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Wicked Edge Sharpener VS Apex
- Thread starter woodman318
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2009
- Messages
- 220
Does it handle FFG?
Thanks,
Mike
Thanks,
Mike
"Need" has no place in the equation. "Want" is the operative word. I keep a Sharpmaker set up at all times in the kitchen, but use EdgePro for all serious work, the DMT Aligner for not so serious work, and the RazorEdge clamp for little bitty pen blades and broadheads. I gave away my GATCO to someone who needed a sharpener that worked. Otherwise, I use sandpaper, diamond rods, diamond plates, and a huge assortment of compounds on leather strops. "Need?" (in my best 'Yoda' voice
"There is no 'need.' Only 'want!' 
Stitchawl
"Need" has no place in the equation. "Want" is the operative word. I keep a Sharpmaker set up at all times in the kitchen, but use EdgePro for all serious work, the DMT Aligner for not so serious work, and the RazorEdge clamp for little bitty pen blades and broadheads. I gave away my GATCO to someone who needed a sharpener that worked. Otherwise, I use sandpaper, diamond rods, diamond plates, and a huge assortment of compounds on leather strops. "Need?" (in my best 'Yoda' voice
Stitchawl
You almost made me spill my drink! Don't forget the Hand American set of leather "stones" and glass plates, all set on a Corian base, no less. And Belgian coticule stones for the fine stuff, and the 1x30 belt grinder for the heavy stuff.
And we haven't even started on the tools "needed" for straight razors and woodworking tools yet!
Mike, get (make?) some small hardwood wedges. That's how I solved my FFG problems. Only took me a few years to think of them, but once I did, making them was quick and they work perfectly! I had a similar problem with the DMT Aligner and very thin blades such as Opinel. The tightening screw wasn't long enough to hold the blade securely. I put a coin between the bottom of the screw and the base and everything tightened up perfectly. (If you use a large denomination coin you can get your blades sharper than if you use a small denomination coin...)
Stitchawl
I've been using the large professional model of the EdgePro for close to 10 years now and , as such, have become fairly proficient with it. I sharpen for $ and can put a razor edge on most any knife I come across, and those I can't with the EdgePro, I'm able to with my Sharpmaker. Having said that, the WE does look intriguing. I like the idea of the diamond stones and never having to flatten them. I just don't know that I could justify spending another $200 plus for another system that does, basically, what I can do now. If I didn't already have a system, I would take a long serious look at the WE sharpener. I'd be curious to hear from several people that have long term experience with this system to find its capabilities and its weak spots.
-Dan
-Dan
Yes, you should stay over the table. However, he has chosen a knife with a trailing point that keeps the angle of the stone to the edge roughly the same as he pivots the stone around the tip. As the stone leaves the table and goes further out to the tip and off the table the angle would get shallower except that the trailing (or raised) point compensates for this and keeps the angle of the stone to the blade the same. Also note that the stone remains perpendicular, or tangent, to the edge. It works as well with this shape of knife as it would if he angled the knife over the table keeping the edge perpendicular with the stone over the center of the table.
Yes, he also goes a little off the other edge of the table toward the handle as well and this would change the angle slightly but if you don't like that you can reposition the blade with little interruption about as fast as you can stroke it. You don't have to do the math if you have an EP. You can move the guide up and down and compare this to the angle change that takes place at the edge by moving the stone left and right a inch or so off the table. It looks like it is less then half a degree to me. I don't do this usually but the angle doesn't change much because the distance from the guide pivot to the stone is so much further then the lateral distance.
Another way to look at it is if you strike an arc from the pivot point on the guide to the edge of the table (and knife) and swing it out off the center of the table. you have to move 2 inches or so sideways to bring the arc 1/8 in toward the pivot. If you shorten the hypotenuse of a triangle that is 10 or 12 inches long by 1/8" the angle at the edge doesn't change very much. That is also why the tip scenario worked so well as it may not have changed at all. Again though, if it bothers you don't do it.
It seems to me that this particular knife would also be well suited to sharpening on the WE for the same reasons, but a long straight knife would not as it would require repositioning and re-clamping at just the right location to get the same angle action that Ben Dale gets in that video on the EP.
How does that work on the WE? It seems like that would be more of a problem on the WE then repositioning the blade on the table of the EP.
I also have the EP Pro model with all the stones and tapes, as well as the scissors adapter. I am super happy with it, the results I get using it, and the speed of set up and sharpening.
