Why isn't Spyderco doing anything to combat the fake copies of their products?

PayneTrain said:
It's the only way I see to combat the problem. A pretty simple solution to an incredibly complicated problem. I don't understand a damn thing about economics, but I'm pretty sure once the people are educated and demand for counterfeits dries up, the good guys win. But therein lies another problem. Education. Not every knife customer is on a forum and has access to the information, or has even thought to look. Not every knife customer even really cares; all some people care about is their own money and those are the people who give the excuses that Sal referenced, as well as the excuses eBay might reference for allowing the "legal" sale of blatantly counterfeit goods. Spyderco is hopelessly outnumbered, but with enough of our support they can keep fighting the good fight. I'll leave you with the most hackneyed, but still my favorite George Carlin quote:
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(Not me, of course. I used a semicolon in a sentence today!)
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I do not believe most people are stupid....they are just apathetic.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Interesting that there are so many real problems in our country with potentially long term negative effects and it seems the news media and politicians hover on less significant issues.

sal
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Same as it ever was, Sal. Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel.
 
Screwdriver said:
Not true, an apathetic person can be intelligent. A stupid person, is just stupid. Apathy changes when a person is directly affected....then they become concerned.
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Well then you have to define intelligence, and not even the world of psychology has succeeded there. My point is, it's an uphill battle because the vast majority of Americans aren't on here with us researching their purchases like we are. Though I imagine we are a large enough part of the market (in money spent, not in % of the population) to support the legit companies and dealers enough to encourage them to keep fighting the good fight and not give in to the black or even gray markets.

At least I hope we are...
 
As I mentioned earlier, I think that edge u cation is only a small part. People want buy copies and counterfeits (because they're cheaper) and they create a market. Copiers and counterfeiters are just filling the market demand. "Chicken or Egg".

I think it is a core value problem (most bang for the buck) that drives lower prices. Copy what is successful in design and make it cheaper. Foolproof method for making money.

sal
 
I hear you Sal, but that's part of the education. I'm not really getting more "bang for the buck" if I buy a p.o.s. fake Millie that falls apart after two hours when I could have bought a helluva knife like the Tenacious for the same price. The trick is how do you convince folks of that BEFORE they purchase. Yes, some folks will screw themselves over trying to get something for nothing, but very few will intentionally throw away money if they are armed with the truth.
 
Hey Lance,

I don't think we are in disagreement. I believe that the type of education you are discussing is monumental....the kind of methods used by politicians and drug companies. Your personal values are, in my opinion, on a higher or better level than the majority of the population. How did you learn to value higher quality? If you were barely making ends meet (as many today), and you wanted to buy a knife, isn't a poor copy of a good design a viable solution?

We are a mouse and our squeak is barely heard except by a few on the forum.

sal
 
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Sal Glesser said:
Thanx.

Looks like Alibaba will be on the US stock exchange. It is my understading that they handle many of the counterfeits which I guess weill made them legitimate. Interesting that there are so many real problems in our country with potentially long term negative effects and it seems the news media and politicians hover on less significant issues.

sal
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That is a sad state of affairs indeed. I guess as long as tax breaks are being offered and people put short term profit over longevity and stabilization this will continue. Too many special interest lobby groups and the disinterested representation we have is overwhelming.

Screwdriver said:
Like the Kardashians?
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I was thinking more along the lines of Honey Boo Boo...but you make a good point.
 
Sigh, maybe so Sal, maybe so. The truth is, I don't want to believe that because it makes me sad.

As far as how I learned to value higher quality; I learned by trying to save money buying junk and realizing that in the long run I came out cheaper spending a bit more for something well made.
 
Wise for one so young.

I guess I should be more clear in "bang for the buck". There is nothing wrong with that as long as the "Bang" is clearly defined to include performance and longevity. Unfortunately many just think cheaper is better.

sal
 
I used to hold a very dismissive attitude toward counterfeiters, but just a few weeks ago I stumbled upon the "A DAI 0999". It was a copy of the ZT 0454 that replaced the composite blade with an "S35vn" (probably 9cr13) blade. Upon doing some more research, I saw that the carbon fiber, lockbar, steel insert, action, and other details were very hard to differentiate from the real thing. I became so enamored with the copy that I seriously considered selling one of my favorite knives just to get my hands on one.

A week later, I noticed that a lot of people in the Russian knife community were putting out notices of copies of popular Spyderco knives (Military, paramilitary 2, etc.). These copies were harder to distinguish from the real thing than any others I'd previously seen.

It seems like people are willing to pay more for better copies. The aforementioned A DAI cost 170$ and a specific Military copy cost 60$ (as opposed to the 20-30 I've seen them going for a few years ago).

