Why so many High-end knives with plain Frame/Liner locks?

cm_bushman said:
Sorry about the Demko reference guys, I was just researching the Tri-ad lock the other day, I'm chocking it up to a brain-fart.

I'm not saying Frame/liner locks are bad, or that they aren't in fact the best choice, these things are partly subjective and I only have my personal opinion. I'm sure Chris Reeve and co. know plenty more about it than me, and I'm not bashing any of the knives or makers I named.

I'm just wondering that, since these locks are so simple, and cheap to manufacture, why they are used on the most expensive knives around? It seems counter-intuitive to me as a consumer, especially now after all of these posts that have given no credence to a liner/frame lock as justifiable in knives of this caliber and price. If what Hardheart is saying is true, then I'm even more suspect of the practice. If a simple lockback on a Spyderco (not even close to the price of a Strider, for example) can outperform a quality liner lock, then excuse me if I find myself less willing to pay top dollar for these knives that a) are weaker than half-priced competition, and b) not ambidextrous or as easy to work like an AXIS or Ball-bearing lock. It just seems like a corner that has been cut, when at this level innovation and the absolute best is expected.

Excuse me if I sounded hostile, as again, I have no doubt in the quality of these knives, it just seems like such well-designed and expensive knives would have a locking mechanism to match the materials and workmanship throughout the rest of the design, rather than some of the cheapest-to-produce and from what I've read overall mediocre locks that are ubiquitous among them. It makes me feel better about my BMs and Spydercos, though.
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There is no other lock construction as simple as a linerlock or framelock, plain and simple.
Why make a lock with more parts than it needs?

If you're going to believe everything that hardheart says about Spyderco's lockback, then you also need to know that Sal says they can make any lock as strong as it needs to be.

You also seem to be judging locks by the single criteria of strength. If you want to do that, then Tri-Ad or Axis is your choice, but they are both proprietary and won't be available in most knives. There are many other important aspects of a lock other than strength though.

Ultimately, there are many knifemakers out there using many different locks.
Choose a reputable maker and whatever lock they use will be strong enough, otherwise they should not be making knives.

A knife is much more than just a lock. :)
 
Bushman, if lock strength is such an important issue to you, try a fixed blade. I hunt, fish both fresh and salt water and dive, I use, not carry around to open letters but use a knife on a regular basis. Hunting includes managing our families hunting land planting food plots, bush hogging, over seeing timber operations, more or less farming and a linerlock and or framelock folding knife has been sufficient with no lock problems in relation to failure or excessive wear. Linerlock and or framelock folding knives around our place are used for skinning and cleaning squirrels, rabbits, deer, ducks/geese, etc. again no problems. I am not nor do I play a black ops tango down operator on the forums, just a real world knife user trying to help shed some light on the subject for you.

Your axis lock may run circles around my linerlocks or framelocks in some workshop or laboratory testing but guess what in the real world or at least in my real world my knives get used for work. Not once has the need arisen to put a knife in a vise and hang several hundred pounds of weight of it, just has not happened. Maybe it will one day but until that time comes I think I'm safe. What I'm saying is a locking folding knife is merely a safety and or convenience deal
and obviously real world knife usage given the amount of folding framelock and linerlock in circulation ala your question. Apparently that is all is really needed in terms of lock strength in for the overwhelming super-majority of knife users.
 
How strong does a framelock or linerlock lock need to be? The lock isn't the only part of a folder that is subject to stress. Most of these knives are held together by tiny stainless screws threaded into thin liners. How robust is the pivot? How is the stop pin secured?

Do you really need your folding knife to be able to handle 150+ lbs? 200+ lbs? Did the tests involving these weights conclusively prove that the point of failure was the frame or liner lock, and not the other components that might have affected the overall integrity of the knife after the stress was applied? How much force should my folder have to take, if I'm cutting apart boxes or zip-ties? How about when I'm slicing up limes or cutting off bra straps (taken from another thread regarding the uses for a gentleman's knife)? Does the little titanium linerlock on my Gayle Bradley Air need to be able to withstand 150 lbs of force? Why? Tri-ad locks are probably the strongest locks available, and unless you're getting a custom from AD himself, your choices are limited to some butt-ugly and cumbersome knives.

Variety is the spice of life, and I'm fine with the selection of knives available with framelocks or linerlocks. I'm more concerned about how well my knife cuts, how long it does it for, and how good it looks while doing it.
 
