Why isn't Spyderco doing anything to combat the fake copies of their products?

[D-R0CK]

I've also thought about a system that is very similar to what you have described - randomized alphanumeric numbering, in conjunction with a searchable database on Spyderco's website. The only issue I see with this is - what happens when the counterfeiters buy legit spyderco knives and just copy the genuine serials onto their fakes? The database would have to somehow limit the number of times that a serial could be searched, or require the user to register that serial number in some way, to prevent it from being used again. Or maybe once a serial number is entered for the first time, the data base creates a randomized password that must be entered on subsequent visits to access info about that serial number again.

There are definitely ways to outsmart the counterfeiters, and I'm glad that there are some like-minded people here. I just don't buy into the "oh there is nothing that you can do......so lets just lay down and die" mentality.

It's very clear that these overseas governments do not play by the same rules and laws that we do - so why would you try to have any legitimate "legal" battle over this? That's just a waste of time and money. Take control of the situation, and implement something to protect your product.

I think if they had a note on the web tool saying "This serial has been searched ___ times" that would be a good start, if it's supposed to be a brand new knife never out of box it shouldn't have been ever searched for. If it's been searched for 150 times... I got news for ya... And they can't afford to buy a ton of legit knives to get serials from, the real deal are too expensive would cut into profit margins too much. I wonder if anyone has done metallurgical testing on these counterfeits. If it's 8cr13MoV it could be coming out of a legit manufacturer's factory... If it's soft generic stainless maybe not.

 

[D-R0CK]

Although I like the idea of serial numbers, they won't do much to curb the real issue. They'd simply be a talking point for the afis, like model numbers are currently. People who know care enough know the difference between the C27 and the C34. People who want the big pointy and scary-lookin one they saw in that movie looking bada$$ will buy the knockoff instead of the real one, even with extensive serial numbers.

But the number is there to protect the consumer. If you search and the serial has never been registered/searched for, you know you're okay. If not, and it's supposed to be brand new, you can return it. This protects consumers and the company. This just helps

A) Protect the sort of consumer who generally buys a spyderco, who I think genuinely cares about the sort of tool he uses.

B) Gives a complete affirmation that an item is counterfeit/fake. You don't have to be an aficionado to tell a fake from the real deal. This eases the burden on consumers who are already trying to buy the real product and a company stretched to its limit trying to deal with warranty work etc on fakes.

 

[gadgetgeek]

I get the feeling that counterfeiting might be the savior of the brick and mortar. By supporting trusted dealers, with anything you buy, you are doing what you can to get a good product. When you can't trust all the online sources, instead of fondling in store and then getting from the bay, you can walk away with the real deal. I don't think this will hurt the reputable online dealers either, but they will have to work more closely with the manufacturers to cross advertise. I'll be looking for authorized dealer lists on sites before I buy now.
Obviously I want the best for all of the manufactures, I want them to do well, but at the end of the day, they will have to scale production to sales. And if that means they sell fewer products to a harder core group of fans, then thats tough. There will always be people that will spend the dollars to get the product they want. There will always be rip-off goods. From camping gear to jet parts. Heck it was revealed a year ago that during a live-fire shoot 25% of ordnance in the Canadian arsenal had failures due to counterfeit electronics. Fake computer chips have showed up in everything from stingers to F15s. Fake turbine parts have been showing up in commercial fleets. Its kinda hard for anyone to get freaked out over a bunch of pocket knives, when the next aircraft accident might get traced to a faked turbine. Can you imagine the fallout if an electronics failure caused a US fighter to become one with the earth?
I know that everyone wants to save a buck. I get that, I have to very carefully pick everything I buy due to import markups, and often a great deal is really tempting. But from now on I'll be spending the extra I need to if it means getting the genuine article, and supporting another guy who is trying to make a living.

 

[PayneTrain]

I get the feeling that counterfeiting might be the savior of the brick and mortar.

