Why no love for Eickhorn?

[Quiet]

Which KaBar Tanto are you talking about?
The one with the huge swedge? The one with more belly? They all look different to the KM2000 and all have less than ergonomic guards and no skull crushing thingies. Also no screws on the Kabars and not so easy to disassemble and maintain and don't get me started with the KaBar sheath.
This is a KaBar tanto (my model)

Source: http://lairdfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/K-92-KA-BAR-Next-Generation-Tanto-12-inch.jpg

I am speaking of this one. It's a superior knife for (far) less money than the KM2000.

http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/12

 

[Quiet]

Also, what fixed blade have you ever had to disassemble in order to "maintain"? I've got plenty of fixed blades that I've carried through some hiking and camping trips where weather was the biggest problem imaginable, and have never once had to disassemble any of my Kabars (or any of my other knives for that matter). Speaking of sheathes, that KM2000 sheath looks like a Mora sheath that someone strapped to a nylon backing and called it a day. High quality that is.

 

[t1mpani]

Well, that's not THE Kabar if you mention the name to your average knife person, though you're correct it is a similar-looking knife made by Kabar. Now, since Eickhorn is a name most people in the US don't know, I find it kind of farfetched that Kabar would bother copying them when there are so many well known makers to copy. Of course, both of them are rip-offs of the Cold Steel "americanized tanto" design from the 1980s, which is an exercise in minimal effort on the knife maker's part (put blade in first jig, grind one bevel, put in second jig, grind second bevel, no hand work required!) and then selling the virtues of the "reinforced secondary point" to eager people who don't know any better.
I will say, upon reflection, that the cutting geometries of both of these knives look to be so abysmal that one having a better steel or heat treatment than the other is probably a moot point.

 

[Quiet]

Well, that's not THE Kabar if you mention the name to your average knife person, though you're correct it is a similar-looking knife made by Kabar. Now, since Eickhorn is a name most people in the US don't know, I find it kind of farfetched that Kabar would bother copying them when there are so many well known makers to copy. Of course, both of them are rip-offs of the Cold Steel "americanized tanto" design from the 1980s, which is an exercise in minimal effort on the knife maker's part (put blade in first jig, grind one bevel, put in second jig, grind second bevel, no hand work required!) and then selling the virtues of the "reinforced secondary point" to eager people who don't know any better.
I will say, upon reflection, that the cutting geometries of both of these knives look to be so abysmal that one having a better steel or heat treatment than the other is probably a moot point.

Agreed on all counts. I'd like to clarify that I'd never buy either of those knives. All of my Kabars are either the old style clip point, or the newer Becker line drop points.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Also, what fixed blade have you ever had to disassemble in order to "maintain"? I've got plenty of fixed blades that I've carried through some hiking and camping trips where weather was the biggest problem imaginable, and have never once had to disassemble any of my Kabars (or any of my other knives for that matter). Speaking of sheathes, that KM2000 sheath looks like a Mora sheath that someone strapped to a nylon backing and called it a day. High quality that is.

If its 1095 and moisture entered your tang hole, better check what's happening in there. No idea how you get the peened pin out of the KaBars pommel. For sure you'll need more tools than the penny to open the one screw on the KM2000.
Where do you place your thumb for delicate tasks? On this straight sheet metal guard? Seriously?
How do you crush skulls?

Please show me the characteristic huge swedge of your Kabar tanto on the KM2000. You Kabar also has a belly on the primary edge while the KM is completely straight.

If you are honest you would admit that the German Knife is in no way a copy of the KaBar.
Which one is better, we can still debate, if you want.

 

[Quiet]

If its 1095 and moisture entered your tang hole, better check what's happening in there. No idea how you get the peened pin out of the KaBars pommel. For sure you'll need more tools than the penny to open the one screw on the KM2000.
Where do you place your thumb for delicate tasks? On this straight sheet metal guard? Seriously?
How do you crush skulls?

