Why Not Stainless?

Dannyboy Leather said:
Why does it have to be carbon or stainless?
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Because my alternative efforts dismally fail selection. Lovin' the look of yours though. I've had a few goes at doing the flint thing. I live in an area that is riddled with flint rocks. So far my efforts are based on clanging a couple together and hoping to get lucky, and then trying to work some flakes from the product of that. Getting consistent flakes has me completely defeated.
 
My question is this. As most of the folks in here seem to be users of knives as opposed to collectors, why would you really care if your knife didn't stay super shiny silver? The reason that I like carbon is that I forge and it is easier to maintain....as in keep it sharp.....than stainless. When you are talking about normal steels and not uber-expensive high tech stainless stuff, I would defy you to find any readily available stainless that gets sharper than my beloved W2 does at 50-61 Rc without chipping out. Hey...if a hack like me can get a scary sharp edge on a W2 blade that is tough and stays sharp for a while, then there must be something inherently right about the stuff....lol
 
For me it has nothing to do with being shiny and everything to do with climate. The watchwords here are damp and drizzle. Other places on earth and my priorities change. It's the same with the rest of my kit. Gortex and down are fantastic, but most of the time here I'm in Buffalo clothing. Fenix and so on make fantastic torches but most of the time I reach for a super-bright Underwater Kinetics dive torch. In sum, much of my kit is geared toward being amphibious. Some of the simple carbons I've seen need real babying after a few hours of that let alone a few days. I can't do the nursemaid thing, I'll dump kit that doesn't work for kit that does. Go somewhere else and my selections are likely to be very different.
 
Quiet Bear said:
Not previously mentioned... carbon being softer allows for the ability to hit the spine of the blade against a sharp rock to generate a spark.
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Quiet Bear, forgive me...I, and many others, have learned that heat-treated cutlery steel will not generate a spark with rocks. When you use flint and steel, the steel is broken off in tiny pieces -- glowing hot from the friction. You can use standard tool files found in hardware stores because they are soft and easily "flaked off," but the myth of using a knife blade with a rock is just that: a myth. Plus, doing so would potentially destroy your primary tool.

I just wanted to point that out as FYI.
 
jdm61 said:
My question is this. As most of the folks in here seem to be users of knives as opposed to collectors, why would you really care if your knife didn't stay super shiny silver? The reason that I like carbon is that I forge and it is easier to maintain....as in keep it sharp.....than stainless. When you are talking about normal steels and not uber-expensive high tech stainless stuff, I would defy you to find any readily available stainless that gets sharper than my beloved W2 does at 50-61 Rc without chipping out. Hey...if a hack like me can get a scary sharp edge on a W2 blade that is tough and stays sharp for a while, then there must be something inherently right about the stuff....lol
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my point exactly! i completely agree.

Brett
 
Brian Jones said:
Quiet Bear, forgive me...I, and many others, have learned that heat-treated cutlery steel will not generate a spark with rocks. When you use flint and steel, the steel is broken off in tiny pieces -- glowing hot from the friction. You can use standard tool files found in hardware stores because they are soft and easily "flaked off," but the myth of using a knife blade with a rock is just that: a myth. Plus, doing so would potentially destroy your primary tool.

I just wanted to point that out as FYI.
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This is not a myth! The spine of a carbon steel knife will absolutely make sparks when struck on a flint stone which is much harder than the steel including stainless! Stainless doesn't work for reasoning of the alloy which is misunderstood by those who believe the hardness has something to do with it. Any way just take a look at Thomas j elpel's writings and you will see the knives he has worn the blades nearly off of building fires with them and in fact Thomas Claims that he has taught many people to build fires with their pocket knife and can do so in only a few minutes! He also stated that it was easier for him to start a fire with his pocket knife and a flint stone than it is using matches! By the way files are very hard and thats why they flake when struck against a flint stone.
 
I only have one knife in 01 and never had a big rust issue and it was in Peru on a week long survival trip. It had small spots of rust but nothing a little sandpaper would not get out.
A natural patina from use but no real rust spots. It was wet too.
IMG_6754.jpg


I personally like C3PO and OB1-BENKANOBI steel the best.
 
baldtaco-II said:
For me it has nothing to do with being shiny and everything to do with climate. The watchwords here are damp and drizzle. Other places on earth and my priorities change. It's the same with the rest of my kit. Gortex and down are fantastic, but most of the time here I'm in Buffalo clothing. Fenix and so on make fantastic torches but most of the time I reach for a super-bright Underwater Kinetics dive torch. In sum, much of my kit is geared toward being amphibious. Some of the simple carbons I've seen need real babying after a few hours of that let alone a few days. I can't do the nursemaid thing, I'll dump kit that doesn't work for kit that does. Go somewhere else and my selections are likely to be very different.
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+100 to this,pretty much what I was going to say,but eloquently. For what it's worth in my limited collection I find the stainless stuff generally outperforms the carbon steel in terms of edge retention and sharpness.

YMMV
 
I like forged knives with differentialy heat treated blades, so most of my fixed blades are carbon steel. Plus I like how the patina starts building up with use, which has nothing to do with real performance but is something I enjoy a lot. It makes the blade feel "alive".

I've got lots of good stainless knives, in fact a few years ago I thought stainless steels (good ones, of course) were much better than carbon and I was worried about maintenance. My first good carbon steel (well, D2 actually) knife changed that, it was made by Scott Gossman and its still one of my favourite users.
 
sdt11670 said:
This is not a myth! The spine of a carbon steel knife will absolutely make sparks when struck on a flint stone which is much harder than the steel including stainless! Stainless doesn't work for reasoning of the alloy which is misunderstood by those who believe the hardness has something to do with it. Any way just take a look at Thomas j elpel's writings and you will see the knives he has worn the blades nearly off of building fires with them and in fact Thomas Claims that he has taught many people to build fires with their pocket knife and can do so in only a few minutes! He also stated that it was easier for him to start a fire with his pocket knife and a flint stone than it is using matches! By the way files are very hard and thats why they flake when struck against a flint stone.
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sdt11670, I suggest you try it for yourself and then decide. I think you'll find that this is a myth. If he's using old soft steels, perhaps with some effort he might get something. And, if he wore that much off his blade, it's probably due to so many unsuccessful attempts. Plus, why would anyone in their right mind do that to their primary tool?