It's certainly another reason. It's funny, there are a lot of reasons to shop at the local knife shop (if you can find one), but sometimes the premium over the rock bottom online prices is just too great. I do it when I can and I feel good about it and all, but I'd wager for the majority of customers the price is the most important part. I wish I had a store that stocked (or at least could order) the brands and models I want. I don't know of a single one in CT. There used to be a neat little shop nearby that was instrumental in my knife problem more than 10 years ago, but he's long gone.

Another problem: what's to stop brick and mortar stores from stocking counterfeits? Especially if they're getting better and becoming more readily available in bulk. Local dealers might unwittingly stock fakes, or might do it willfully to rake in the extra profits. Finding an authorized dealer is just another step that non-knife-nut customers probably will not take. It's a tough situation, and again I don't envy Sal or any other company that has to deal with it. They have my support, that's about all I can offer.

 

[gadgetgeek]

There is nothing to stop a brick and mortar from setting the price they want, but traffic helps with prices. More stock turnover lowers prices. There are a lot of reputable online dealers in the US that can be supported as well. I guess when I say brick and mortar stores, I also mean in-country online stores.
As for stores stocking the fakes, thats where we can help. If you go into a store that is selling a fake, first you can tell the owner, and they may change their supply, or if they don't do anything, its far easier for the manufacturer to take legal action against them here, rather than over-seas. It doesn't have to be a lawsuit, I'm sure that a simple phone call or visit could sort things out. I feel most people want to be honest, and only do dishonest things when they have a plausible deniability. Take that away in a gentle way, and they will come around. That keeps the manufacturer looking like the good guy. For larger stores, I think fakes could still happen, but if BassPro found out that part of their supply chain was shipping them fakes, they have a lot of weight to throw around to correct that. Some online retailers like amazon will be tougher, but even still, by reporting fakes that show up, it can help chill the market.

As more and more poor quality products show up online, I think the hard-core online shoppers are turning more and more to reputable dealers instead of chasing the cheap stuff. At the end of the day, you end up wasting so much time with crap that the knock offs no longer have value.

Beyond that its just public education. Letting people know that they need to really look carefully at what they buy. We've seen so many inferior products that everyone has heard of one thing, but maybe doesn't realize how widespread the problems are.

Another thing that we can do, is when buying online, using the clout of paypal to stop fakes. Yes you still have to do your diligence, but you can lodge a claim against sellers with counterfeits.

 

[Blinkknives]

It's frustrating!
I take a lot of pride in purchasing high quality products, especially items that I value highly (Knives, Cars, Watches etc)
Most times you can spot the fakes by the language in the ads and in the fine details in the products, however with these dishonest products come dishonest people. It would be impossible to get justice from chasing these opportunistic criminals as they are typically faceless individuals. Many brands suffer from this type of thing ( all highly valued products) - Rolex, Coach, Spyderco etc - . It's too bad there wasn't something from currency forgery that could be used in the products that would be more difficult or more expensive for the forgers to reproduce.
I will continue to buy quality,I would however like some confidence that a copy could be identified more easily.

 

[pnsxyr]

I am sorry to say it, but the forces trying to copy Spyderco really outnumber the people of Spyderco making legit products. Spyderco operates within the confines of law...the people copying Spyderco do not. Spyderco is really the company that made the one-handed opener a reality, and the Delica/Endura is a knife that is recognized worldwide as that good-quality one-handed opener. That's a bullseye on the company. As Spyderco knives don't cost thousands, they can't add some anti-CF features that are seen elsewhere without undermining their own principles of quality and value.

As the owner himself replies to this thread and others on both this forum and other forums, it's clear Spyderco genuinely cares about this and about their customers in general. But how much can they really do here?

As a start, it will require a change in attitude with eBay, which is a place fakers love to go to.

It will require actual consumers get smarter; often common sense and a little research can avoid a fake. (while not always, I would say this often helps)

And it will require enthusiasts to take an active role here to fight back.





Where do makers go from here as this becomes a bigger issue?