I don't think it's just that people are apathetic; Chinese manufacturing capabilities have gotten so good that people have a chance to experience a simulacrum of something that they otherwise couldn't reach.
Unless China, (and other countries) changes its policy on copying, counterfeiters are likely to continue plying their craft, and get better and better at it. For counterfeiting to stop, customers need to change their behavior. I don't know how to bring about this change, but one thing to try is to remind customers exactly how much counterfeiting hurts the companies whose products they buy copies of.

Those are my 2 cents. Until then, best of luck Sal. Thank you for giving us an insight into what Spyderco goes through to stop counterfeiting.
 
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I am a very judicious consumer, as are most people on these forums. That's why we're here right? Every purchase I make needs to be carefully researched and rationalized. That's why I buy Spyderco in the first place. Talk about bang for buck, correct me if I'm wrong but that seems to be the driving force behind 99% of the catalog. To bother with a cheaply made replica just because it's a better deal is just a leap my brain cannot make. You know it's not going to be as good, you know it will fall apart and need replacement, how can one justify saving a little money now only to spend more in the long run? Soooo many companies get rich off that lack of foresight in so many different ways every day, one has to be super vigilant to minimize it.

But that's only for those who are willingly buying counterfeits. My guess is that a much larger portion of the end user market gets duped into buying them, and probably never even knows it. They don't care who Spyderco is, they just liked the look of the knife, bought it, broke it, and they'll never buy a Spyderco again, real or fake. I think that's where the real damage comes from, and the hardest problem to solve. I suppose you'd have to start with the dealers that sold the counterfeits and stop it there since they are the ones making the conscious decision to buy from an unscrupulous distributor and either educate them about what they're doing or if it was intentional...well I don't know what course of action Spyderco has there. All I know is I feel for you Sal. I'm getting white hairs just trying to understand this issue.
 
PayneTrain said:
My guess is that a much larger portion of the end user market gets duped into buying them, and probably never even knows it.
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Sal Glesser said:
I think the biggest part of the problem is, while some buy copies and are duped, many consumers buy copies, knowing they're copies and choose to do so.

sal
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It appears we have a difference of opinion here. With all due respect, PayneTrain, my sense is that Sal is correct. Far more people buy copies on purpose than are duped into purchasing them.
 
bld522 said:
It appears we have a difference of opinion here. With all due respect, PayneTrain, my sense is that Sal is correct. Far more people buy copies on purpose than are duped into purchasing them.
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Hey like I said, I know next to nothing about economics and am struggling to understand this problem. Maybe I just don't want to believe that many people are out there doing something that my brain just can't possibly rationalize. I'd much prefer to think that more people are getting conned than actually willingly buying that junk. I love research and statistics, and this topic intrigues me. I'd love to learn more about it. At this point I'm just spitballing.
 
The problem are not the copies that are dirt cheap and crappy. The problem are copies which are cheap enough AND good enough. Many users will not notice/mind that i.e. 440C ist not S35VN. Those that are happy with the coppy will buy them again, encourage friends... and won't spend the extra buck for the real deal.

Obviously that's a lot of people, just take a look at Aliexpress Seller statistics for those selling fake nives.
 
Thomas Linton said:
http://www.slate.com/articles/techn...ar_solarworld_case_is_bad_for_green_jobs.html
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That's exactly what I'm talking about.

If anything displays the inept American response to the trade war being waged upon us by China, it is the SolarWorld case. Our foreign policy is so lacking that a German company can tell us what to do in regards to Chinese products, and our politicians have no thoughtful response to either country's domination of a domestic commodity market. It demonstrates that a tariff policy (24-36%) had virtually no effect on trade other than to move production to a capitalist country:
Article said:
They scored a win in 2012, when the U.S. Commerce Department agreed to impose tariffs of 24 to 36 percent on Chinese photovoltaic panels. As it turned out, though, the duties did little to stem the flow. The Chinese manufacturers simply outsourced part of the production process to Taiwan.
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I don't know what better demonstrates that a trade war is being waged upon us than the degree to which the Chinese government can under price a commodity to the degree that they can still afford to assemble them in a capitalist country and be fine after a 36% tariff.

Many of the people on here are willing to deal with the discomfort of high price out of principle of supporting the makers and designers of high-quality products. As previously addressed, many people prefer the knockoff that's "good enough." The difference between the two groups are ethics and principles associated with core economic principles and values.

It's fine though. We'll continue to watch them put the screws to companies like Spyderco until none of them exist here. They've already done it to display manufacture. They're doing it to virtually the entire tech sector. It's happening to lumber and even steel now. I don't think the millenials are unaware that their standard of living is going down while Chinese millenials are seeing their standard of living rise. I also don't think they're unwise to why, or how it is happening, or even whom should be blamed for the downslide.

If I had my druthers, we'd go full Star Trek, and stop pretending that money is different for one person than another because of geopolitical boundaries.
 
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