Why the notch?

J

jackknife

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Oct 2, 2004
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Okay, I love traditional knives. I think that's a given right up front, so I have a question, and this may go to some of the makers of the knives we love and obsess over.

Why the notch?

You know, that little dohicky in front of the kick that 99% of traditional pocket knives have. Most U.S. made knives have them, some of the European knives have them, while others with a very, very long history of 'hard use' to borrow a phrase, do not. Opinel's, Douk-Douk's made by Cognet, the Mercator K55 knife from Germany, and some of the Spanish knives I've seen do not have the dohicky notch. Nor do any of the modern knives like products from Spyderco.

Usually I don't mind the notch, it's sort of like shields. Traditional. But on some knives, the maker gets a bit carried away, and makes a notch actually big enough to snare fishing line, jute twine, and string. Way too big and deep.

I guess I don't mind them when they are kept to a small size, but like shields, I don't miss them at all when they are not there. I've used the heck out of one Opinel or another since I got my very first one in 1982, and I've never missed the notch on them. In fact, you could say that the Opinel is my 'hard use' knife I resort to when I think it may be too tough or downright dirty for my precious, my peanut.

Soooo, why do we have the notch? If so many knives can get by without it, why put a possible weak point on a knife?

Carl.
 
I think the notch is there to enable the full length of the cutting edge to be sharpened on a stone etc. Without the notch you end up with a trailing edge leading down to the plunge.
 
Par's got it right.

I do fit it a bit annoying when things get caught in it.
 
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For me they are there to determine how much the edge has been sharpened, if I am lucky, in the dark, blurry, distant, wrong sided photos some folks post on web knife sales sites.....other than that I agree with Par.........300

Here is a quick grab sample of Buck made 303s from the 1980's to the 2000's. I can live with these. The third from the left has been sharpened some.
303pivotw.jpg


If I had been paying attention I would have sent the middle 309 back, that is just too much. But, in actuality I still could and I bet they would send me a new one.....I can accept a notch deep as the edge grind, but no more, especially in small folders. Might be different in a big straight knife.
Modern309.jpg
 
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300Bucks said:
For me they are there to determine how much the edge has been sharpened, if I am lucky, in the dark, blurry, distant, wrong sided photos some folks post on web knife sales sites.....other than that I agree with Par.........300

If I had been paying attention I would have sent the middle 309 back, that is just too much. But, in actuality I still could and I bet they would send me a new one.....I can accept a notch deep as the edge grind, but no more, especially in small folders. Might be different in a big straight knife.
Modern309.jpg
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's a great example of way too much. I had a knife like that for a little while, it went down the road. It annoyed me many times when cutting open a plastic bag it snare the plastic, or snare the fishing line, or grab someting. But my question is why have them. How many milliions of hard working Buck 110's and 112's have been made and used hard with no notch at all? I know that when I was in the army, the Buck 110 was THE go-to knife that everyone had on their belt. From chairborne supply clerks to career E8 NCO's like our first sergeant "Elmer the Bull" Wood. Certainly no knife in history has been as hard working a knife as the Buck 110. From soldiers to construction site workers, they were the first of the 'hard use' knife of modern times, except for the humble under estimated Opinel.

I guess the notch is like shields. I don't lie them, but I'll tolerate them for the sake of the knife, if I like other things about the knife. But I hope the knife makers keep them small. Very small.

Carl.
 
The "choil"? I don't mind them but they have little purpose. After several sharpenings the choil will disappear... Then some people cut a new choil... I did raise a question a while back on cutting new choils on vintage knives. My opinion is that it is mainly done to make the blades look more full and deceive prospective buyers. The counter argument is that it makes the blade look cleaner and is not intended to deceive... or at least the deception is just a happy coincidence for the seller. ;)
 
As stated above it is a sharpening choil. I will be the first to go on record in saying that I hate choils in general. I have never, not once, made a fixed blade knife with a choil and probably never will.

Slip joints are a different story however. I don't find myself doing any really hard abusive things to my slip joints and have never had an issue with the choil getting caught on anything. I have thought about making one without but it just didn't look right and the edge would end up looking more like a recurve after I put the initial edge on it.

IMO, proper sharpening of a knife should not go past the choil, making it disappear for many, many years. If that is happening soon then you should revisit your sharpening methods.
 
J. Oeser said:
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IMO, proper sharpening of a knife should not go past the choil, making it disappear for many, many years. If that is happening soon then you should revisit your sharpening methods.
Click to expand...

"several" was a poor choice of words. I meant lots of sharpening but thank you for the tip.