One of the first thing watchmakers started doing was making videos from CEOs/company people on how to identify their products as being legit, and guidelines for avoiding fakes. ADs are key here, and they started making information on who is/isn't an AD much more visible by using certain seals/certifications, cards showing authenticity with stitches, methods for verification, or printed codes per-model to identify regional dealers/shipping locations. Is that possible here? No clue. All of this costs time and money, and the reality is that people who lack the morals like the fakers do will do damned near anything to get around anti-fake technology or efforts. The billions spent on stopping people from faking money clearly illustrates this. When there is a will, there is a way. That doesn't mean we should lay down and quit, but we have to realize that what Spyderco can do and what we can do is still, to some degree, limited.

 

[Sal Glesser]

We have a representative that will be speaking before a congressional committee in Wash DC next week. While I don't expect our government to do anything, we do have to try.

sal

 

[Sal Glesser]

We have a representative that will be speaking before a congressional committee in Wash DC next week. While I don't expect our government to do anything, we do have to try.

sal

 

[Surfingringo]

We have a representative that will be speaking before a congressional committee in Wash DC next week. While I don't expect our government to do anything, we do have to try.

sal

Yes sir, you do. We all pay those fellas, so by all means put them to work doing something that we all actually agree on for a change! They probably won't listen to "spyderco" but adding your voice to the many others will make it louder. Nobody listens up there until that collective voice becomes so loud it annoys them. Good luck annoying someone!!

 

[open_market]

I ready many of the comments, but not all of them. So forgive me if someone has already brought this up.

Gerstner still manufactures in the US a high quality tool chest. Given the amount of labor that goes into the chest, it has been copied overseas many times. Gerstner tackled this problem by creating an imported version at a lower price. Not the same chest, and not the same quality, but Gerstner did police the QA, put their name on it, and sell it at a competitive price to the knockoffs. Could Spyderco do something similar?

This does not address the issue of companies/countries that ignore copyright and patent law.

- Rick

 

[C_Becker]

They do, the "Byrd" line

 

[skyhorse]

We have a representative that will be speaking before a congressional committee in Wash DC next week. While I don't expect our government to do anything, we do have to try.

sal

I wonder if an online petition would help get they're attention being it's an election year ?

 

[okto]

It's too bad there wasn't something from currency forgery that could be used in the products that would be more difficult or more expensive for the forgers to reproduce.

And where would those authentication devices be made?

The problem is that we've moved all our manufacturing to a country (countries plural, in truth, but China is the overwhelming heavyweight) with loose copyright laws because we value profit over all other considerations.
We got what we paid for.

 

[Thomas Linton]

And where would those authentication devices be made?

The problem is that we've moved all our manufacturing to a country (countries plural, in truth, but China is the overwhelming heavyweight) with loose copyright laws because we value profit over all other considerations.
We got what we paid for.

In this case, as in most, no profit, no company. No company, no products. If you are a skilled metal-worker and wish to work for free, I'm sure that would help.

 

[okto]

I'm not advocating no profit. Profit-seeking is not the problem. Growing the thing you've built is a good impulse and makes lots of things possible that would not be otherwise. Profit-seeking at the expense of anything else is what I'm getting at, the focus on dollar value and ignoring all other values. Trying to produce things as cheaply as possible with no regards to the inevitable consequences associated with that kind of thinking.

You can have cheaper products produced overseas, with the inevitable costs of loss of American jobs and counterfeit goods (which sell for the exact same reason the foreign-built brand-name goods do, they're cheap and good), or you can prioritize domestic manufacturing with the result that goods cost more but our copyright laws apply to manufacturers, but you can't eat your cake and have it too.

I'm not blaming Spyderco here at all. They have to do business in the marketplace as it exists, not as it ought to be.

I'm just saying that counterfeits are what we pay for the benefit of lower production costs. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch, and if we remember that there are value metrics other than currency, that becomes readily apparent.

