Why no super steel?

tiguy7 said:
You have to hunt a bit, but the stuff is out there. The G Sakai Trekker has a ZDP-189 main blade. The Terravantium Terrain 365 has a Dendritic Cobalt blade, and the LionSteel Roundhead has an M-390 blade. The MKM Malga 6 also has an M-390 blade. I enjoy my premium blades as much as I do the electric starter on my car.View attachment 1881095View attachment 1881093View attachment 1881094
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I don't know what the top one is in the second picture but it sure is a good looking spear point jack.
 
Generally a traditional slip joint knife is used in a light duty mode and usually doesn’t need to have high edge retention of a super steel. I’m mainly talking about sub 3 inch blade size. There are some larger size traditional blades with 3.5 -4 inch but I’m guessing a majority carry a smaller size.

That’s why I carry both a small/medium stockman and a modern folder, 3.25 inch blade with better edge retention. I sometimes run into a more demanding situation that I have to cut some tough, dirty materials and a smaller traditional just won’t cut it but my single blade modern knife will.

If you carry only a slip joint you’re limited in what you can achieve just by the design of a slip joint and a super steel will help but maybe not enough. So I believe it depends on what your needs are and if you carry more than just one knife.
 
Lesknife said:
Generally a traditional slip joint knife is used in a light duty mode and usually doesn’t need to have high edge retention of a super steel. I’m mainly talking about sub 3 inch blade size. There are some larger size traditional blades with 3.5 -4 inch but I’m guessing a majority carry a smaller size.

That’s why I carry both a small/medium stockman and a modern folder, 3.25 inch blade with better edge retention. I sometimes run into a more demanding situation that I have to cut some tough, dirty materials and a smaller traditional just won’t cut it but my single blade modern knife will.

If you carry only a slip joint you’re limited in what you can achieve just by the design of a slip joint and a super steel will help but maybe not enough. So I believe it depends on what your needs are and if you carry more than just one knife.
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The steel doesn't hold you back from heavier duty cutting. The design of the knife does but I think that's what you were trying to say there right? Certainly you aren't trying to rationalize that just because it's a slip joint that it should inherently have bad wearing steel? There are people out there that do expect and require a steel that performs to a certain level of expectation and are willing to pay for that performance.

I personally don't like the term "super steel" it's a collector and marketing term imo. I mentioned AEB-L in my earlier post. It's kinda popular right now but the reality is that it's been around for a long long time. A2, I love A2. It's a great performer. Easy to heat treat. Relatively cheap. Not a new steel by any stretch of the imagination. Magnacut, my personal favorite. New steel. Makers can achieve pretty remarkable hardness levels with it considering its chemical makeup but for me personally that's not why I like it so much. I pretty much follow the recommended HT recipie and shoot for a 62 - 63 hrc simply because people smarter than me have done the research and have found that that is the sweet spot for wear resistance, toughness and corrosion resistance. I'm finding on my personal magnacut knife that edge retention or wear resistance is flat out outstanding! Corrosion resistance is as well. I'll never really be able to speak to the toughness because it's a slip joint but that doesn't mean I should sacrifice the attributes that are important for this steel. So when a client gets a Magnacut built knife from me and they spend a pretty chuck of change they can be confident that it'll hold its edge a long long time even with moderate to heavy use and pretty much never corrode even if the user is unable to clean for long periods of time and after all that still have a beautiful piece of art that will last several lifetimes if used properly. I like both A2 and magnacut for their ease of edge maintenance as well. Both are fairly easy to sharpen and take an amazing edge.

Anyway, sorry for the long rant. I do think that steel selection by both production and custom makers alike is important and it should be expected by the clients. Don't settle guys. Expect and demand better. You'll get better knives for it in the long run.
 
If I have a tough cutting job.... carpet, boxes, drywall, fiber board.... heck I don’t grab a folder with some great steel... I grab a utility knife with replaceable blades. Those are made to do things that will destroy an ordinary knife regardless of steel. Swap blades and go again. $10 bucks gets you a big ol’ pack of blades. My guess is they ain’t super steel either.
 
JM2 said:
If I have a tough cutting job.... carpet, boxes, drywall, fiber board.... heck I don’t grab a folder with some great steel... I grab a utility knife with replaceable blades. Those are made to do things that will destroy an ordinary knife regardless of steel. Swap blades and go again. $10 bucks gets you a big ol’ pack of blades. My guess is they ain’t super steel either.
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They can be! :thumbsup::D

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JM2 said:
If I have a tough cutting job.... carpet, boxes, drywall, fiber board.... heck I don’t grab a folder with some great steel... I grab a utility knife with replaceable blades. Those are made to do things that will destroy an ordinary knife regardless of steel. Swap blades and go again. $10 bucks gets you a big ol’ pack of blades. My guess is they ain’t super steel either.
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I think the same thing every time I read about people breaking down cardboard with their pocket knives... I always thought that was the job of a utility knife.
 
