price. When I started looking at fixed blades, I saw a lot of nice knives that were priced far higher than I thought they should be. Saw some reviews around here (coughbearthedogcough) and found out that most of the designs I wanted could be had at just as good or better quality for a lot less money. Several of the custom makers common to this forum will make you a killer knife for right around 100 bucks, even less sometimes. Why would I pay 250 when I can get the same or better for 100?

The next fun part of a custom knife is the interaction with the maker himself. Have only dealt with a handful of makers personally, but they've all been great. Even if you're ordering a "model" from a custom maker, most of them will tweak it for you, and those little tweaks can make the difference between a knife you love and one that's just okay. And it's very cool when a knifemaker invites you to his shop, and you get to watch your knife appear from raw material.

I have also found that many custom knives come with *much* better edge geometry than production knives.
 
Fiddleback said:
One reason IMO that you don't see many broken customs is that a way bigger percentage of them are differentially heat treated. The very idea there is that the knife is tough and less prone to snapping.
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I agree with that. I also think that another reason why you don't see many broken customs is that a lot of folks baby their custom knives. Custom knives end up as safe queens in the drawer a heck of a lot more often than production knives. Here in Finland, for example, no-one would use a hand-made custom puukko to do the things they would gladly use a 2 $ Mora knife to do. That's not to say that no-one uses their customs. The folks on this forum certainly do, as do I. :thumbup:
 
I used to be a Production guy. I just felt that with a bigger company, you
had the assurance that you wouldn't get a bad product, and that you would
have the factory warranty to back the knife up.

This was until I was visiting a friend who had two of Nick's forum knives.
After holding those knives and seeing the quality, I was sold.
The productions just didn't compare.

The first custom/semi-custom knife that I got was Nick Allen's NWA forum
knife design. I had just missed out on the forum knife, but Nick was nice
enough to make one for me but without the forum stamp. I love it and use it
a lot.

The second custom/semi-custom that I got was a Koster Bushcraft in a
private deal. I wasn't too impressed with the design UNTIL I started using
it. Now it is my most used knife!

The third one that I got was one of Dan Koster's Blade leftover Nessmuks.
Haven't used that one as much as the first two yet.

Now I've got on order: one of Nick's Camp Knives as well as Dan's Nessmuk
Kit knife and one of Dan's Bushmaster knives.

The custom/semi-custom knives are all great, well thought out designs and
each are crafted with care. Each has come super sharp, and all are great
knives.

I have both production and customs/semi-customs, and have to say that I
really doubt that I will ever get another production knife.
Ok, well I might get a RC-3, but other than that, I'm thinking I'll stick to
people like Dan and Nick.
They are great people to deal with and produce great knives.

Cheers
 
I think there's another reason that remains largely unspoken, why people on this forum like customs so much.
It's been mentioned that people here use their knives a lot. But I don't think that's the direct reason. I think the direct reason for preferring a custom is that they use their knives enough to know exactly what they want. Often this can only be had in a custom.
 
I think that the reason that you see customs more in this forum than in general knife discussion is that the general forum is the "wading pool" so to speak. It is where all of the newbies start. It is where I started. For most people, their first quality knife is a production model. They go to the general forum (because they are new) and find out about production knives (because that is what is talked about). Once they get immersed, the venture out into the other areas. They discover the makers' forum, the custom knife forum, the for sale forums (by maker), and the exchange.

I think that the reason that you see more production knives broken is that more people own production knives. I would bet that everyone on bladeforums owns at least one production knife. However, only a small percentage of people here own even one custom knife. And, those customs that are owned, are generally treated as more than a $10 mora. Even if we talk about it, with a custom it is hard to "beat it like you stole it."

From my observation, the most popular catergory of knives on the WSS forum are mora knives, falkniven knives, and bark river knives- not necessarily in that order. Yes you see a higher percentage of customs here than in general, but there are many fewer of use here than there.
 
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