Please show me the characteristic huge swedge of your Kabar tanto on the KM2000. You Kabar also has a belly on the primary edge while the KM is completely straight.

If you are honest you would admit that the German Knife is in no way a copy of the KaBar.
Which one is better, we can still debate, if you want.

There is no debate. You're asking questions that don't have any place in 99.99999999% of owners' use cases. How will I crush skulls? What? A better question would be, have you ever seen a coated blade (as both the Kabar and the KM2000 are) develop rust on it? I'd love to see that if you have some sort of proof. If not, then the idea that "OMG, water might enter the tanghole and cause rust!" is a nonissue. As for delicate tasks, I'd use the Kabar the same way I'd use the KM2000 (real answer: not at all LOL) but they both have crossguards, and thus somewhere for my thumb to go.

Also, you keep going on about a swedge. Oh no, the KM2000 doesn't have a swedge, you're right, the two knives can't possibly look anything alike.

The fact is, these two knives look very alike, except the cheaper one (that would be the Kabar by a huge margin) has very similar ergonomics (I can't understand how you'd argue that given the handle shapes are highly similar), much better steel, and is made here (which matters to some folks).

It amuses me that your big argument point is how easy it is to remove the handle.

 

[JJR512]

At this juncture, I'm forced to consider the strong possibility that you work for Eickhorn, possibly in some sort of market analysis role, and you've been asked to ascertain why the US isn't buying much of your company's product. The answer is simple. We have plenty of companies here in the US that make products that blow all I'm seeing from Eickhorn out of the water. Sorry, it's just how I see it. It's also a valid answer to your question. Congratulations on your company winning the Bundeswehr contract.

Have you ever found that you liked something, and realized that very few other people you know like it, or even know about it? Did you then wonder why that was? That's all this is. Now I'm not going to bother to respond to your accusation directly, as we both know there's practically no way to prove it. For that matter, I could accuse you of being a Kabar employee, putting in pro-Kabar comments whenever an opportunity arises.

Ok, I just went back and did a split second's worth of research. Are you really contending that I'm wrong for comparing the Kabar to this Eickhorn, when the street price for the Kabar is a little more than a third of the KM2000's price (as you stated), and on top of that, features a superior steel? Really? Come on, now. 440A stainless against 1095? LOL No. Not sure how "cultural differences" could play into it, when the two knives I compared look very similar.

No, I didn't say you were wrong to compare them. I said it was wrong to assume that Eickhorn copied Kabar, unless you have evidence to the contrary. No, you're not wrong to compare them; in fact, comparing them kind of goes to the heart of what I'm asking. If you compare them and list the reasons why the Kabar is better, well that could be a valid reason why Eickhorn has never gotten much toe-hold here in America. And that research might be easy for you, but I don't know the differences between all the steel types. But for the record, if you had done a full second's research instead of just a split's, you might have turned up that the KM2000 is now made of N695 steel. And I still don't know how that compares to 1095, or even 440A, although I assume it's an improvement over 440A.

 

[t1mpani]

If its 1095 and moisture entered your tang hole, better check what's happening in there. No idea how you get the peened pin out of the KaBars pommel.

You don't disassemble them. If you're really worried about it, when it's new, mix up some epoxy and seal the joint--it's extremely easy to wipe off the excess for a very clean job, and then nothing will ever get in there. That said, I have hidden tang, non-stainless knives from the 19th Century which still miraculously seem to be holding together. For that matter, the coil and leaf springs on my old truck have been flexing and bending under two tons of weight for almost thirty years now and show no signs of giving up the ghost. Perhaps the horrible dangers of rust are a tad exaggerated...

Where do you place your thumb for delicate tasks? On this straight sheet metal guard? Seriously?

You really wouldn't have done well back in the stone-tool days, would you? Observe:


This grip is comfortable and works wonderfully. The last grip, with a finger hooked over the guard, works extremely well for pulling cuts such as splitting the sternum on a deer.

