Why tactical knives?

Steve,

The only reason too much is made of the term tactical is that there are makers and colletors who are trying to get their knives looked at as Tacticals.

It's like that nice looking knife in your picture, that is not a tactical knife. What that is, is a very nice hunter or utility knife.
It doesn't make it any better or worse than a "tactical" knife.

That knife being called a "tactical" knife is nothing more than the maker and/or collector trying to jump on the tactical knife bandwagon.

Why not just call it a "hunter"? After all if you were to submit that knife into a judging competion at a knife show, that is what category it would go into.

As for the "rubber meeting the road" comment I made, you are taking it out of context. I was referring to tactical in regards to other type military operations. Such as Theater or Strategic, again simply a term to help define a look or a category.

There is a reason knife shows have categories for their judging. Usually you find:

Hunter
Utility
Tactical
Bowie
Dagger
Folder
Fantasy
Art

These categories are established to help the knife compete fairly against the other knives in that category. This is not to say that a hunting knife cannot have the tactical look.

When custom knives first became a viable commodity, those who made them had to come up with a term to categorize what they made. Hence the Category "Custom" Knives. Are all the knives that are in this category literally custom knives? No. But you had to call them something.

It's the same with Tactical knives. Are they used strictly by those used in tactical operations? No. Could they just as easily be called utlity knives? Yes.

Tactial Knives do have a particular look and to try and force other type knives into that category, really doesn't make any sense.
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson
...There is a reason knife shows have categories for their judging. Usually you find:

Hunter
Utility
Tactical
Bowie
Dagger
Folder
Fantasy
Art

These categories are established to help the knife compete fairly against the other knives in that category...
Click to expand...

Ahhhhhh. I see. I had not thought of the term with respect to institutionalised categories for competition. We are just describing the idea of a tactical knife from different spheres of reference. Which I am sure is the case with many makers of tactical knives today, rather than that they are panhandlers.

Sorry, but I didn't read any of the long and tortured recent threads on Guild standards, has the Knife Makers Guild or the ABS published guidlines for these judging categories?

If they did, it would sure save a lot of misunderstanding around here.
 
Originally posted by larry harley
theres really no such thing as a tactical,knife
only in the minds of walter middies
and the dealers and makers that sell them

u all seem to be talking about
camp knives and killing knives

dress them how want
call them what u will
most camp knives r single edged
most killing knives r double edged

i can put blk spray paint on a machettie or a huntn knife and they r still what they r
how about some serrations or a saw back??
its still a camp knife w serrations
harley
who dont make tactical knives
www.lonesomepineknives.com
Click to expand...

:) :D :)

couldn't say it better :p :p :p

Larry one question, are my double edge bird and trout knives "killing knives?" Well, I guess the fish think so......

I think the definition of tactical knife today means "Knife is stored untouched by human hands in a zipper case in the hope it goes way up in value so one can retire to Florida"
 
Steve,

A couple of things to point out. As this is the custom knife forum and I am a custom knife dealer obviously I was speaking of custom tactical knives. So what K-Bar and Randall are doing are not prevelant here.

Although I am pretty sure that K-Bar now has a synthetic handle.

Steve you seem to be looking at the asthetics of the knife more so than the function.

Quote:

"In the realm of urban knife carry where 95% of tactical knives are carried these days, stabalized wood handles can be tactical. Obviously they are not ideal for training knives, but they make good looking carry knives".

They make good looking handles??? They are spalted Maple and Yellow Pine filled with dye. Nothing more beautiful than a piece of Yellow pine filled with Epoxy and Purple dye. It looks so natural..Come on Steve killing me here.

