Why no love for Eickhorn?

[Quiet]

You quote yourself saying the Eickhorn is a knockoff of the Kabar, or looks like one, but then you say that you're not saying it's a copy. Does "knockoff" not mean a cheap copy?

I've never heard of TOPS knives.

And Eickhorn has answered every question I've ever asked them, and I've asked them several. Sometimes, the answers are a bit hard to understand, looking more like they went through Google Translate (from German to English) rather than being written by someone who was actually taught to speak/write English well.

Finally, I will continue to refute your claim that they're "cheaply made". They may not use your favorite steel, but that doesn't mean they have low build quality. The SEK-M I have seems to be a very well-made product. In contrast, all three Kabar USMC models I owned had different profiles at the tip of the blade. And these weren't due to changes made to the design over time, and likely not due to different plants, production lines, or any other credible reason. All three came from the same retailer at the same time, so were likely all part of the same batch. Now why would they have minor variations? They're not hand-made, they're stamped steel, there shouldn't be anywhere near as much variation as what I saw.

Alright, look man. If you can't understand the difference between the following two statements:

What I actually said: "that KM2000 looks like a Kabar Tanto knockoff, honestly."

What you keep saying I said: "The KM2000 is a cheap knockoff of the Kabar black Tanto."

Then I think we're done here. It has me wondering whether English is your first language, because the meaning (and the difference) behind the two statements is pretty obvious.

"I've never heard of TOPS knives."

Oh look, another huge name brand that everyone on this board knows and you don't know. Ironic, considering you're here demanding to know why we don't recognize your brand from Germany.

"TOPS? Mora? Never heard of 'em, now why aren't more people talking about Eickhorn?!??!"

LOL I'm done here.

 

[JJR512]

An apology? I wasn't offering one. Your response makes me think you had the same reading comprehension issues JJR did. Frankly, Eickhorn should be apologizing for trying to sell the KM2000 for what they are. $160? Absurd. No wonder no one here is buying them. That's a $50 knife at most, at most. Cheap stainless steel and a cheap nylon handle? Ridiculous.

Dude, you want to mention the facts of one product vs. another, that's fine with me. You want to make opinionated statements based on facts, that's fine with me. But if you want to make a personal insult against me, that's not fine with me. I was reading at a college sophomore level in the sixth grade, pal, so if you want to question my comprehension skills, we're gonna have a problem.

 

[JJR512]

Alright, look man. If you can't understand the difference between the following two statements:

What I actually said: "that KM2000 looks like a Kabar Tanto knockoff, honestly."

What you keep saying I said: "The KM2000 is a cheap knockoff of the Kabar black Tanto."

Then I think we're done here. It has me wondering whether English is your first language, because the meaning (and the difference) behind the two statements is pretty obvious.

"I've never heard of TOPS knives."

Oh look, another huge name brand that everyone on this board knows and you don't know. Ironic, considering you're here demanding to know why we don't recognize your brand from Germany.

"TOPS? Mora? Never heard of 'em, now why aren't more people talking about Eickhorn?!??!"

LOL I'm done here.

I understand the difference between the two statements. The second is making an absolute statement, while the first is a statement that, in your eyes, the absolute second statement appears to be true. Yes, I understand the difference between "looks like" and "is". You said it appeared to be, and I said it wasn't. Simple as that.

As you say, the difference in meaning is obvious...as is the implication behind what you actually said. However, if you'd like to question my nationality or native language further, I invite you to question me to my face. I'm in the Baltimore, Maryland area; send me a PM when you're in the area, and I'll PM you back with the address of my residence or workplace, your choice.