I also have several other systems like a belt grinder, whet stones, strops, ceramic steels, etc. I looked at the WE before I got the EP. I thought it was kind of unique and looked nice and well built, but that the clamping would be more trouble then it was worth on most knives for the above reasons. Also, I didn't like the lack of stones available. Only two grits and they are in Diamond. I usually only like diamond for the courser grits, or as a super fine polishing past. It also seems like the only thing that an extra set of stones gives you on the WE is that you don't have to un-clamp to sharpen the other side of the blade. Seems like a waste of stones and I would rather have my money in graded grits of stones. I also don't see how you raise a burr if you keep alternating side to side with each stroke. One thing is the WE looks cool but that is not an issue for me. I want the one that works the best.
Seems like the EP is better designed, thought out, and more versatile in these respects, but I am always curious and haven't used the WE. I would welcome hearing from anyone using a WE on where you think I am wrong or how you deal with theses issues. I know it is fairly new on the scene.
Gary
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I thought that looked interesting and had to take a shot at the math. It looks like the angle change by swinging the stone off the table by 2 inches from center would be as follows:
I just guessed at the dimensions for of the EP as I don't have it with me but this should give you an idea.
For the trigonometry we are dealing with two right angle triangles as the angle of the table to the guide post is 90 degrees. If the length of the guide rod is 12 inches (Hypotenuse) and the height used to achieve an approximately 20 degree edge (angle A) is 4.2 inches from the table to the pivot (opposite side). With just a rough measurement on a ruler, if you swing a 12" arc to the edge of the table you move in toward the table approximately 1/8 inch in 2" of arc travel. So for the second triangle the hypotenuse is 1/8" longer as we are touching the edge 1/8" further out on the fulcrum. That is 12.125 instead of 12".
We compute our two triangles and get the difference in the angles at the edge.
4.2/12.000=.3500, ASIN .3500 = 20.4873 Degrees
Moving in 1/8 inch due to arc of swinging off the table center by 2.0", Then the second angle becomes 12+.125=12.125 for the Hypotenuse and the height remains the same.
4.2/12.125=.3464, ASIN .3464 = 20.2668 Degrees
20.4873 for the first angle
20.2668 for the second angle
00.2205 delta degrees
So the angle changes ~ 0.2205 of a degree with a 2" swing.
Somebody check my logic and math. If you want to get more accurate you can measure it or check my math yourself. Or maybe you think he swung 3" from center in the Video? Still not any where near the 4 or 5 degrees mentioned. Even if the contact point on the edge moved out .25", in something like a 3" swing, from center it would still be less then 1/2 degree or ~ 0.4363 of a degree. I would avoid this, and you easily can, but I think this is the error we are talking about. I think there are only a few folks that can hold an angle that accurately free hand sharpening on stones. Especially when working around the tip. If we don't swing out so far from center and do slide the knife to keep the edge tangent with the stone near the center of the table the Edgepro is extremely accurate as far as sharpening goes. On the WE it would seem you would need to re-clamp and move often especially on a long knife or you are going to see greater errors on all knives.
Gary
PS. It appears that even if my estimates of the length of the arm are way off it still doesn't mater much because the height of the pivot would have to come down appropriately to achieve the same angle at the blade. For instance if the distance from the guide post to the edge is really 8 inches (you can measure it) the height of the pivot has to be about 2.75" to achieve a 20 degree angle. The delta angle is still about 0.3223 degrees for a 1/8" difference in arm length.
I just guessed at the dimensions for of the EP as I don't have it with me but this should give you an idea.
For the trigonometry we are dealing with two right angle triangles as the angle of the table to the guide post is 90 degrees. If the length of the guide rod is 12 inches (Hypotenuse) and the height used to achieve an approximately 20 degree edge (angle A) is 4.2 inches from the table to the pivot (opposite side). With just a rough measurement on a ruler, if you swing a 12" arc to the edge of the table you move in toward the table approximately 1/8 inch in 2" of arc travel. So for the second triangle the hypotenuse is 1/8" longer as we are touching the edge 1/8" further out on the fulcrum. That is 12.125 instead of 12".
We compute our two triangles and get the difference in the angles at the edge.
4.2/12.000=.3500, ASIN .3500 = 20.4873 Degrees
Moving in 1/8 inch due to arc of swinging off the table center by 2.0", Then the second angle becomes 12+.125=12.125 for the Hypotenuse and the height remains the same.
