Why Should I learn ........?

Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

ilmarinen - MODERATOR
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Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Recently there has been some discussion about folks who use a different methodology than the prescribed standards. This has lead to a lot of emails, and brought back some old discussions about Art vs Science, This technique vs That technique, Unusual HT regimens vs Book metallurgy, etc..

In one email a member asked, "Why should I learn metallurgy, if I am just doing XYZ and the results are OK."

The answer is from the Dalai Lama - "Learn all the rules , so you will know how to break them properly."

You can't think outside the box until you know the boundaries of the box. This will also tell you which sides of the box can be exceeded, and which can't. It may also tell you that the box is there for good reasons....the space station is just a box, but I wouldn't think anyone there would want to be "outside the box".

By learning modern metallurgy, proper forging/grinding, and how to assemble a knife strongly .... you will understand how to "bend" these rules. In knifemaking, breaking these rules usually results in a lesser quality knife, but if you decide to go that route, at least you will know what to expect
 
Thank you for reminding me of one of my favorite quotes.

"Those who set to rapid and ready practice before they have learned the theory, resemble sailors who set to sea without a rudder"
LeoNardo De Vinchi
 
Boxes are for small children. Anyone older than 2 wants what is in the box, whereas the toddler is contented to play with the box.

:)
 
Well said (or rather typed), Bladsmth. :) When I first started out, I mustv'e browsed this forum for a month before feeling confident enough to buy some tool steel, probably because I learned about what can go wrong before finding a success story - and even found some books on metallurgy at a few hole-in-the-wall bookstores, which I still open and take notes from all the time. I haven't reached the walls of the box quite yet, but it's mostly about the journey rather than the destination for me. :D
 
I don't have any problem at all with people reaching outside the box. I do have an instinctual mistrust of people who make up their own box and refuse to explain their parameters.
 
james terrio said:
I don't have any problem at all with people reaching outside the box. I do have an instinctual mistrust of people who make up their own box and refuse to explain their parameters.
Click to expand...

This happens all too often. I continue to learn every time I forge or grind. Heck, without this forum I would be just happy making normal things. Then I see someone thinking outside my "box," and I think. "Hey, lets try whats in their "BOX." It may not always work, but at least I pushed the sides a little wider.
 
Well said, even when, or especially when I have a failure I learn from it. Ever so little we all push the edge of the envelope, or box.
 
james terrio said:
I don't have any problem at all with people reaching outside the box. I do have an instinctual mistrust of people who make up their own box and refuse to explain their parameters.
Click to expand...

HaHa James! :) That was probably one of the best and most concise rebuttals to a lot of the "garbaldi gook" that we see pop up around here. :thumbup:

***the above was something my Papa Wickert used to say all the time when referencing someone who blabbered a lot without saying anything of substance... i.e. incoherent nonsense.
 
A person just starting out will learn much faster and with fewer side trips if they have a basic understanding of the craft. Apprenticing at an established shop or attending classes such as the ABS sponsors is an excellent way to start.
 
I hate nonsense.. I like to work within normal procedures. I may try a little of this and a little of that but I stay within a small threshold. We all learn from mistakes but you still have to figure out what mistake you made to learn from it. By flying to loosy goosey you never know what the heck you are doing. For me im just just starting to feel confident in what I am doing so I like to stay within predictable results.
 
james terrio said:
I don't have any problem at all with people reaching outside the box. I do have an instinctual mistrust of people who make up their own box and refuse to explain their parameters.
Click to expand...

In another email I was asked what the quote was I said a while back that applies to folks with their own "box". The quote was:
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but no one is entitled to their own science."
 
bladsmth said:
Recently there has been some discussion about folks who use a different methodology than the prescribed standards. This has lead to a lot of emails, and brought back some old discussions about Art vs Science, This technique vs That technique, Unusual HT regimens vs Book metallurgy, etc..

In one email a member asked, "Why should I learn metallurgy, if I am just doing XYZ and the results are OK."

The answer is from the Dalai Lama - "Learn all the rules , so you will know how to break them properly."

You can't think outside the box until you know the boundaries of the box. This will also tell you which sides of the box can be exceeded, and which can't. It may also tell you that the box is there for good reasons....the space station is just a box, but I wouldn't think anyone there would want to be "outside the box".

By learning modern metallurgy, proper forging/grinding, and how to assemble a knife strongly .... you will understand how to "bend" these rules. In knifemaking, breaking these rules usually results in a lesser quality knife, but if you decide to go that route, at least you will know what to expect
Click to expand...

The post of the year!!!
 
NickWheeler said:
HaHa James! :) That was probably one of the best and most concise rebuttals to a lot of the "garbaldi gook" that we see pop up around here. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

It took me about twenty minutes to pare that down to two simple sentences. Concise ain't always as easy as it looks :D

bladsmth said:
In another email I was asked what the quote was I said a while back that applies to folks with their own "box". The quote was:
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but no one is entitled to their own science."
Click to expand...

And it bears repeating :thumbup:
 
bladsmth said:
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but no one is entitled to their own science."
Click to expand...

I often get annoyed when people talk about science (any science) as if it is absolute and unchanging. Science is anything but that. Once something achieves that dormant state it ceases to be a science and becomes a religion. Sure, once we understand how things work we can become a bit complacent and sure of ourselves because so many applications have proven that the science is sound... until there comes the one that proves otherwise, and we are forced to reexamine our core assumptions.

Metallurgy is really no different from any other science. It has a long history, and we've come a very long way, but we aren't done with the journey yet.

- Greg
 
Agreed Greg. Science is a way of using logic to figure out a process, and logic is nothing more than a way to go wrong with certainty. Not saying it's not rite or even useful, but some people believe there's nothing new to learn. I remember reading a quote from a metallurgy book that was printed well over a 100 years ago, "There are pores in steel and when quenched the pores shrink making it become hard" I'd say we've moved a bit beyond THAT concept. I know we know more now than ever before, but there is still plenty to learn.

[Television] won't be able to hold on to any market it captures after the first six months. People will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night.
- Darryl F. Zanuck, head of 20th Century-Fox, 1946.

History is replete with scientist that were wrong about something and defended there theories with the vigor of a mother bear protecting her young.

Me, I don't try to re invent the wheel, just find out what works for me and my shop, and make any improvements I can when I can.
 
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