As for your final comment, well obviously I've heard of Mora. I mentioned them in my original post. (But you still want to question MY reading comprehension ability, right?) But as I also mentioned previously, I'm not really a big knife nut. Everything I mentioned in my original post, about how I got interested in knives in the first place, took place within the last two years. I've only ever bought maybe two or three knife magazines, and I've never spent much time on knife websites or forums like this one until just recently. And then only to research a particular model, to see if there were many negative comments about a particular model I was interested in buying. I really don't know much about knives, including who all the reputable or respected brands are. I just know there's one brand in particular that I like, so I was asking here why nobody else does, and after filtering out all the crap, I think I've gotten some good reasons. But I still like them anyway. And looking at the list of manufacturer's forums here, I don't see one for TOPS. In fact, I only recognize about half of the names there, and of those, I doubt I'd be able to identify many of their products if you showed me unlabeled photos of them. It's really only Kabar, Becker, Emerson, and Eickhorn that I've spent much time looking at their websites, looking at the different models. I could probably identify the random SOG, Cold Steel, or CRKT model, but that's about it. All the knives I own are from Kabar, Becker, Eickhorn, Gerber, or Smith & Wesson.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Dude, you want to mention the facts of one product vs. another, that's fine with me. You want to make opinionated statements based on facts, that's fine with me. But if you want to make a personal insult against me, that's not fine with me. I was reading at a college sophomore level in the sixth grade, pal, so if you want to question my comprehension skills, we're gonna have a problem.

Don't be so defensive, he's just trying to yank your chain.
If you have time for this you can choose some representative pictures and start a new thread with a poll ("copy or not"). No idea what would be gained but might be fun and if you are lucky the discussion in here would go away from showing that its no "knockoff" to your original question. However I have a feeling that Quiet will still find a way to be very verbal about something else.
Maybe that's what Eickhorn is lacking. Fanboys. As was said earlier, if they are more engaged here they might gain a few.

 

[JJR512]

So I was just looking up TOPS, and was on their website. They seem to have quite a large variety of oroducts. The FDX Mini Axe caught my eye, although to be honest, I'm not sure what I'd use it for. But that's never stopped me from buying something before... Their Steel Eagle line has caught my eye as well, might be taking a closer look at that line.

 

[JJR512]

Don't be so defensive, he's just trying to yank your chain.
If you have time for this you can choose some representative pictures and start a new thread with a poll ("copy or not"). No idea what would be gained but might be fun and if you are lucky the discussion in here would go away from showing that its no "knockoff" to your original question. However I have a feeling that Quiet will still find a way to be very verbal about something else.
Maybe that's what Eickhorn is lacking. Fanboys. As was said earlier, if they are more engaged here they might gain a few.

Thank you... I have a feeling, though, that if Eickhorn wanted fanboys, I wouldn't be very high on their list. I tend to take things a bit too literally, and respond a bit too bluntly, to be a good marketer.

 

[A Justice]

You quote yourself saying the Eickhorn is a knockoff of the Kabar, or looks like one, but then you say that you're not saying it's a copy. Does "knockoff" not mean a cheap copy?

I've never heard of TOPS knives.

And Eickhorn has answered every question I've ever asked them, and I've asked them several. Sometimes, the answers are a bit hard to understand, looking more like they went through Google Translate (from German to English) rather than being written by someone who was actually taught to speak/write English well.

Finally, I will continue to refute your claim that they're "cheaply made". They may not use your favorite steel, but that doesn't mean they have low build quality. The SEK-M I have seems to be a very well-made product. In contrast, all three Kabar USMC models I owned had different profiles at the tip of the blade. And these weren't due to changes made to the design over time, and likely not due to different plants, production lines, or any other credible reason. All three came from the same retailer at the same time, so were likely all part of the same batch. Now why would they have minor variations? They're not hand-made, they're stamped steel, there shouldn't be anywhere near as much variation as what I saw.

There is a reason that German manufacturing is held in high regard. Have you ever handled an HK pistol like the one pictured in the OP? I would say that they're the most refined, consistent, and tightest tolerances on any comparable pistol under 1500$. I don't own one, but after finally getting to shoot one a few weeks back I may buy one soon.

I would like to see what the tang looks like on those knives - also, it's clear by looking at the product photos that the Eickhorn is a higher quality knife. The fastener in the handle, the lanyard hole, the pommel, the guard, the blade finish and the overall blade geometry are all indicative of a more exacting and robust knife - which is important when they're going to be issued to soldiers in the field. It isn't surprising that the grinds on the Eickhorn are more refined - like I said, German engineering and all.

