Why tactical knives?

Hmm, the tactical knives made by Jerry Hossom and the tactical knife made by Terry Primos are not a 100% match for the definition of "tactical" (whatever that might be)??? Who cares! They look great and I bet they perform great for "tactical" purposes. Common, they are a "tactical knives", not a "tactical hammers" so the use of wood or whatever for the handle doesn't do any harm.
 
I'll just bet that a whole bunch of folks that settled this country would have considered their wodden handled knives as tactical. The function may even predated micarta and G-10;)
 
It strikes me that it might be interesting to have a thread in which some makers can describe why they make what they are calling "tactical knives" the way they do, and what tactical purposes they strive to serve. There certainly has to be more to this subject than colors and textures, wood or plastic.

A clear problem with too narrow a definition is that it retards innovation within the genre. The whole purpose of new ideas is to break conventional molds.
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson
Larry,

Walter Mitty???

Larry and Baindaid man, tell you what let's compare our DD214's and LEO experiene and we will find out who the Walter Mitty is.

If you don't know what a DD214 is and/or you have no LEO experience, then perhaps you are correct Larry, there may be some Walter Mitty types here.
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dear walter
lollololollolol
it didnt take but one post this time ha ha ha
a little touchie ant we les(walter)
if youll go back and read my post u will see i didnt call u a walter mitty but if the shoe fits!!!:)
i called some customers walter mitty
i called u a dealer
someone that produces NOTHING
some one thata makes a liveing selling stuffff
used cars, insurance etc.if i were a dealer i,d write a book too telling people i knew wnat i was talking about
it lends and air of authority to what one says
jim parker did it when he owned case
he made a lot of money off of it
all i did in my post was disagree w your basic premis
so i have incured the wrath of les(walter)
oohoohoh i,m sore a frade
u took my post a little too personal
good buddy
or it hit too close to home
ease up less
bandade man all he did was agree w me
why pick on him
he didnt call u a walter mitty
neither did i really( but its fun)
i can see from your other post that is real important for everyone to think u r the difinitive expert on tactical knives
all hale les the knowledgeable
we know its tru he said so
les take abreak too much tension i yur life
go fishn
dont take bait
chill
i stil love u
as a matter of fact i,d like u to be the mother of my children
xxoo
no such thing as a tactical knife
harley
www.lonesomepineknives



no such thing
theres really no such thing as a tactical,knife
only in the minds of walter middies
and the dealers and makers that sell them

u all seem to be talking about
camp knives and killing knives

dress them how want
call them what u will
most camp knives r single edged
most killing knives r double edged

i can put blk spray paint on a machettie or a huntn knife and they r still what they r
how about some serrations or a saw back??
its still a camp knife w serrations
harley
who dont make tactical knives
www.lonesomepineknives.com
 
Kevin,

I do not take your post as a flame. As Steve Harvey knows my laundry list of accomplishments was aimed directly at him.

Personally, I got tired of people who have limited (at best) knolwedge of an area such as tactical knives. Trying to tell me I don't know what I am talking about. Hence I throw out my credintials every once in awhile.

BTW, thanks for putting me in their with Paul Basch and Bernard Levine.

Ok one more time.

When the custom knife market (or any commodity market) starts to embrace a fad and then make it a trend, a name has to be given to that trend. This is done for no other reason than to give everyone the ability to use a common word that embodies the trend.

It is marketing mineded people such as myself (although I do not take credit for coining the word "tactical" in regards to this category), people such as myself do help to define it. Proof of that has been stated in previous posts, so there is no reason to repeat it.

The word "tactical" in regards to custom knives is a category and knives in this catagory have a certain "look". As such there are not "tactical" knives with mirror finish blades and natural handle material.

Just as one would not find black micarta on a high end art dagger. As these knives are expected to have a particular look.

Just as you do not find titanium pocket clips on most Damascus Folders or presentation grade folders.