Steve Quote:

"The term "tactical knife" has long ago taken on a far broader meaning than just a military combat utility/fighting knife. As far back as I can remember, having gotten involved in the high-end knife world only six or seven years ago, the term tactical has been applied primarily to hard-use folding knives, which are the knives that have been driving "tactical" knife popularity. These are knives that are designed for hard outdoor utility and also explicitly for self-defense. I am sure that the knives built back then, and now, by makers like Terzuola, Crawford, and Emerson were being sold primarily to law enforcement professionals who had a need for discreet carry, to citizens with similar needs, and to collectors, more than to active duty military who needed something quite different. So, to me, "tactical knife" means something like the Crawford Kasper Folding Fighter as much as it does a Brend Model 2."

Steve, the term tactical knife has taken on a broader meaning due primarily to makers producing their standard models to look like a tactical knife. As it is easier to change the look of a standard model than it is to come out with a new model.

Facts, most of the "hard use" knives were not made for military and LEO's. Mostly, because they are not allowed to carry knives. In 1988 while in the 101st the word came down that any fixed blade that a soldier (who lived in the barracks) had to be locked up in the arms room. A folder with less than a 4" blade could be carried. Eventually soldiers were told they could not carry their personal knives in the field (Thanks Bill). Most LEO's, even those on SWAT Teams came under similar fire. I had an Swat Member on a team in California return a Walter Brend Model 2, as his Chief of Police felt that Walter's Confederate Flag Logo would be offensive to some.

The HK MP5, SIG P226, 12GA Shotgun, mace and nightstick are not offensive. However, the flag, which could not be seen unless the knife was out, would offend. How many LEO's have to ride with their Shotgun in the trunk? A friend of mine back home, his department does so, as they received a few complaints from the citizens of his town. The felt intimidated and scared when they saw the police ride by with a shotgun in the car.

It is this environment that does not allow Military and LEO's to carry these knives. It is true that some do, but they are in the vast minority.

Also, most people who carry knives for self-defense have limited if any training on how to use a knife for this purpose. This makes them more dangerous to themselves than to an opponent. Not to mention there are some states like Michigan where a knife with more than a 3" blade....you have got some explaining to do...usually during your arraingment!

Obviously with so many tactical knives being sold, the majority of these were going to collector's and remainder were going to those who were users and considered these knives to be EDC's.

Steve your view is that of someone dis-associated with the world of tactical knives as you are a self-confessed "high end" collector. A outsider looking in if you will. Exactly what is the high end you like to buy your knives in?

I'm a little closer to the "tactical" market. Here are few reasons why I feel I have a pretty good idea of what the tactical market is really about.

About 3 1/2 years ago Blade Magazine did an article titled "What is a Tactical Knife". The first two words of that article were "Les Robertson". If you get Bob Terzuola's book on making folders, go to page 4 and look at the two names that as Bob wrote "these individuals helped me define what a tactical folder is". I am one of those two idividuals, the other is my LDC partner Bob Neal.

Add to that 58 tactical knives that were exclusives of either LDC or Vangaurd that have appeared in 3 different magazine (to include a cover) in the last 4 years. Yes, there will be even more to come this year. By the way did you see the article on the new Vanguard TACTICAL Fixed Blades in the current issue of Tactical Knives!!!!

I think you would agree that I have a pretty good idea as to what is and what is not a "tactical" knife.

As I have said before, one's collection is their's to build as they see fit. But don't try to force a Square peg into a round hole.
 
I want everyone to know that I'm not trying to "jump on the tactical knife bandwagon" or trying to get my knives "looked at as tacticals". I've only been referring to the one Keith Montgomery showed as a tactical because that's what I was told it is. No trickery or deception intended on my part at all.

I'm just a poor dumb country boy who makes and sells knives. If someone wants to call it a tactical, a hunter, a utility, a baby Bowie, or a concealable butter knife with a double guard and sharpened clip, that's okay with me. I'm just glad that folks like them and are ordering them.
 
Larry,

Walter Mitty???

Larry and Baindaid man, tell you what let's compare our DD214's and LEO experiene and we will find out who the Walter Mitty is.

If you don't know what a DD214 is and/or you have no LEO experience, then perhaps you are correct Larry, there may be some Walter Mitty types here.
 