4.2/12.125=.3464, ASIN .3464 = 20.2668 Degrees
20.4873 for the first angle
20.2668 for the second angle
00.2205 delta degrees
So the angle changes ~ 0.2205 of a degree with a 2" swing.
Somebody check my logic and math. If you want to get more accurate you can measure it or check my math yourself. Or maybe you think he swung 3" from center in the Video? Still not any where near the 4 or 5 degrees mentioned. Even if the contact point on the edge moved out .25", in something like a 3" swing, from center it would still be less then 1/2 degree or ~ 0.4363 of a degree. I would avoid this, and you easily can, but I think this is the error we are talking about. I think there are only a few folks that can hold an angle that accurately free hand sharpening on stones. Especially when working around the tip. If we don't swing out so far from center and do slide the knife to keep the edge tangent with the stone near the center of the table the Edgepro is extremely accurate as far as sharpening goes. On the WE it would seem you would need to re-clamp and move often especially on a long knife or you are going to see greater errors on all knives.
Gary
PS. It appears that even if my estimates of the length of the arm are way off it still doesn't mater much because the height of the pivot would have to come down appropriately to achieve the same angle at the blade. For instance if the distance from the guide post to the edge is really 8 inches (you can measure it) the height of the pivot has to be about 2.75" to achieve a 20 degree angle. The delta angle is still about 0.3223 degrees for a 1/8" difference in arm length.
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I did forget.... I have a plastic parts cabinet that is exclusively used for my HandAmerican stuff. One old Corian base, one 'new' Corian base (for the magnetic bottom strops,) one glass plate, 12 new model strops (mag based smooth leather and rough leather,) three old model strops with the double sides, smooth leather, rough leather, Black patterned leather, Red leather, felt.... then we get to the drawers with the various compounds... Silicon Carbide paste 4,000 grit and 9,000 grit, Black Diamond paste 11,000 grit, Chromium Oxide liquid 60,000 grit, Diamond paste 1 micron, Diamond paste .5 micron... Then there is the draw with all the bottles of dry silicon carbide grits from 220 though 1,000. That's just the HA stuff. Insane!
I guess HA thought so too as they no longer sell half of this stuff, and have pared down to more essential, but just as effective equipment.
In another cabinet are all the other brands of pastes, compounds, and polishing films. Dovo pastes, Theirs-Issard paste, Flitz, Simi-Chrome, Maas....This is really getting out of hand....
All the stones, rods, plates, foldaway sharpeners, ceramics, glass, etc., actual sharpeners are in another cabinet. This is separate from the entire 'device' set-ups such as EdgePro, DMT Aligner, RazorEdge (Regular and Cub) Lansky, and a few off-brands... If I did this for a living, God only knows what I'd have!
Absolutely! But what I can't understand is why my wife thinks there is anything odd about it?
Stitchawl
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Gary, thanks for taking the time to figure this out. I'm 'numbers challenged' and couldn't even begin to understand how to even approach setting up this equation, but have always wondered about the actual results. If sharpening off the table is only going to give me (or should I say 'take away from me) less than half a degree, it's certainly not something I need to worry about when I'm sharpening. Especially since it's going to be balanced on both sides of the blade anyway!
For my sharpening I don't really care if it's 14 degrees or 16 degrees. I want a thin edge. I don't care if it's 22 degrees or 24 degrees. I want a thick edge. I want my fillet knives thin, my kitchen prep knives medium and my larger hunting knives thicker. If the tips are a half degree finer than the belly, that's quite OK for my needs. In fact, that might actually be better for my needs. I put more pressure on the belly of the knife than on the tips when cutting. It's reassuring to know that when I sharpen and screw up I'm actually doing myself a service!
Thanks again for figuring all this out for us! :thumbup:Stitchawl
You win! :thumbup:
One old Corian base, one 'new' Corian base (for the magnetic bottom strops,) one glass plate, 12 new model strops (mag based smooth leather and rough leather,) three old model strops with the double sides, smooth leather, rough leather, Black patterned leather, Red leather, felt.... then we get to the drawers with the various compounds... Silicon Carbide paste 4,000 grit and 9,000 grit, Black Diamond paste 11,000 grit, Chromium Oxide liquid 60,000 grit, Diamond paste 1 micron, Diamond paste .5 micron... Then there is the draw with all the bottles of dry silicon carbide grits from 220 though 1,000. That's just the HA stuff. Insane!