This is not to say it cannot be done, but by doing so you have created a hybrid that does not fit into the main category.

Perhpas to clarify what I am writing, get a copy of the new issue of Tactical Knives. As I went through it I did find knives that were not "tactical" knives.

There is an article on Hoot Gibson. The title is "Classic Hunters Never Out of Style". Look at the picture directly below the title, there are three hunting knives, complete with satin finished blades, stainless guards and natural handle material. Note, these are not trying to be passed off as "tactical" knives. Neither by Hoot, the writer or the magazine. Additionally, there are 6 different "classic" pattern slip joints. These feature jigged bone handles. Again, none of these are offered as "tactical" knives.

The next article is on Allen Elishewtiz. Allen is a maker who helped define the tactical folder market. Im sure he would be the first to tell you that the knives in the article are not "tactical" folders. They are however, modified presentation upgrades of some of his tactical models. On page 66 the caption at the bottom says "This may look like an art knife...." The caption goes on to say you could use the knife, if you could stand to scratch it.

Then on page 67 one of Allen's Pharaoh's is pictured, this is captioned as "Allen's straight working model". Note this knife has a satin finshed blade, titanium bolster, frame, lock and clip with black Carbon Fiber scales.

Two knives from the same maker one is categorized as "art" and the other "working".

This is for Steve, on page 10 there is an article on 4 new knives from K-Bar. You guessed it all 4 have black blades and black handle material.

My point to all this as it has been from the beginning, "tactical" knives are a category that have a particular look.

There is a trend to put wood handles on "tactical" knives today. Just as a few years ago there was a trend to put Damascus blades on tactical folders. Next time you go to a big knife show, count how many tactical folders you see with Damascus blades. If you do find any I would guess that the knife was at least a year old, probably older.

Why is that? People who collect tactical type knives eventually get tired of look at black and gray. So they order a knife from their favorite maker with something to make it look different from the other knives in their collection. Same thing has happened with blue G-10, that was trendy for a little while.

The collectors who are modifying their "tactical" knives are those who are ready to move to the next black and gray knife....the Damascus folder.

Tactical knives are not a mission specific knife, as such they are a category.

Terms such as Combat Knives, Fighting Knives and Survival knives get used all the time.

For these knives the truth is they can be any knife. The situation determines what a combat knife is. It's the knife you have on you when the combat starts. Same for fighting and survival knives. These knives are whatever you have in your possession when the fight starts or you are put into the survival situation.

As I was taught in Shop in 8th grade, their is the right tool for the right job. As is the case with "tactical" knives, there are the right materials that will provide you with the "tactical" look.

So in the future, don't dwell on a specific mission when you hear tactical knives, think of a broad category that does have some specific parameters.

Jim Richardson and Jerry Fisk's post are exactly why I wrote the above paragraphs. Guys it has nothing to do with function. Tactical knives range from small neck knives to huge choppers. So, it's not about function, it is about the "look". Yes, G-10, Carbon Fiber and Micarta help define the look.

Jim I suspect the people who settled this country didn't think of their knives as "tactical" knives, mostly because they probably never heard the word. They did, as Jerry pointed out, called them Bowies.

What were these knives called before Jim Bowie got involved? Im certain to the general populus in the 1800's that the word Bowie knife was given to all sorts of big knives, even those that by todays standards would not be Bowies.

Each generation has it's own terms and lexicon for it's hobbies.

Here is one for you, what is an art knife? They have the Art Knife Invitational in San Diego every two years. Beautiful knives, incredible knives, but are they all truly art knives? What is it that defines an art knife. How do these knives differ from presentation knives?

Could tactial knives be art knives? If so which ones? If they can be, do you then change the parameters for that category? If not, why not? What is it exactly that removes tactical knives from the art knife category.

Should be some interesting answers.
 
"who dont make tactical knives"

I think Harley and both Jerry's made some great points. Here we are bogged down with labels again when we are actually talking about knives designed for certain tasks.