Great and fresh points on an old debate. Locking mechs are probably the most interesting aspects of knives to me, being a mechanical nerd. I'm actually less concerned with brute strength of locking mechs than I am their long-term reliability and their resistance to long-term wear. I think that's where the Axis in particular shines.
 
hardheart said:
Nah, this is the quote, and you'll notice the caveat - http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?24676-sal-strongest-lock&p=299272#post299272
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I was talking about this more recent quote - Lock-strength-debate.

sal said:
Considering the question of "what is the strongest Lock". There is no speculation. We have broken hundreds of locks thousands of times. We have no problem getting our minds wrapped around it. We have also learned that "opinion" is of litttle value.

We record the breaks, the numbers, dates, etc.

I believe Deacon, Unit and others expressed why is not a realistic question. "How high is up"?

While some have mentioned; preferences, reliability, engineering, accidental unclocking, etc. Absolute strength of a lock cannot be determined without scientificly testing of said locks and they must be broken to find their limit.

In our testing, we have learned that we can make any lock as strong as we choose to. Make it bigger, harder, tougher, etc. To say that one style of lock is superior by design would be very difficult to prove, considering we can make any lock as strong as we choose to.

For our design purposes, we classify locks into a number of categories with regards to ultimate strength. This is decided when the knife is designed. Based on that decision, we select materials and sizes.

Light duty = 25 - 50 inch/lbs per inch of blade length.
Medium duty = 50 - 100 inch/lbs per inch of blade length.
Heavy duty = 100-200 inch/lbs per inch of blade length.
Very heavy duty (MBC) = over 200 inch/lbs per inch of blade length.

You seem to suggest that it is difficult to "get your minds around" the question. Perhaps you need to get your mind around the fact that there is no answer to your question.

Is the Axis lock, the way it is made by Benchmade stronger than the Triad lock as made by Cold Steel? No problem.

Is the Walker Linerlock stronger than the Reeve Integral Lock? Foolish question.

What kind of a lock do you want and how strong do you want it to be?

sal

----------------------------------------------------------------

Have knowledge, will share
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Have they gotten a frame lock into VHD range? The framelock Military is engineered for the same strength as the linerlock. It seems the biggest issue is the cutout. It can be eliminated, such as in STR's or Greco's locks with no relief cut, but then the lock release becomes impractical. You can make the lock stronger, but you can also make it hard to use. Cold Steel's production triad is an example of that. A custom Demko with the much smoother surfaces still requires a deep depression of the lockbar against a high rate spring (14 lbs once quoted), but is lighter.

Increasing the strength of a lock is easier when it doesn't require large changes to the spring, or to eliminate the spring tension as part or keeping the lock in place, mimicking a deadbolt.
 
hardheart said:
Have they gotten a frame lock into VHD range? The framelock Military is engineered for the same strength as the linerlock. It seems the biggest issue is the cutout. It can be eliminated, such as in STR's or Greco's locks with no relief cut, but then the lock release becomes impractical. You can make the lock stronger, but you can also make it hard to use. Cold Steel's production triad is an example of that. A custom Demko with the much smoother surfaces still requires a deep depression of the lockbar against a high rate spring (14 lbs once quoted), but is lighter.

Increasing the strength of a lock is easier when it doesn't require large changes to the spring, or to eliminate the spring tension as part or keeping the lock in place, mimicking a deadbolt.
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I was only ever trying to say that things aren't as simple and obvious as you say they are.
The reality is that it's almost impossible to directly compare different locks and absolute strength isn't the only way of judging a lock.

It has been an interesting conversation though. :)
 
I don't judge a knife by lock strength anyway, unless I was buying just for that. Steel properties also aren't all that important for my day to day activities. I still have collected a lot of information about alloys and heat treating.

I've only broken a few knives, at the blade mostly. Lock strength has nothing at all to do with the thinness of a tip. I did break a lockback at the handle, but it was the cheap plastic (not frn) scales that shattered. Other than that, there's been a few liner and frame locks that wouldn't handle extremely light spine taps. Really, I don't need gorilla strength in my locks. I like ease of use, reliability, and comfort. That's really where I don't care for liner and frame locks. I don't mind liner locks as long as there is enough room to disengage the bar without bothering my thumb. I don't care for frame locks because of the weight and exposed metal scale for any hot/cold/wet conditions and no gloves. I've owned dozens of knives with both locks. They've worked well in almost every example. They just aren't as fast, comfortable, or long wearing as other locks I've personally handled.