Steve,

Buddy you have to get out more.

Quote:

"Ahhhhhh. I see. I had not thought of the term with respect to institutionalised categories for competition. We are just describing the idea of a tactical knife from different spheres of reference. Which I am sure is the case with many makers of tactical knives today, rather than that they are panhandlers.

Sorry, but I didn't read any of the long and tortured recent threads on Guild standards, has the Knife Makers Guild or the ABS published guidlines for these judging categories?

If they did, it would sure save a lot of misunderstanding around here."

The ABS and Guild establish guidelines for what the makers need to do to become part of those organizations.

The ABS hands out Awards every year at the Blade Show. These are in addition to the awards that the Blade Show hands out. Im sure if you contacted the ABS they would be happy to explain to you what the guidelines are. You will note, the word tactical will not come up in this conversation.

The US Knifemakers Guild does not hand out awards. However, individuals such as AG Russell and The Cronk Award.

However, the Canadian Knifemakers Guild doesn't hand out awards, however, they do bring in two people two judge the knives at the CKG Show and hand out awards. Yep you guessed it, Bob Neal and I are the judges for the Canadian Guild Show (we also juge new members trying to get into the US Knifemakers Guild. As well as we jusge at the Blade Show and we do a seminar along with Jerry Schroder on trends in custom knives, but I digress.

To be honest with you, there really are no written guidelines for judges. This has mostly to do with the fact that it is usually dealers, on occasion collectors and even on rarer occasions makers, who are the judges at most custom knife shows.

These people are picked for their knowledge of custom knives and the fact that they have seen more than a couple of knives. Guidelines are not given to the judges as the people picked to be judges usually require none.

Steve, I have judged custom knives at over 90 shows across the country and in Canada. How many shows have you been a judge at?

Of course part of the reason I was asked to judge to begin with was due in large part to the 47 awards my custom knife displays won. Lots of homework there. I was really forced to learn what was a good knife and what was not.

Steve, your whimsical posts are no replacement for experience and knowledge. So please if you are going to reply try to do so with the breadth of your experience in the field of custom knives.

I suspect that the misunderstanding you are having comes from a direct lack of knowledge of the subject matter. So lets examine your "Spheres of reference" and see what we can find out.

List what you like, but here are some area's to look at for guidance.

Which magazine editors call you for your take on the custom market.

Which shows have you given seminars at (to both collectors and makers).

Which magainze articles have you been featured in or quoted in?

Which books have you been quoted in?

Which books have you written regarding custom knives?

Tell me about your best custom knife series to date.

Tell me about how many knives you have designed that have won awards. For my part these were mostly those "high end" knives you like to collect. My best was a Damascus Dagger with a carved lavander Jade handle with a 32 carat Amethyst set in a scuplted Damascus frame. David Broadwell made the knife and it won Best of Show at the Las Vegas Classic. The knife sold for $6,000. See, and you thought I didn't know anything about High End knives.

Ok, well these are some starting points for you. Feel free to fill in factual examples. Not whimsy and/or things you've heard about.

Sadly, I anticipate nothing more than a glib response with no substance.
 
Terry,

I was not implying that you were "jumping the band wagon". You made the type of knife you normally make.

If someone told you that was a "tactical knife" they were mistaken.

As for the "dumb old country boy"...Terry, your not that old, your not that dumb, but you are a country boy and there is nothing wrong with that.
 
I have to give my quick 2 cents here. I tend to speak of my "Tactical Knives" more categorily. Such as "Combat Knife" "Fighter" etc.

The mirror polished thing. I never mirror polish a blade because you can bet the first knife fight I ever got into the other guy would have a gun and when I pulled my knife the flash of light would hit ME in the eyes and i would be double screwed! :D
 
I'm still a bit confused...

Can someone simply lay out the basic criteria for a "tactical" knife?

Les?

I'm sure there's more to it than just micarta or G-10 handles and a bead-blasted or coated blade, right?