Right or wrong I consider the term more of a marketing term than anything else and it has working in several areas. The popularity of "tacticals" has brought a whole group of collectors and users into the fold of custom knives and that has been a very good thing.

The whole "defensive knife" thing has always brought a smile to my face since I doubt there is not much more than a handfull who hang around here who have a use for and could actually use a knife in a defensive manner that would hold up in court. Lets face it our knives are really utilitarian tools. I would bet that few of us (less than 1%) will ever be in a position to use a knife defensively. I do not have the training so the tool I would prefer in a defensive situation would be a .45. :D.
 
It seems two definitions are coming out here: the typical "tactical" as advertised by makers and manufacturers, which has a certain look and feel to it: black coated, and/or non-reflective surfaces, and all that stuff. Most people who are civilian customers seem to think of these features as the defining "tactical" ones. Military-type knives were/are made this way to protect from the elements and to keep a reflection from giving away position to the enemy. This is particularly important on covert insertions. However, I have yet to train with or talk to a military guy or SWAT/SRT officer who says, "I'd pull out my tactical knife and..." To them, it's just a frggin' knife - no matter what color or handle material. Only knifenuts like us get all hot and bothered about these details...LOL!

The second definition is, as Wolfmann put it best, no tool in your gear is tactical until it has been used in a real-world situation. Your handkerchief could be a tactical handkerchief if you use it to bind the wrists of a hostage-taker in a pinch. Tactical means using what's at hand when you need it -- thinking out of the box. Yes, best to prepare ahead with the best gear you can find...a reflective blade can be tactical in certain situations, and in certain situations not. The enviroment and mission dictate the tool, but the best operators learn to make whatever they have, or find, work for them, rather than against them. So, tactical is a mind-set, not a physical tool. It doesn't matter how well you know knives, it's how well you know tactics. The knife is just a tool.

The "tactical knives" I see most often on professional military or LEOs: a multi-tool. It cuts wire/fencing, saws small trees down (in a military covert setting, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone noisily chopping down trees and making a racket with a big blade -- sawing is quieter.), bends burnt metal out of the way, and the pliers are good for pulling hot shrapnel from flesh while waiting for a medic.

In a SWAT dynamic-entry setting, a knife might be used as an emergency breaching tool, or to cut through parts of barricades set-up by the bad-guy, cut the ropes off hostages' wrists, etc. In this case a stout fixed blade is usually best. However, SWAT teams usually have specifically manufactured breaching tools that are not blades at all.

Fighting knives/daggers are good for quiet sentry-removal, although usually a silenced weapon is the preferred method, if the environment is such that the noise of the weapon (yes, they still make noise) and the smell of cordite will not give away the shooter. But in Spec Ops, up-close and personal is often used because the sound of the slide racking on a silenced weapon is easily heard and recognized as an unnatural sound, so a good double-edged blade, not so wide it can't easily insert into an eye-socket, and long enough to reach vital organs in one punch, is necessary and preferred by many in the Teams and SF.

But, for sales purposes, and categorization purposes, it's good to arrive at a consensus as to what a tactical knife is. But, the most important thing is this: it's not what a maker or dealer thinks is "tactical." It's what their customer perceives as tactical...and you have to sell to that perception, or change it (good luck!).
 
Heck, I’ll take a poke at this one...

When the custom knife market (or any commodity market) starts to embrace a fad and then make it a trend, a name has to be given to that trend. This is done for no other reason than to give everyone the ability to use a common word that embodies the trend. – Les Robertson
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So to you, Les, the use of the word “tactical” was coined to mean a category of knives characterized by how they look, with synthetic handle materials, usually black, and non-reflective blades, whether bead-blasted or black-coated.

To me, your problem here lies in trying to then restrict the term “tactical” to a reference to knives with these cosmetic features.