Then you have to consider that the Eickhorn KM 2000 is the product of a modern Military contract. The economics are much different than they were when the Ka Bar was developed, and competetive militaries are willing to pay more for something like a knife these days. Boehler steel is great too - it's consistent and I prefer Boker's N695 to their 440C after sharpening a few knives for a friend last year that came with uneven edge grinds (assuming that they have equal edge holding and wear resistance, since I didn't use the knives for very long). Of course, I like exotic steels as much as the next person, but 440c is a proven stainless steel that many top makers still prefer today.

The rest of the world isn't a bent on getting Crucible's newest super steel as we are here at BF. Stainless steels like 440c, N690 and 154 CM make exceptional cutting tools, and can be found in knives that represent a wide price range. I wouldn't hesitate to trust a knife that the German Militarty has tested extensively - and even though they don't have the reputation on BF, German engineering has always commanded a premium. Heckler & Koch, Mercedes, Porsche, Bosch, Audi, and the list goes on.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Thank you... I have a feeling, though, that if Eickhorn wanted fanboys, I wouldn't be very high on their list. I tend to take things a bit too literally, and respond a bit too bluntly, to be a good marketer.

I studied marketing and I don't know if I am better at it now, after finishing my MBA. At least I still fall for it often enough. Maybe I'm still too much of an unsuspecting engineer?

Anyways, not a real fanboy either. Got the new KM2000 (clipped Tanto with tiny swedge) for a very uncommon reason which would not apply to the usual potential target group.
The 2000 was the offspring of the knife I had in the military, otherwise I would have not known about it and thus never bought it. Even if I would have known, with so many options out there I usually go by reviews and since Eickhorns has almost none they would most likely not have gotten my money. Anyways now that I have it I like it for many of the well engineered details, which Eickhorn doesn't even mention on their homepage. Their whole marketing is not what I would like to see. Take the pictures at their homepage http://www.eickhorn-solingen.de/epages/62631327.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62631327/Products/825101 the knife pictured only from one side (nobody could tell if it not maybe a chisel grind) and then a dark picture of the sheath. Nowhere an explanation on the advantages of the steel or how the sheath works and why the guard is cool etc.

I can only conclude that they don't want to market to informed and interested individual internet customer of today, or they don't know how?
If they don't know how and actually read this here is my advice --> Give more pics and information on your homepage and do stuff so that people go to that page in the first place.
I guess this is as much worth as what they have paid for it.

Just in case Quiet is reading this still. For camping with wood work I don't like my Kabar tanto or my KM2000, they are too balanced and chopping feels powerless. In a pinch kind of ok but if I have the choice then I prefer my BK9 or a Kukri from HI.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

I would like to see what the tang looks like on those knives -

Give me a minute

edit:
done. Disassembled the KM 5000 (was just the first I found and has the same tang) with a coin in under a minute, took pictures and reassembled it even faster.
Pictures are still uploading

edit 2:
here they are

 

[A.L.]

"Dissassembling the knife for maintenance".. I never got this. To me it just means "knife put together as quick as possible so that it's cost effective" and as customer it means "bent screw and knife rattling". Just my arrogant opinion.

 

[flatface77]

Give me a minute

edit:
done. Disassembled the KM 5000 (was just the first I found and has the same tang) with a coin in under a minute, took pictures and reassembled it even faster.
Pictures are still uploading

edit 2:
here they are

Stainless haters take note of the steel. Eickhorn uses mostly carbon steel (55SI7) run relatively soft in the fixed blades with these handles (not sure what the product line is called). I looked in vain for a stainless version of one of the models I wanted. My FS2000 is also 55SI7.

I believe this company made an early version of the Glock Field Knife & make the Bundeswehr's current issue knife. The original incarnation of Eickhorn made bayonets over a century ago. I remember spending a weekend guzzling coffee & wallowing in the minutae of old Eickhorn bayonet stamps after I decided on a whim to start collecting bayonets. I seem to have slept off that notion. For now.

 

[rajincagin]

I've never heard of them either, thanks for the heads up. Looks like something a tactical guy like myself could get a lot of use of.:thumbup:

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Gentlemen, there is altogether too much personal bickering going on here. I will close the thread if I see any more of it, specifically from Quiet and JJR512. Discuss the knives, not what you imagine about each other.