JohnDF said:
I think the same thing every time I read about people breaking down cardboard with their pocket knives... I always thought that was the job of a utility knife.
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I tried for the longest time to breakdown cardboard boxes using my folders (Spyderco, Cold Steel, SOG, Hinderer). It did the job but needed to touch up the edge just about every time I used it on the cardboards. Then, I got a great deal on a pack of utility knives (I think two knives for $8 that came with couple dozen cheap blades).

The cardboards don't stand a chance even when the utility blade has dulled and chipped lol. I have to agree with JohnDF JohnDF and JM2 JM2 on this one...utility knife does much better for this job then any pocket knives in my opinion.

I also have to wonder how many people really want to perform HEAVY duty cutting tasks with their 3" blades that 1095 can't handle?
 
JohnDF said:
I think the same thing every time I read about people breaking down cardboard with their pocket knives... I always thought that was the job of a utility knife.
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We are of the same mind. If there is a task one has to perform routinely, it makes sense to carry the tool best-suited for that job. I carry a SAK every day because I *might* need to turn a screw. If screw-turning was something I did daily, I’d carry a screwdriver instead. If I regularly cut boxes, I’d carry a box cutter.
 
JohnDF said:
I think the same thing every time I read about people breaking down cardboard with their pocket knives... I always thought that was the job of a utility knife.
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I broke the tip off a #6 Opinel, so I modified the rest down to a super coping blade with an easy open notch. The blade is about an inch and a half long now. Best box knife I have ever had.
 
joeradza said:
afishhunter afishhunter I know very little about steels and their advantages or disadvantages but I’m pretty sure there are no edges with obtuse angles. If I remember correctly, an obtuse angle is greater than 90 degrees. Correct me if I’m wrong Gary 5K Qs 5K Qs .
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afishhunter said:
"Obtuse" in that 30 to 60 degrees inclusive or greater are not as acute/fine/thin as 20 to 25 degrees. The higher the included angle is, the "duller" an edge is, and the less time before it fees dull/holds a working edge, and needs sharpened.

A straight razor was usually sharpened to between 4 and 5 degrees per side/8 to 10 degrees inclusive. Compared to a straight razor, my 20 degree inclusive edges are "obtuse".

While 89°~90° may not technically be "obtuse", if that is the included edge on a blade, I sure wouldn't want to have to use it. Would you?

You are correct. Mathematically 30 to 60 degrees isn't "obtuse". However, depending on the application and use, it is. 😊
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Alan is correct, and I think Steve agrees, that in mathematical terminology, "obtuse angle" refers to an angle that measures more than 90˚. And I think there's less chance of someone misunderstanding someone else's meaning if the terms "obtuse" and "acute" are reserved for their mathematical meaning when applied to angles in ANY context. I'd rather have someone say a 20˚ angle is "more acute" than a 60˚ angle, rather than saying the 20˚ angle is "less obtuse" than the 60˚ angle (since neither angle is obtuse at all).

I don't know enough about various edged tools to know if there are any cases of edges with angles greater than 90˚. If you sharpen at 50˚ per side (and I can certainly imagine holding a blade at that relatively steep angle), you'll end up with an obtuse 100˚ inclusive angle. Maybe that's something you want on your machete that you're using to hack out a bunch of roots - I have no idea.

- GT
 
Primble said:
I have two 50 packs like this in my toolbox. Use the right tool for the job.
I put hard use on my utility knives, not my folders. :thumbsup: ☺️ I learned that lesson many many moons ago.
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These are the blades I used to use to cut the pins of a GEC or Case knife for blade deletes and recovers. They go through brass and NS like butter. Lol
 
5K Qs said:
I don't know enough about various edged tools to know if there are any cases of edges with angles greater than 90˚. If you sharpen at 50˚ per side (and I can certainly imagine holding a blade at that relatively steep angle), you'll end up with an obtuse 100˚ inclusive angle. Maybe that's something you want on your machete that you're using to hack out a bunch of roots - I have no idea.
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I  had a Grohmann 350S. They recommended (and ground at the factory) a 50 to 60 degree per side (100 to 120 degree inclusive) edge angle!
Why, I have no idea. The blade steel was 1.4116, which I  know will take a 10 degree per side edge angle.

I gave that knife away. I didn't want to spend the hours it would take, or wear out the diamond plates my guided rod sharpener uses to put a useable edge on it. With the factory edge it wouldn't sharpen a pencil. I don't have any, so I don't know if it would sharpen a Crayola et-al crayon or whittle a crayon.
A shame, really. Other than an unusable edge angle on both blades, it was a nice knife. Great fit and finish, walk n talk ... butt incapable of cutting room temperature (in summer without air conditioning) butter. ☹️
Only excuse I could/can think of for such edge geometry is liability attorneys worried someone would cut themselves, and sue the company.
 