The reason it’s a problem is that the term “tactical” also obviously implies that a knife is suited for certain “tactics”, and the types of knives that fell into the early category of “tactical” were also touted as being suitable for military, police, or other combat-related operations, where certain uses were identified as being the “tactics” for which these knives were designed--as in the term “SWAT”, popularized about the same time, for “Special Weapons and Tactics”.

So, to you, the term “tactical” may have been used early-on to classify these knives solely according to cosmetic features, but for a great many others including the knife-buying public and other makers, the term developed a much broader meaning that extended beyond cosmetics to certain classes of use, consistent with military, police, and combat operations—-including combat, intrusion, and a host of other hard uses which called for strong, no-nonsense knives.

Buyers began looking at these knives for their durability and function, and to see which of them could actually back up their claims of standing up to hard use and abuse. The question became, “Which of these so-called ‘tacticals’ were actually knives you could stake your life on?” This created competition, which was certainly good for both the consumer and for knife design in general. And knives designed for combat/intrusion/survival, etc. have been evolving ever since, along with the terminology that describes them.

As the term “tactical” has become accepted into general knife jargon, it has evolved to cover a whole range of “tactics” associated with these knives, regardless of the materials used in their construction—and obviously, regardless of anyone’s attempts to maintain some kind of restriction on the use of the term “tactical” as nothing more than a cosmetic label.

I would think that the very feedback you’ve received here is all the evidence you need to acknowledge that the term “tactical knives” has evolved beyond its original use as a marketing label, coined only to describe certain cosmetic features, and now embraces an entire genre of knife design suitable for military, police, and combat applications, as well as self-defense.

-Will
 
Originally posted by Gus Kalanzis
[BI think Harley and both Jerry's made some great points.[/B]
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Gus, are you referring to the one where I admit I don't know what I'm doing? :D

Personally, I can't accept the idea that tactical knives are defined primarily by cosmetic attributes rather than functional performance. That would reverse the "form follows function" design philosophy into a "function follows form" approach, and that just makes no sense. Arguably, that makes kitchen knives the prototypical tactical knife since they kill more people than any other forms. I really don't see a contradiction in a tactical knife having artistic merit. It will certainly kill you just as dead as its butt ugly cousin. Where do you draw the line? Are two knives, identical in every respect except for one having a wood handle and the other Micarta, really not related in their intended markets and utility?

Please note, in the above paragraph the operative modifier is "personally". It is simply an opinion and is not intended to render anyone else's opinion invalid or without merit, except to note that opinions are rarely measured in absolute terms. The fact is, the market will decide which definition of "tactical" prevails. Most of the great marketing successes have been the result of successfully redefining a market with products that ignore convention.
 
KYOKC200s.jpg


Tactical fruit-n-veggie knife :p

Brian Jones said: "tactical is a mind-set, not a physical tool. It doesn't matter how well you know knives, it's how well you know tactics. The knife is just a tool."

I think he nailed it.

Why do tactical knives look the way they do? Is it about fashion, or is it about function. If it's exclusively about the "look," why not call them "Goth" knives?

Checked stabilized ebony can be just as tactical as black linen micarta. A rough, scaly, "forge-fresh" finish can be just as tactical as black spray-paint.

To me, "tactical" refers to intended usage, not cosmetics.
 
Jerry has made some great points about tactical blades. Firehorse put up a pic of one of his knives, and Les called it a very nice utility blade. I'm sure it is, but it also has many of the features I'd want in a fighting/tactical blade. I disagree with Les -- he is trying to fit it into a category he is comfortable with as a dealer, and that is fine.

As I mentioned before, environment and mission dictate the tactics. A mirror-polished blade like Jerry's, with a wood or micarta handle, will kick ass when needed. For civilians, it's, in many cases, a better tactical blade than a butt-ugly black killin' machine looking thing. It's easier to explain away a piece of art as a collectible, or utility knife, than an obviously "ready for war" type of knife, if you are questioned, by LEOs or people who are a bit nervous. If your tactics are sound, then the way the knife looks shouldn't be an issue anyway, because your opponent shouldn't even know you have it until it's in him. Otherwise, the tactic of surprise is given away.