 

[pnsxyr]

We have a representative that will be speaking before a congressional committee in Wash DC next week. While I don't expect our government to do anything, we do have to try.

sal

Mr. Sal Sir, I realize you guys are limited in what you can do given your knives are targeted in the knife world such as Rolex is in the watch world (i.e., there are throngs of criminals making fakes, and a ton of these makers are in areas where the US has no real influence or affect), so by no means do I feel there is a lack on your behalf. Fact of the matter is that this is a nightmare scenario for any maker of fine products and many have found that their efforts to stop forgeries had minimal success despite tremendous expenditure.



Still, I am curious if you would ever consider doing something like making a video on how to spot fakes? I also think a video of you on your website noting that there are fake copies out there and urging new buyers to go through authorized retailers would go a long way, especially to new buyers, and likely leave a stronger impression than a text-only message. Linking that with an application (with mobile capabilities) to search authorized dealers or check a name against them could also be useful.

I know the downside of this is if you go into too much detail, the jerkoffs who steal designs may try to use it for their advantage, so I am just suggesting this if it may bring more good than bad.

Could collectors potentially assist here too as a "watchdog"?—perhaps using a web page (or forum thread) help identify sellers/companies known to do this or have association with those who partake in this theft? I personally don't want to give a penny of my money to anyone associated with ripoffs of original designs.

As many criminals are now making clones cosmetically well enough to make differentiating some of them difficult, I think that makes the issue worse and more difficult. If someone (unknowingly) uses a fake Delica in the fashion they would a real Delica, serious bodily injury could result when the fake copy fails to perform anywhere near the level associated with a (legit) Spyderco Delica...and given the Delica is known for being able to withstand hard usage and harsh conditions and the general fact that even decent cosmetically-looking fakes generally do not perform like their authentic counters, I'm talking about things like chopped off fingers from a lock failure or a deep puncture injury from a blade fracturing under stress.



Changing that auction site seems to be a nightmare too, and since many sellers are in other countries, some of the change has to come from them as no one else can really change it. A few years ago, quite a few Swiss watchmakers who were pissed at them for allowing fakes of their watches to sell (hurting the brand name) organized and prepared to take collective legal action. The ultimate outcome was this company became much, much, much more vigilant about pulling fakes. Not sure if that could help in field of knives, but it has had a pretty big impact with watches.

 

[The Mastiff]

Could collectors potentially assist here too as a "watchdog"?—perhaps using a web page (or forum thread) help identify sellers/companies known to do this or have association with those who partake in this theft? I personally don't want to give a penny of my money to anyone associated with ripoffs of original design

This forum and the Spyderco factory forum both have an area that is for reporting bogus knives and/or dealers. It's well used and you should keep tabs on it as there are fairly current updates. Somebody will typically spot new fakes in a short amount of time. If it is a dealer at an auction web site we all know Spyderco reports it after checking it out. I'm sure they stay pretty busy.

The problem is that we've moved all our manufacturing to a country (countries plural, in truth, but China is the overwhelming heavyweight) with loose copyright laws because we value profit over all other considerations.
We got what we paid for.

With american and european knives being counterfeited not long after being designed and made here ( or in europe) then released into the market I don't get how our doing business with them as a country would affect the worldwide demand for fakes. That demand is there and will get filled somewhere by someone whether we have products made in that country or not. Our own country has produced it's share of fakes. If someone wants to counterfeit a product they will . In fact you are likely to get better cooperation from that countries authorities if you are a legitimate business partner of that nation.

 

[pinetreebbs]

Thanx.

Looks like Alibaba will be on the US stock exchange. It is my understading that they handle many of the counterfeits which I guess weill made them legitimate. Interesting that there are so many real problems in our country with potentially long term negative effects and it seems the news media and politicians hover on less significant issues.

sal

We have a representative that will be speaking before a congressional committee in Wash DC next week. While I don't expect our government to do anything, we do have to try.

sal

Sal,

Perhaps with a US presence it might make it easier to put pressure Alibaba and even to sue them for being a front for counterfeiters?

Would it help for Spyderco fan to write and put pressure on legislators?

 

[quigibo]

We have a representative that will be speaking before a congressional committee in Wash DC next week. While I don't expect our government to do anything, we do have to try.

sal

I wish you the best of luck!