How do you crush skulls?

With the force of reason.


Okay, it's late....enough of this obscure German tanto foolishness!

 

[JJR512]

I forgot! I do own an Eickhorn! I was given a German Expedition knife by a very well-intentioned person who knew I loved knives and wanted to get me something special, and bought the most expensive knife she could find at a cutlery shop in Texas. I still have it somewhere---the ergonomics of the "handle" are absolutely atrocious--has been commented on by every single person that has ever picked it up--but I've thought from time to time about making some scales for it. In its case, the steel is not bad (D2) though not as well suited to the size/design of that knife as other alloys would be.

Just out of curiosity, which model is it? I have a minor interest in obtaining one or two specific Eickhorn folders.

 

[Quiet]

You really wouldn't have done well back in the stone-tool days, would you? Observe:

Thank you. I considered trying to explain how I'd use my Kabar with its guard, but you did it better than I would have.

 

[JJR512]

I am speaking of this one. It's a superior knife for (far) less money than the KM2000.

http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/12

I do like the Kabar tanto knife, except for the spine of the blade. Is it sharpened? Why would it be? I'd prefer am unground spine. I already own a Kabar USMC model, and was thinking if getting the tanto model to compliment it...I just don't like the spine. I do like Kabar handles, though.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

@Quiet

Glad you agree that the geometries of the blades are different. (mega swedge and some belly on the Kabar):thumbup:

Lets look at the handles.

I can see the numbers of groves are the same. Did you mean only that?
Guard and pommel are worlds apart. And if you look at different pictures from different angles you will see that the Kabar grip is more round whereas the KM grip is more flat on the sides. Its easier to see if you actually buy one Just joking of course.

Blade coatings are supposed to stay? Mine never do. I guess I'm using my knives. That's why I prefer stainless and easy maintenance. I even stripped my blade because I don't want any paint flakes in my food. Its gonna happen and not only if you need some improvised tin opener for example.

Im kidding again, but maybe its even true? the easy disassembly of the German knife could be a requirement due to some excessive recycling laws. Of course you need to separate plastic from metal before throwing it away

 

[t1mpani]

Just out of curiosity, which model is it? I have a minor interest in obtaining one or two specific Eickhorn folders.

Mine isn't a folder. I don't want to post a link to a dealer's page, but if you put "Eickhorn German Expedition knife" into your search engine, you'll find it. Knifecenter has them, for starters. One look at the handle and you'll know what I mean. Seems perfectly designed to break the user's fingers...

As to N695, it's basically Bohler's version of 440C, which is better than 440A in abrasive edge retention due to its higher carbon content, while giving up some toughness and corrosion resistance. Still a very common, inexpensive steel given the price of the knives. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying something has to be the newest, greatest alloy in order to make a good knife, but laser cut, machine-made knives with molded handles that use inexpensive steel and somehow are priced in the hundreds of dollars? Not impressed.

 

[Quiet]

Have you ever found that you liked something, and realized that very few other people you know like it, or even know about it? Did you then wonder why that was? That's all this is. Now I'm not going to bother to respond to your accusation directly, as we both know there's practically no way to prove it. For that matter, I could accuse you of being a Kabar employee, putting in pro-Kabar comments whenever an opportunity arises.


No, I didn't say you were wrong to compare them. I said it was wrong to assume that Eickhorn copied Kabar, unless you have evidence to the contrary. No, you're not wrong to compare them; in fact, comparing them kind of goes to the heart of what I'm asking. If you compare them and list the reasons why the Kabar is better, well that could be a valid reason why Eickhorn has never gotten much toe-hold here in America. And that research might be easy for you, but I don't know the differences between all the steel types. But for the record, if you had done a full second's research instead of just a split's, you might have turned up that the KM2000 is now made of N695 steel. And I still don't know how that compares to 1095, or even 440A, although I assume it's an improvement over 440A.