I got the chance to use one of Jerry's pieces, unsharpened, for some sparring with CJ Caracci, who had a Vietnam tomhawk. We both agreed that the Hossom Retribution was one HELLuva fine tactical blade. Coming from CJ, with his extensive operational experience in the SEALs and as a Tac/SWAT officer, that's a damn strong validation. There are pics posted in the ATC forum...search on Tomhawk CQB pictorial, and you'll see some shots of us mixing it up, with the Retribution in my hand. The Retribution was easy to handle, fast in the hand, easy to switch grips while in motion, and the handle was comfortable and designed to stay in the hand. I liken that handle style to sports car seats that wrap around your torso to keep you put while doing fast corners at 110 mph...

Best,

Brian.
 
214... 4 yrs Navy Corpsman, stationed with the Marines. 3 yrs National Guard (College). A/D Army 'til 92 (desk job, got tooo fat...)

Never owned a custom knife. Bought the first knife I've bought for myself (CRKT Crawfor/Kasper) a week ago - that got me interested in these forums.

In early '76 I was given an old "Barlow Old Timer" by a friend of my father (retired Marine COL) who said I needed a "good knife." He'd carried it for "years?" Two blades "Ulster, USA" on the main blade. Razor sharp. Carried until early '90's when I decided it was probably better off clean in a box. I was given a Case XX Mako in the early 80's. This was put in a leather sheath with a Mini-Mag and a pair of 4 W/R Vise-Grips (pre Leatherman days.) and carried everywhere but church... I also carried a Normark ugly stainless folding thing.

These alway served me well as "tactical" knives. Of course, in the sticks, we called "tactical" knives beaters - not that we beat on them, but that they would, like the old WTimes commerical, take a lickin' and keep on ticken.'

As an ex military person the "glamor" of a tactical sticker is there, but in my experience, people were razzed for "big" knives or just wouldn't usze them for anything except light cutting, since they didn't want to "hurt" them...:confused: :confused: :confused:
 
Hey Jerry, if you don't know what you're doing then come on over to Paris and help me sell Girlscout cookies!!! I'm making a killing over here :D

My favorites are the Tactical Thin Mints. At least I think they're tactical. I'll have to check with Les to be sure. Heeee Hawwwwww!!!
 
Thanks Brian, I'm glad you enjoyed using that knife. BTW, that knife was not only unsharpened, it was unhardened as well. I made that strictly for handling testing which is exactly what you did with it. I'll bet you didn't even know you were being used! :)

It's a deal Max. I like the Mint ones best.
 
You're welcome, Jerry!

Actually, Andy secretly clued me in so I could eval for him as we played. ;)
 
Hey Jerry, I just read your intro at your website for like the umpteenth time and I finally got it. You are a master of the written word dude. I'm tryly impressed with your interpretation of the blade. Can I come visit you in your shop some day and just watch you while you work? (I'll sweep the floor) That would be a great honor for me. Especially if you were working on one of your TACTICAL knives. I need to learn more about these tactical knives so I can jump on the bandwagon. Heh.

Seriously. Jerry, you are an intense dude that I'd like to meet. And someday I'll buy you a beer. Hell, I'll buy you a whole darn six pack! And help you drink it!!! Hey, I'm a nice guy :D
 
Wood is one one the best handle materials ever used on a combat knife from before W.W.I to today, no question about it, end of story, Period! Doesn't matter a bit that there are new materials these days, wood makes for a great handle on any knife including Tactical knifes.

To many good tactical knifes to list that have wood handles, production and customs, so i will not bother.

Tactical knifes are here to stay and the word will last longer then most of us IMO, new names are given as it should be to describe products all the time, with the times.

James
 
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