Why secondary and micro bevels?

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fluidsteel said:
Nice, Scandi grind O1 testing coming up!!!!!!!!! :thumbup::D

It's nice to see you're taking advice and having field testing done. Of course field testing is so easy, even a monkey can do it. ;)
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Why would a rational person test anything that was repeatedly designed and fabricated by tested and proven methods? Test what?

01 tool steel
Peter's heat treat
if a scandi bevel works
I already know what works in terms of knife design

Test? Test what? Test if "testing" is a marketing scheme aimed at mall ninjas?

I am in complete agreement with you on one point you made though: "Of course field testing is so easy, even a monkey can do it."
 
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BMK said:
Why would a rational person test anything that was repeatedly designed and fabricated by tested and proven methods? Test what?
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The reasons are too many to list, but to help improve performance and to ensure consistent performance are a couple. I can assure you Peters Heat Treating tests a lot of what leaves their shop, even though they do it the same every time they get a new batch from a customer. Look close and you may find some hardness test dents in your blades.
 
BMK said:
Why would a rational person test anything that was repeatedly designed and fabricated by tested and proven methods?
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Only a fool would think that past performance ensures future performance.

Simply emulating methods that have a record of success when used by others will not ensure quality.

The concept of quality control and continuous quality improvement developed because people realized that quality is not something that just maintains itself.

You can't assume quality.

I already know what works in terms of knife design
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Then why did you start this thread?

Test if "testing" is a marketing scheme aimed at mall ninjas?
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Testing = mall ninja? Wow.

Then I guess every maker I know is a mall ninja. Spyderco, and all the other major factory knife manufacturers must be mall ninjas too.
 
Hmmmmm,

Mall ninjas? MallNinja.jpg

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

OMG I didn't think they were real!!! Ooh lah lah.... A new market to sell knives to.:rolleyes:

I like you more every day Jeff. Thanks!

Brian
 
Mitchell Knives said:
Only a fool would think that past performance ensures future performance.

Simply emulating methods that have a record of success when used by others will not ensure quality.

The concept of quality control and continuous quality improvement developed because people realized that quality is not something that just maintains itself.

You can't assume quality.



Then why did you start this thread?



Testing = mall ninja? Wow.

Then I guess every maker I know is a mall ninja. Spyderco, and all the other major factory knife manufacturers must be mall ninjas too.
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You can make any process as simple or as complicated as you want it to be. I like simple.

I started this thread to answer a question that I was unable to answer myself. In my judgement, that question remains unanswered.
 
BMK said:
You can make any process as simple or as complicated as you want it to be. I like simple.

I started this thread to answer a question that I was unable to answer myself. In my judgement, that question remains unanswered.
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Why secondary and micro bevels? Some knives work better that way. Some people prefer to grind them that way.
 
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Daniel,

Thanks for your response.

Who says it works better? Better is a pretty broad term - "it works better" at what? With all this professed testing going on one would think there would be some data?

Let me know when you find a secondary bevel on any woodworking tool or machine. Woodworkers are serious about material separation, are you?

Doesn't it strike you as odd that every tool you use to make your secondary beveled knife has a single beveled cutting edge?
 
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BMK said:
Daniel,

Thanks for your response.

Who says it works better? Better is a pretty broad term - "it works better" at what? With all this professed testing going on one would think there would be some data?

Let me know when you find a secondary bevel on any woodworking tool or machine. Woodworkers are serious about material separation, are you?
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We may have different opinions on which is better, I like both. If you think one is better you are entitled to your opinion.

I was answering your question... secondary bevels exist because they are prefered by some people. Some knives work better that way, it is a fact.
 
I still feel you are not genuine in your lack of understanding.

Do you really not get it or do you just get off on starting trouble?
 
So.....

A couple things.

I hope NOBODY takes Jeff seriously.

Also, a few things about Jeff that I Hypothesize.... One, Tracy's spot on about OCD.

It's like my Ex-wife... No matter how many times you told her that the vitamin bottles don't need to be stacked from big to small,(she'd also buy based upon the circumference..) she truly believed her way was best. Hence the O-1 Tool steel, Scandi Grind, Peter's Heat treat repeats.....

Jeff likely believes that his way is best, and can't see anybody else's viewpoint.

Also, look at the threads with his shop pics. Super clean. No dust on the KMG... Another sure sign of OCD. :p

He's quite possibly a Taurus... They are typically very stubborn and change only comes when put upon them.(I know, I am a Taurus!)

OR.... He's simply an ass....

I honestly think He's just a little quirky like the average knifemaker, possibly with a tendancy towards being a pot stirrer.

THE POINT I'M MAKING IS.... DON'T LET HIM GET TO YOU!!!

:D:D:D:D:D
 
Daniel,

Thanks again. I would think that they are "preferred" because most people don't do things that they do not "prefer". Why do people prefer them is a more precise question. Again, with all this talk of professed testing one would think that there would be piles of data on the most fundamental elements of blade design - the fact is, there is no data.

This fascinates me:

Doesn't it strike you as odd that every tool you use to make your secondary beveled knife has a single beveled cutting edge? Some of the stuff here is so incredibly counterintuitive its funny.
 
BMK said:


Let me know when you find a secondary bevel on any woodworking tool or machine. Woodworkers are serious about material separation, are you?
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Really??

I have over 20 hand planes in my wood shop and well over 50 chisels, some are modern and some are over 40 years old, all of them have a primary and micro-bevel. On average the primary is about 25 degrees and the secondary is about 10 degrees. If you try to use a chisel on hardwoods like maple without the micro-bevel, the edge doesn't hold up.

-John
 
BMK said:
Daniel,

Thanks again. I would think that they are "preferred" because most people don't do things that they do not "prefer". Why do people prefer them is a more precise question. Again, with all this talk of professed testing one would think that there would be piles of data on the most fundamental elements of blade design - the fact is, there is no data.

This fascinates me:

Doesn't it strike you as odd that every tool you use to make your secondary beveled knife has a single beveled cutting edge? Some of the stuff here is so incredibly counterintuitive its funny.
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I see your fascination but like I said, different strokes for different folks.
 
Go hack on something that will chip a scandi edge... fix the chipped area with a microbevel and see if it still chips. I bet it will be less likely to chip because the edge will be thicker and stronger.
 
Some have micro-bevels. None have secondary bevels of the size seen on knives.
johnnym said:
Really??

I have over 20 hand planes in my wood shop and well over 50 chisels, some are modern and some are over 40 years old, all of them have a primary and micro-bevel. On average the primary is about 25 degrees and the secondary is about 10 degrees. If you try to use a chisel on hardwoods like maple without the micro-bevel, the edge doesn't hold up.

-John
Click to expand...
 
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