I know a frame lock would always be strong enough for what I do. What I never understand is why they often get recommended when people specifically ask for the strongest folding knives. I do fine with 440C, S30V, or really almost any steel used in blades. I just sharpen them when dull. I do own knives with 15V, S125V, REX 121, etc because I like the novelty of having the highest alloyed and/or the highest wear resistant steels. When someone asks for the most wear resistant steel, I don't suggest M390 because it has 'enough' wear resistance. I say this because my view on lock questions is the same. In a request for the strongest lock, I don't say 'well this lock is strong enough'. I try to answer the question as asked with the limited info put out by the people who test and make the product.

When asking what the hardest use knife is, trying to differentiate the advertising and the posts by fans, all I can think to do is to compare blade thicknesses, steel wear properties, steel impact properties, handle materials, and lock designs. It is with this mindset that I view the use of frame locks in knives that people then make posts and videos about being the strongest on the market and worth every penny - calling them beasts, tanks, or indestructible. I think they are strong enough for whatever you need a knife to do, but I also think they won't post the same numbers as other locks when subjected to various tests. The tests don't mimic real life use, but neither does real life use necessitate a 'tank' to begin with. Bragging is generally pointless, so the lock tests that are otherwise pointless at least match up to the bragging rights some people clamor for.

I certainly don't blame the makers for using what is available without worry of trademark or patent problems (or in the case of CRK, what they invented to begin with) But I don't care much for taking the business reality of not having every lock design available to every manufacturer as a sign that the non-proprietary ones used most often have to be the best. I think the expensive and lengthy patent process was used because those other locks are likely also quite good at what they do.
 
I'm left-handed so I prefer the AXIS-Lock from Benchmade. I like that I can open and close it one-handed (either hand) without putting my hand in the way of the closing cutting edge.

As for why manufacturer's use it, if I had to guess (and that's all it is since none of them have told me why) I'd say it has to do with simplicity/cost. Nobody would make something more complicated if it already sells the way it is.
 
I never got why button locks aren't more prevalent. With proper lock geometry a button lock could hold 200 lbs without lock failure. Probably even more with something crazy like differential heat treating the lock face or using a hard steel for the button lock. They also provide very little resistance and are easy to use ambidextrously.
 
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but isn't most knife use against the cutting edge? And that's usually secured against a pin (or thumbstuds) afaik. So shouldn't all of the locking styles should work just about the same? You'd have to be doing a heavy duty stabbing motion to test the lock to failure.
 
I found that the strength of the framelock was good enough, but what I had an issue with was the stickiness, so I add pencil lead to the tang of course, after doing that, if I put very moderate pressure on the back of the blade, I get lock face to tang slipping (lock rock). It was one or the other. Too finicky. Maybe my 0550 and 561 were just bad examples, I don't know.....my Tilt is still OK, but I have lost some faith in the titanium framelock and the high price that usually comes with it. I ordered a AD10 from Demko.....we'll see. I am also thrilled with my Manix II, Para2.., and the mini grip has always been good to me. Not that I will never buy a Ti framelock again, but I don't love that configuration anymore. I wish more makers used the SS insert on the lockface like on the lionsteel sr1. My opinions.
 
I am enjoying this thread. Has there been any testing done on the plunge locks that Hogue uses? Do they rate up there with the heavy duty lock backs, Axis, Compression, Tri-Ad etc?
 
here you go, Allen himself testing the lock and comparing to others

[youtube]yJ1moCHqa6E[/youtube]
 
In the comments on the first video, someone mentioned the first button lock was his Anubis made by CRKT. Makes sense, since he tested two button locks, and CRKT did the Anubis and Pharaoh designs. Might be able to pick out a couple others in the tape outline.
 
hardheart said:
In the comments on the first video, someone mentioned the first button lock was his Anubis made by CRKT. Makes sense, since he tested two button locks, and CRKT did the Anubis and Pharaoh designs. Might be able to pick out a couple others in the tape outline.
Click to expand...

I noticed that most of the knives did fairly well, with the average being well over the VHD mark set by Sal in his tests.
 
I do believe you have to go without the multiplier he used. In the case of the EX01, he multiplied the weight by 3.55 inches. Spyderco's rating goes by pounds per inch of blade length, so you would stick with the 180 for their rating. That's still in the heavy duty range. It would have needed to hold 200 pounds to be VHD, and then Allen's linear inch pound rating would be 710.
 
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