I guess HA thought so too as they no longer sell half of this stuff, and have pared down to more essential, but just as effective equipment.
In another cabinet are all the other brands of pastes, compounds, and polishing films. Dovo pastes, Theirs-Issard paste, Flitz, Simi-Chrome, Maas....This is really getting out of hand....
All the stones, rods, plates, foldaway sharpeners, ceramics, glass, etc., actual sharpeners are in another cabinet. This is separate from the entire 'device' set-ups such as EdgePro, DMT Aligner, RazorEdge (Regular and Cub) Lansky, and a few off-brands... If I did this for a living, God only knows what I'd have!
The only one-off I have from HA is that Keith was really slow getting one of my orders out, and he threw in a strop with a magnetic bottom - made from a water buffalo. I haven't tried it yet, whenever I get close, it grunts and threatens to trample me... Women can be funny that way. I haven't figured it out either...
That was a hoot. I can't take the credit though.
My son walked in to my office this evening at work right after I read this thread. He is a senior in college taking mechanical engineering, working an engineering internship this semester and he just got off work. I laid out the problem with a triangle diagram and asked him for proper trig function. I would have had to look at a chart. He pulled it out of his .... We worked it on a HP calculator using reverse polish notation and that was a new one for him. Apparently they don't use RPN any more.
All I showed him was a triangle on paper and a few dimensions and the first thing out of his mouth was "does this have something to do with knives".
My son walked in to my office this evening at work right after I read this thread. He is a senior in college taking mechanical engineering, working an engineering internship this semester and he just got off work. I laid out the problem with a triangle diagram and asked him for proper trig function. I would have had to look at a chart. He pulled it out of his .... We worked it on a HP calculator using reverse polish notation and that was a new one for him. Apparently they don't use RPN any more.
All I showed him was a triangle on paper and a few dimensions and the first thing out of his mouth was "does this have something to do with knives".
LOL!You win! :thumbup:
The very first order I put in to HandAmerican too so long I had to write several nasty notes before he got back to me with even an apology! It's too bad their shipping was so screwed up. They had some of the very best products on the market, at great prices! If their shipping and customer service were as good as their product they would have had the market share of the strop business. I still think the HA strops are some of the best values available.
Stitchawl
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1999
- Messages
- 236
Great explanations, Fantastic. I have usually sharpened kitchen knives, and various other none critical value knives to get user friendly with my Apex so the actual act of using it is sound. But probably something that just drives me crazy, and I can't figure out. If I'm doing a nice well maintained knife blade I always seem to find one small vertical scratch (perpendicular to the edge) that I know was made by My Apex. I can tape up the bed, put tape on a majority of the blade but their will always be that one little scratch, just drives me crazy, and that is what draws me, to looking at the WE. I firmly believe it has something to do with the slurry that is necessary for the water stones to cut?
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2003
- Messages
- 346
That was a hoot. I can't take the credit though.
My son walked in to my office this evening at work right after I read this thread. He is a senior in college taking mechanical engineering, working an engineering internship this semester and he just got off work. I laid out the problem with a triangle diagram and asked him for proper trig function. I would have had to look at a chart. He pulled it out of his .... We worked it on a HP calculator using reverse polish notation and that was a new one for him. Apparently they don't use RPN any more.
All I showed him was a triangle on paper and a few dimensions and the first thing out of his mouth was "does this have something to do with knives".
Well he did a great job.
Now we know that there is only a very small angle change when sharpening off the table.
But I am still left puzzled as to the drastic appearance change to the bevel if I attempt to work on the blade tip off the table. The sharpening angle might only change a small amount but it looks like it is changing allot. The bevel widens considerably. Something going on here.
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2009
- Messages
- 14
Couldn't someone with a crappy knife put a bevel about 2 inches away from the blade table...mark it with a sharpie, then center the blade on the table and see how far off the angle is? or measure it?
I'm all for the math...but there seems to be an easier and more exact way. Unless the difference is too small to measure- a fifth of a degree just might be.
I have an EP on the way...if no one does it before I get mine I'll do it.
I'm all for the math...but there seems to be an easier and more exact way. Unless the difference is too small to measure- a fifth of a degree just might be.
I have an EP on the way...if no one does it before I get mine I'll do it.
http://knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/794815
This may be of help to someone?