Best lesson I can offer is this: you must personally verify ANYTHING and EVERYTHING you read about survival by practicing it, before accepting or trusting the information. Your life may depend on it.

That includes elpel's writing, my posts, and everything in between and around them.
 
I think the key point is that carbon steel are generally easier to sharpen resharpen in the field.

Plus they are generally better in general performance (toughness mostly, edge-holding-to-ease-of-sharpening...) but that would be only second.

The spark from rock thing is difficult enough with a proper steel so don't expect too much from a knife. Plus apart from plain carbon steel such as 10xx, most common alloyed steel such as A2, 3V, L6, D2... have too much alloy to get any spark.
 
"He also stated that it was easier for him to start a fire with his pocket knife and a flint stone than it is using matches!"

I'd be wary of anyone claiming that even against the best rods we have now and a bit of hacksaw blade. If it were a first to light 10 contest, with all other materials being equal , I'd take that bet and his money.
 
baldtaco-II said:
"He also stated that it was easier for him to start a fire with his pocket knife and a flint stone than it is using matches!"

I'd be wary of anyone claiming that even against the best rods we have now and a bit of hacksaw blade. If it were a first to light 10 contest, with all other materials being equal , I'd take that bet and his money.
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Yeah, Baldtaco-II, I'm also trying to be polite and respectful of Thomas Elpel while refuting his claims, but they are quite fantastical.

I have learned that many survival "experts" write about something they were taught by another, but never personally tried themselves. They just trusted the information because they trusted the source, not realizing it's a wives-tale passed down.

sdt11670, please understand this is no way meant as disrespect to you. I have trusted information that I thought was solid, until it was debunked by a) my dirt time, and/or b) someone else demonstrating the reality that destroys the myth. I just am trying to make sure you and everyone else don't get convinced by anyone else's writings or teachings without your own verification. That includes anything I or anyone else posts here. As Ronald Reagan said, "Trust, but verify."

OT: It's the criteria of a good survival school: can the teachers demonstrate their claims and prove them reliable, and do you get the dirt time to practice and succeed while still at the school (which is good!)? Or do they just take most of your time lecturing in a classroom with very little dirt time and just try to get you to take their word for it (which is bad!)?

If either of those two first qualities are missing from a school, either run away ahead of time or demand a refund. A Standard wilderness course that keeps you in the classroom the majority of the time is expensive. You can learn that material from books without spending thousands of dollars.

It's only the dirt time alongside an expert instructor, and on your own, that makes you become proficient in wilderness skills.

Sorry, that was a digression, but relates to the topic of dispelling myths.

Back to our regularly-scheduled stainless steel discussion!
 
"Yeah, Baldtaco-II, I'm also trying to be polite and respectful of Thomas Elpel while refuting his claims..."

Me also. My native self just reads a self-declaration of a man incompetent at working matches. ;-)

"sdt11670, please understand this is no way meant as disrespect to you."

Snap! There's a world of difference between believing in error and makin' it up. To be mistaken is no crime. All good.
 
Brian Jones said:
Quiet Bear, forgive me...I, and many others, have learned that heat-treated cutlery steel will not generate a spark with rocks. When you use flint and steel, the steel is broken off in tiny pieces -- glowing hot from the friction. You can use standard tool files found in hardware stores because they are soft and easily "flaked off," but the myth of using a knife blade with a rock is just that: a myth. Plus, doing so would potentially destroy your primary tool.

I just wanted to point that out as FYI.
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Brian, I respectfully disagree. I strike the back of my mora against a sharp rock (as you would a file) and consistently catch a spark to char cloth which I in turn blow to flame in a tinder bundle. High carbon such as 1095 is soft enough to break-off a piece of steel where stainless is not. It does rough up the spine a little, but does not damage. I have also done this with my Queen Cutlery folder in 1095 and several other high carbon knives. Cody Lundin turned me on to how do it and he has been using the same mora for over a decade with no ill effects. Here is a picture of how I hold the knife and rock. I usually put the char cloth under my thumb on top of the flake. I made an 8 sec. video (2.54 MB) using a mora and a piece of chert (not the hardest rock either) if someone knows how I can post it for free I will, or email it to you. This is a viable fire starting method, but it takes practice like anything else. Peace, Chris

 
Quiet Bear said:
Brian, I respectfully disagree. I strike the back of my mora against a sharp rock (as you would a file) and consistently catch a spark to char cloth which I in turn blow to flame in a tinder bundle. High carbon such as 1095 is soft enough to break-off a piece of steel where stainless is not. It does rough up the spine a little, but does not damage. I have also done this with my Queen Cutlery folder in 1095 and several other high carbon knives. Cody Lundin turned me on to how do it and he has been using the same mora for over a decade with no ill effects. Here is a picture of how I hold the knife and rock. I usually put the char cloth under my thumb on top of the flake. I made an 8 sec. video (2.54 MB) using a mora and a piece of chert (not the hardest rock either) if someone knows how I can post it for free I will, or email it to you. This is a viable fire starting method, but it takes practice like anything else. Peace, Chris

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QB, you should be able to post the video on Photobucket for free. I have used the site many, many times for photos and once for video. Have never had an issue with them nor any spamming from them.
 
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