That was a comment on my part, that's all. You are taking what was a comment on my part, and taking it personally. So, that was one of the reasons why I surmised that you might be an employee of Eickhorn. I didn't state that it was an exact copy. My actual comment was:

Speaking of looking boring, that KM2000 looks like a Kabar Tanto knockoff, honestly.

That's what I said. So, let's not get this twisted into where I asserted that this German knife you're in love with was in fact a copy of a Kabar knife. Ok?

N695 is just another stainless steel. 1095 is known for its high durability, and edge maintenance. There's a reason why companies like ESEE, Ontario, Kabar, and so on, use them for fixed blade knife steels. So again, in my opinion, that's just another point in the Kabar's favor (or really, any other 1095 steel knife). And honestly, you mention I might work for Kabar? Actually, let's take this in another direction. TOPS Knives. Made in America, all 1095 steels, and if I had $160 to spend and needed a combat knife, I'd be looking at their offerings waaaaaaayyyyy before a cheaply made and overly expensive knife from Germany.

Now then. Another reason why these Eickhorn knives might be unknown here is because they aren't answering any questions people have asked, unless there are people asking "Where can I get an import knife that's supposed to be for combat, which costs far more than knives (that have better steel) made right here?" I'm unaware of.

Moras? They DO answer a question that people asked, namely one of wanting a razor sharp, inexpensive, no-frills carbon steel blade for camping/hiking/bushcraft chores. That's why Moras are very well known, and very well regarded here. Is what it is, man. Anyway, listen. Enjoy your Eickhorn, I truly hope it does everything that you wanted it do when you put the money down.

Just don't expect many folks here to bite at that price point.

 

[Quiet]

@Quiet

Glad you agree that the geometries of the blades are different. (mega swedge and some belly on the Kabar):thumbup:

Lets look at the handles.

I can see the numbers of groves are the same. Did you mean only that?
Guard and pommel are worlds apart. And if you look at different pictures from different angles you will see that the Kabar grip is more round whereas the KM grip is more flat on the sides. Its easier to see if you actually buy one Just joking of course.

Blade coatings are supposed to stay? Mine never do. I guess I'm using my knives. That's why I prefer stainless and easy maintenance. I even stripped my blade because I don't want any paint flakes in my food. Its gonna happen and not only if you need some improvised tin opener for example.

Im kidding again, but maybe its even true? the easy disassembly of the German knife could be a requirement due to some excessive recycling laws. Of course you need to separate plastic from metal before throwing it away

What amuses me is by showing these two pictures, all you did is show me that the two grips are very nearly the same in shape. And the bottom of the guard difference is mimimal at best. As for the top, if you're doing the sort of prolonged cutting with either of these two knives where that thumb ramp made a big difference, frankly, you should be doing it with another knife, since these two knives are clearly meant for combat tacticool use. Those two knives aren't going to feel very different at all, and only someone attempting to argue on semantics is going to disagree. Hey, just joking of course.

 

[JJR512]

Mine isn't a folder. I don't want to post a link to a dealer's page, but if you put "Eickhorn German Expedition knife" into your search engine, you'll find it. Knifecenter has them, for starters. One look at the handle and you'll know what I mean. Seems perfectly designed to break the user's fingers...

Ok, found it. Not a big fan of the knife in general. As for the handle, I can't tell just from looking at this particular handle if I'd like it or not, but I suspect the large holes would be annoying to me.

 

[A Justice]

I think your question (and the answers your getting ) do not address the real issue. Eickhorn is a known brand of knife in circles that track military issued knives and combat applications of such. If you're asking why Eickhorn isn't widely talked about on Bladeforums?? consider 2 lesser known brands that have become staples on BF - Busse and Himilayan Imports. Both have paid to open forums, both have several moderators and representatives, and both have developed a following over several years. Busse has recently enjoyed a big surge from the Walking Dead, but they've had a strong presence here for years. It's a result of marketing more than anything (forget the quality of the knives, where they come from, what they look like). Go to other knife forums and you will see other makers enjoying a strong following. A good example would be custom makers like Jeremy Horton - he has a large following on other forums where he has an active presence, but here he has a manufacturer forum that is pretty much dormant.