 

[Larry Turko]

I bought my KM 2000 in Munich in 2007. It's a no nonsense military knife that offers a very secure grip and in my opinion looks about as mean as a tanto can look. The sheath is molle compatible. I believe it's actually issued to German troops. I like a lot of Eickhorn's military models and would have more if there was a Canadian dealer.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

"Dissassembling the knife for maintenance".. I never got this. To me it just means "knife put together as quick as possible so that it's cost effective" and as customer it means "bent screw and knife rattling". Just my arrogant opinion.

Never heard of any bend screw. Did you just make it up?
Wouldn't it be easier to replace than a bent pin?

Anyways your "arrogant opinion" sounds at least plausible until you think about it a bit more.

What is easier?
To make a handle with such tight tolerances that it doesn't rattle and there is no play to bend the screw?
Or
To allow for play and simply fill the gap with epoxy?

I think the first approach (Eickhorn's) shows better workmanship and machines and moldings with high accuracy are not cheaper than epoxy and pins. It also gives the user the added benefit of easy disassembling. That you personally don't need it, is probably fine with the guys who appreciate it.

If maintenance is beyond you what do you think about people who disassemble their knives and spread the parts over different suitcases in order to prevent theft?
Can you build a better spear with the big oval handle still attached or with the flat tang?
What it your grip breaks and you need to get the blade out to attach some makeshift handle? And so on. With at least a little bit imagination or reading around in BF you could understand some uses.
Still not saying that you have to do any of these but I believe "getting it" is not that hard. Is it?

 

[Murindo]

My F'S 2000 came dull as butter knife

 

[leghog]

...Eickhorns are not "tacticool"; they are tactical. They aren't designed to look cool to people with no tactical needs; rather, they're designed to be functional for people with legitimate tactical needs...

Joe Knife Owner really has no tactical needs. Using Mora as a contrast, they better fill the needs of Mr. Average Knife Owner, aka Joe.

 

[Quiet]

Gentlemen, there is altogether too much personal bickering going on here. I will close the thread if I see any more of it, specifically from Quiet and JJR512. Discuss the knives, not what you imagine about each other.

I'll do my best. JJ's personal threat against me scared me so bad, I should probably stay out of this thread. I wouldn't want him to beat me up because his reading comprehension leaves him in a bad spot.

(Yes, I'll freely take the red-card I'm almost certain is coming. It's a supreme bitch move, and a sure sign that you've lost a debate, when you have to resort to "OH YEAH! WELL COME SAY THAT TO MY FACE!" as a response. What are we, in grade school? The guy still proved that he was unable to separate the difference in context of the statement. "I know what you meant, but instead, I'll still keep addressing you as though you said the other statement I'm trying to pretend you said." Lame. )

 

[Quiet]

Give me a minute

edit:
done. Disassembled the KM 5000 (was just the first I found and has the same tang) with a coin in under a minute, took pictures and reassembled it even faster.
Pictures are still uploading

edit 2:
here they are

Also, one screw holding the handle on? For a blade that is arguably designed for hard use? LOL That is a terrible design, in my opinion. I can't believe you actually pulled the "Well, German engineering is known for being awesome" card. I actually laughed. Anyway, I'll take my infraction and bow out. I've said all I felt was needed to say.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I will close the thread if I see any more of it, specifically from Quiet and JJR512.

I'll do my best. JJ's personal threat against me scared me so bad, I should probably stay out of this thread. I wouldn't want him to beat me up because his reading comprehension leaves him in a bad spot.

(Yes, I'll freely take the red-card I'm almost certain is coming. It's a supreme bitch move, and a sure sign that you've lost a debate, when you have to resort to "OH YEAH! WELL COME SAY THAT TO MY FACE!" as a response. What are we, in grade school? The guy still proved that he was unable to separate the difference in context of the statement. "I know what you meant, but instead, I'll still keep addressing you as though you said the other statement I'm trying to pretend you said." Lame. )

What am I, chopped liver? Quiet wins the thread. He is the toughest of all the tough guys here.

Closed.