Lots of old knives have been sharpened past the choil. Many of those have been sharpened many times... many of those knives have been sharpened incorrectly. I have no problem putting a new edge on an old blade... but some sellers buy, buff and cut new choils and resell. My opinion, is that the new choils are intended to deceive.
 
I hate the things. I used to have to cut bunches of threads where I worked (I used to make webbing) and the threads used to snag in these notches all the time :mad:
There are some knives I wouldn't buy for that reason alone.
 
Carl,

Ed Fowler agrees with you. I remember him writing an article a few years back lamenting the widespread use of choils. In his experience, choils hinder the performance of a knife, often getting caught up in the medium being cut. Take a look at his knives; you won't see a choil anywhere.

I find them useful. They make it easier to sharpen the entire edge instead of having a thickened area near the kick. Still, I think the sharpening theory is a bit amusing given the poor edges that most slips come with. Choil or not, it doesn't seem to make a difference to the manufacturers as it's better than even money that a new slipjoint will come dull, if not blunt.

As to the choil being a potential weak point, I think it's a non-issue. It's something to consider with a fixed blade like a Fowler as you may have to do something like use your knife to dig a shelter or cut your way out of a big rig, but I can't see myself subjecting my slipjoints to anything that harsh.

Some modern makers still utilize choils. Your beloved SAKs are a notable example.

- Christian
 
I'm with you I don't like them for much the same reason. I also don't buy the sharpening reason. what really is the difference between a small dull area and one that is cut out and not there? Nothing really except the one that is cut away, choil, will snag on many things.
 
db said:
I'm with you I don't like them for much the same reason. I also don't buy the sharpening reason. what really is the difference between a small dull area and one that is cut out and not there? Nothing really except the one that is cut away, choil, will snag on many things.
Click to expand...

On some knives, there's a big difference. Looking straight into the edge of a blade without the choil, there's almost always an upward-curving 'radius' extending through the thicker, rearward portion of the edge, close to the ricasso. The thing I hate the most about that is, a flat sharpening stone's edge will 'ride up' that radiused portion of the edge, which then lifts the stone away from the edge itself (only the stone's edges make contact), and often makes it nearly impossible to sharpen a good portion of the cutting edge, sometimes up to 1/4" - 1/2" of it. On a traditional folder's blade, which is usually pretty small (3" - 4" or less), that's a significant loss of cutting edge length. The effect is even worse on short, thick blades, because the radius is that much deeper. It's always possible to keep grinding away at the radiused portion, until it's flattened out enough to fully apex the edge there. But, that always leaves the rear portion of the blade in a pretty unattractive state, as the resulting bevel there is much wider, and there's usually a very hard transition in grind near the ricasso.

Here's a pic from a very pertinent and informative thread (link below) in the Maker's forum, from a while back:

( from thread: Why do some makers not sharpen the entire blade? )
dsc03087sm.jpg
 
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I think douk douk knives have choils. I never gave the notches any thought but they are quite handy for stripping wires and sutch!
 
I could never understand why a blade must be sharpened all the way to the back. A radius blend is stronger, less likely to hang up as has been mentioned already on this thread.

I have two theories:

The notch is easier and more economical to make than a clean radius blend. Be it a factory milling machine or individual maker.

If the edge is a little off center it is less likely to be noticed.

It may be that tradition plays a roll also.

The radius in David's photo would suit me just fine.
 
Ed, don't you think there is a real difference between a 5" fixed blade and a 2½" folding blade though?
I think David makes a good point.
 
I guess I still don't get it. If the choil is there there is nothing to sharpen because it is cut away and there is no edge. If there is no choil the spot is dull. both end up with the same length of edge just one is cut away and the other is a small dull piece. Edited to add, I'm thinking that the choiled knife probably even has less of an edge. I just don't get how you get more edge by taking away steel. Anyone ever use a boning knife with a large sharpened radius at the heal of the edge? end of edit. I don't have any problem sharpening my choilless knives. I'm guessing on the choiled knives that I have sharpen down to past the choil I probably ended up getting more edge because I sharpened where the choil was.I'd guess most choiled knives become choiless after alot of sharpening as probably darn few regrind in a choil. Witch you could always due to a choiless knife if that is what you prefer. For us that don't care for choils it is kind of hard to put back that steel.
 
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I'm going to agree with Mr. Osser. I won't put them on my fixed blades, but I like them on my folders. I've never had an issue with them hanging up on anything.

As far as Opinels not having a choil, they don't need one. The edge of the blade is completely proud of the pivot area. Totally different design than other traditional knives.
 
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