Eickhorn has government contracts obviously, so their business isn't as dependent on developing a wide reaching fan base among civilians. Their designs, marketing and actions are representative of other companies in similar situations - Colt has only recently started to move toward developing their products for the civilian demand, but have enjoyed a strong reputation in the U.S. because they had our country's most visible weapons contract; I'm guessing in Germany Eickhorn is as well received as Ka-Bar (it's kind of telling that someone actually said "Why don't you just get a Ka-Bar?).

 

[Jens Schuetz]

What amuses me is by showing these two pictures, all you did is show me that the two grips are very nearly the same in shape. And the bottom of the guard difference is mimimal at best. As for the top, if you're doing the sort of prolonged cutting with either of these two knives where that thumb ramp made a big difference, frankly, you should be doing it with another knife, since these two knives are clearly meant for combat tacticool use. Those two knives aren't going to feel very different at all, and only someone attempting to argue on semantics is going to disagree. Hey, just joking of course.

Cool. :thumbup:Now we are down from the KM 2000 being a "Kabar Tanto knockoff" to the idea that they might only "feel very similar". :thumbup:
Glad enough that I could convince you of that, no need for an apology to Eickhorn since they are probably not reading here anyways if they don't even answer customer questions.
They answered mine once when they told me that they would recoat my old army knife but sending it over there was too much and now I'm not into coatings anymore anyways. I probably still would be if I would have many knives with stainmore steel.

What did they copy here? The feeling of an AK Bayonet? Cable cutter and backsaw look awfully familiar
Don't joke about the grinding job. Somebody "helped" me there and probably did better than I could have done back then...

 

[Quiet]

Cool. :thumbup:Now we are down from the KM 2000 being a "Kabar Tanto knockoff" to the idea that they might only "feel very similar".:thumbup:
Glad enough that I could convince you of that, no need for an apology to Eickhorn since they are probably not reading here anyways if they don't even answer customer questions.
They answered mine once when they told me that they would recoat my old army knife but sending it over there was too much and now I'm not into coatings anymore anyways. I probably still would be if I would have many knives with stainmore steel.

Don't joke about the grinding job. Somebody "helped" me there and probably did better than I could have done back then...

An apology? I wasn't offering one. Your response makes me think you had the same reading comprehension issues JJR did. Frankly, Eickhorn should be apologizing for trying to sell the KM2000 for what they are. $160? Absurd. No wonder no one here is buying them. That's a $50 knife at most, at most. Cheap stainless steel and a cheap nylon handle? Ridiculous.

 

[JJR512]

That's what I said. So, let's not get this twisted into where I asserted that this German knife you're in love with was in fact a copy of a Kabar knife. Ok?

You quote yourself saying the Eickhorn is a knockoff of the Kabar, or looks like one, but then you say that you're not saying it's a copy. Does "knockoff" not mean a cheap copy?

I've never heard of TOPS knives.

And Eickhorn has answered every question I've ever asked them, and I've asked them several. Sometimes, the answers are a bit hard to understand, looking more like they went through Google Translate (from German to English) rather than being written by someone who was actually taught to speak/write English well.

Finally, I will continue to refute your claim that they're "cheaply made". They may not use your favorite steel, but that doesn't mean they have low build quality. The SEK-M I have seems to be a very well-made product. In contrast, all three Kabar USMC models I owned had different profiles at the tip of the blade. And these weren't due to changes made to the design over time, and likely not due to different plants, production lines, or any other credible reason. All three came from the same retailer at the same time, so were likely all part of the same batch. Now why would they have minor variations? They're not hand-made, they're stamped steel, there shouldn't be anywhere near as much variation as what I saw.