I mean, as long as we're getting our panties in a bunch arguing about semantics, let's at least make an effort to define the word "tactical" in the context of knives.

In my earlier post, I suggested a deliberately broad category of versatile, performance oriented knives. That's a start. So let's try to narrow it down a bit so there's no more confusion.

Les indicated that in order for a knife to be tactical, it absolutely can not have natural handle materials. Well, OK. I guess we're getting closer. Now how about size, shape, steel, weight, color...

Anyone?
 
Whatever name that style of knife that I posted of Terry's goes by, I think it is a fantastic design. I realize that it does not fit the definition of a tactical knife, but it does fit in the personal protection classification. Then again, I guess most knives would fit into that class.

Les, I think it is well understood that there are few people in the knife community with your knowledge about custom knives. You need not have pointed it out in the way you did. There are three names that come to mind when I think of people with the most knowledge in their areas of knife expertise. There is you, Paul Basch and Bernard Levine. There are many other that have a tremendous amount of knowledge, but your's are the first three that come to mind. There is nothing wrong in taking pride in your accomplishments and knowledge. You do however, in my opinion, come off as sounding arrogant in the above posts. That you seem to think that these accomplishments and this knowledge you have somehow make you better than those that do not meet the same level of expertise. I doubt that that was the intention of your posts, but to me, they sure came off that way.

Please Les, do not take this as a flame. It is a criticism of what I percieved in what I saw and nothing more.
 
Les,

I don't know what LEOs you hang with, but in 29years of constant exposure to Officers I have never met anyone who was not allowed to carry a fixed bladed knife. When I was with the DODPD standard fair was one in the boot, a small necker pinned to the vest, one in the sap pocket and a multi tool between the cuff cases. And I was considered to be going light.:rolleyes:. I am sure that somewhere out there is some politician trying to disarm LEOs but THEY are in the minoritity. Yes the military is in a poor spot but we did not have to follow regs even when performing the duties of base police.

Oh, none of the knives I carried were "tacticals", the dagger and necker even had wood handles and mirror finishes!:rolleyes:

If I had to pick the knife of another maker to take into a CQB confrontation I would chose a Hossom over some bead blasted brick any day of the week.
 
The one thing that stands out is how the knife "looks". before I became the C.L.E.O. of a very affluent, very political, and very naive small Town, anything that looked "nasty" was considered "tactical". Before I had some "evidence" to use and some real life incidents to make reference to, shotguns were NOT only in the trunks of Police cars, but in LOCKED cases. Any knife that did NOT look like a SAK was considered an "ASSASIN'S TOOL". This photo changed alot for the SLEEPY State of NEW HAMPSHIRE.
Now we carry "tools" that are made to do a particular task, and are readily available. the word 'tactical" now gets applied AFTER the use of whatever it is being used...........wolf
This photo woke up Many people who firmly believed anything "tactical" was reserved for the "Real World"
 
Just a quick Note:
AFTER fumbling with that ^&Y&(*&^ Shotgun case and taking my eyes off my "target", I looked up and WHAM. The knife I used to cut away some of my windbreaker impaled in my chin was a "clipit". Said clipit was taken as "evidence" and was later the ONLY thing I was crticized for. It was FELT the clipit was just a little bit too "agressive looking" and I should NOT have had it clipped to my Boot. If I had not, the dull folder on my gunbelt would have been of no value as I could not even get it open. (Damn nail nick and shaky slippery hands)
So what is "TACTICAL" anyway? I say it's a word used to describe something, and if you are a Tree-hugger or a sheeple, it means "DEATH or KILLING Instrument."
For others, Does "Tactical" simply imply a "look"?....Ira
 
Wolf,

Man, words are at a loss buddy!

All I know is that in our units they did not like the rifle/shotgun being in plain view either. But they mounted them up into the headliner. The only thing I did not like was that they used an electronic release that was clearly labeled on the center control panel.
 
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