Signalprick said:
I love magnacut and have made a handful of knives with it so far. My personal edc that I made myself last December was my first magnacut knife and I am just really in love with the steel as a daily driver. CPM154 is nice but I truly hate working with it. Even after normalizing the steel it's still hard on cutting tooling compared to normalized magnacut and the A2 tool steel I use. I'd like to give AEB-L a try. Some have reported warping with it but generally that isn't an issue with smaller thinner parts if you do your homework. It's also an older stainless steel and very inexpensive. For production shops it probably comes down to cost, availability and HT procedures. For custom makers like myself, who knows? Maybe just a matter of comfort using 1 steel or a "this is the standard" mindset? Not really wanting to push ones self or try new things as far as material selection goes? Hard to say. I am glad magnacut was introduced shortly after I started making. As a new maker at the time I wasn't pigeon holed into a certain way and my openness to learning afforded me the opportunity to research the steel and actually try it out. From there I learned that I prefer its characteristics compared to what is considered the standard for pocket knife ss.

I've just about used up all my CPM154 and have a lot of Magnacut to work with. That and A2 with be my primary focus going forward in steel selection and I'm excited for it.
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Jason,

The Magnacut steel intrigues me. The composition of this steel does not indicate anything special at first glance but it looks like it's possible to get both toughness and abrasion resistance with it. Probably a matter of balance more than of amount.

I always have favored tougnness to abrasion resistance but not only. Geometry cuts and i like the keen edges and the low sharpening angles (10° per side) 1095 and O1 steels can take. On those points i've always been disapointed by high alloy steels.

So i have two questions if you don't mind.
Do you think the Magnacut steel hardened at, let say 60 HRC, could take such a low angle for tasks like wood whittling without other damages than the usual edge rolling?

Could this steel get an edge keeness comparable to the one it's possible to get with 1095?

Dan.
 
dantzk8 said:
Jason,

The Magnacut steel intrigues me. The composition of this steel does not indicate anything special at first glance but it looks like it's possible to get both toughness and abrasion resistance with it. Probably a matter of balance more than of amount.

I always have favored tougnness to abrasion resistance but not only. Geometry cuts and i like the keen edges and the low sharpening angles (10° per side) 1095 and O1 steels can take. On those points i've always been disapointed by high alloy steels.

So i have two questions if you don't mind.
Do you think the Magnacut steel hardened at, let say 60 HRC, could take such a low angle for tasks like wood whittling without other damages than the usual edge rolling?

Could this steel get an edge keeness comparable to the one it's possible to get with 1095?

Dan.
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Dan,
From a layman's understanding and experience Magnacut will outperform 1095 in all categories. I will provide the link to Larrin Thomas' writing on the subject steel for your reference and here is a direct quote from the article in which it was compared directly with 1095 in a chopping test. I would see no reason with Magnacut to lower the hardness to increase toughness to rival 1095. It will do that easily with the recommended HT recipe while sacrificing nothing in wear resistance from my understanding. Hope this helps.

"Shawn compared a knife head-to-head with an ESEE 6, a knife known for its excellent toughness, made in 1095 steel. In chopping and batoning of wood both knives performed well with no loss in sharpness. The big difference came in the nail chop test where the 1095 had significant deformation; a typical resharpening was unable to take the edge back. Significant edge repair is necessary. However, the MagnaCut knife had only minor edge damage and was back to shaving sharp quickly."

 
afishhunter said:
"Obtuse" in that 30 to 60 degrees inclusive or greater are not as acute/fine/thin as 20 to 25 degrees. The higher the included angle is, the "duller" an edge is, and the less time before it fees dull/holds a working edge, and needs sharpened.

A straight razor was usually sharpened to between 4 and 5 degrees per side/8 to 10 degrees inclusive. Compared to a straight razor, my 20 degree inclusive edges are "obtuse".

While 89°~90° may not technically be "obtuse", if that is the included edge on a blade, I sure wouldn't want to have to use it. Would you?

You are correct. Mathematically 30 to 60 degrees isn't "obtuse". However, depending on the application and use, it is. 😊
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Sorry to be obtuse, but from what I've read the sweet spot angle for good shaving that is enforced by the geometry of good straight razors is around 15-17 degrees inclusive.
 
JM2 said:
Sounds like magnacut is the bees knees. Does it sharpen on an Arkansas stone?
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No experience personally. All the new knifes that come out of my shop get an edge laid on them with my KME. Oddly, I've only ever used the KME once on a personal knife. I usually just hit my personal blades freehand on my DMT Diasharp diamond stones and strop as needed. I really should get myself a better set of freehand stones maybe but I guess as the saying goes, "if it ain't broke....."
 
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