Mr. Campbell has given to the EdgePro owner a great deal of information and relatated devices.
This may be of help to someone?
Mr. Campbell has given to the EdgePro owner a great deal of information and relatated devices.
Hi Rlucius,
That is a good thread.
Hi Visibililty,
I am sure you will need to try things and experiment like that to prove it to yourself. Try the Sharpie when you do. You can see very small angle changes like this (less then 1/2 degree) at least when changing angles. If you are worried about the math and changing angles though, don't be. Just don't move off the table. You will see. It is quite easy.
Remember this was all in discussing two exceptions where Ben Dale was actually using it wrong, so to speak, and not keeping the area being sharpened over the table to prove a point or make it look easier for the purpose of demonstration. One was where he came off the table on one side to sharpen to the straight part of the edge near the handle. The other was where he sharpens off the table for the tip without sliding the blade to keep the tip on the table. In the case of the straight part off the table the math applies. In the case of the tip on that knife the stone is still tangent to the edge and the distance from the contact point of the stone on the edge to the guide pivot is still the same without moving the blade because where the stone would get further away from the pivot as you moved off the table the tip gets closer because of the curve and even the angle stays relatively tangent to the edge for the same reason. So the math doesn't apply here and no formula is necessary. He just picked a good knife to demonstrate with and stay within the camera view.
Consequently, remember when you get yours that you could just keep the area you want to sharpen (like the tip) over the table all the time the way you are supposed to and the way he says to in the directions. This keeps the angle constant with no questions and the whole discussion is moot.
To accomplish this, you would just slide the guide clip back a little if necessary and angle the blade back around the corner of the clip and keep the edge tangent to the stone and at the same distance out from the edge of the table as when sharpening the straight part of the edge on the table. If necessary you can angle (and slide) the blade in or out from the edge to keep the distance constant too. It takes some thinking but is very easy and takes no time. This is why not having a clamping device is an advantage and adds to accuracy which is the opposite of what you might think at first.
It seems like everyone starting out sharpening is looking for a guide to keep their angles accurate which also involves a clamp in most cases. I did. In most cases having the blade clamped is what causes more problems then the whole guided system helps. The EdgePro holds the angle without clamping and that is why it works so well. It is like the best of free hand sharpening and guided sharpening combined. The edge angle ends up coming out very accurate and repeatable. It is hard to compete with even by a pro freehand sharpening. Like every system there is a learning curve though.
I think you will enjoy your Edgepro.
Gary
That is a good thread.
Hi Visibililty,
I am sure you will need to try things and experiment like that to prove it to yourself. Try the Sharpie when you do. You can see very small angle changes like this (less then 1/2 degree) at least when changing angles. If you are worried about the math and changing angles though, don't be. Just don't move off the table. You will see. It is quite easy.
Remember this was all in discussing two exceptions where Ben Dale was actually using it wrong, so to speak, and not keeping the area being sharpened over the table to prove a point or make it look easier for the purpose of demonstration. One was where he came off the table on one side to sharpen to the straight part of the edge near the handle. The other was where he sharpens off the table for the tip without sliding the blade to keep the tip on the table. In the case of the straight part off the table the math applies. In the case of the tip on that knife the stone is still tangent to the edge and the distance from the contact point of the stone on the edge to the guide pivot is still the same without moving the blade because where the stone would get further away from the pivot as you moved off the table the tip gets closer because of the curve and even the angle stays relatively tangent to the edge for the same reason. So the math doesn't apply here and no formula is necessary. He just picked a good knife to demonstrate with and stay within the camera view.
Consequently, remember when you get yours that you could just keep the area you want to sharpen (like the tip) over the table all the time the way you are supposed to and the way he says to in the directions. This keeps the angle constant with no questions and the whole discussion is moot.
To accomplish this, you would just slide the guide clip back a little if necessary and angle the blade back around the corner of the clip and keep the edge tangent to the stone and at the same distance out from the edge of the table as when sharpening the straight part of the edge on the table. If necessary you can angle (and slide) the blade in or out from the edge to keep the distance constant too. It takes some thinking but is very easy and takes no time. This is why not having a clamping device is an advantage and adds to accuracy which is the opposite of what you might think at first.
It seems like everyone starting out sharpening is looking for a guide to keep their angles accurate which also involves a clamp in most cases. I did. In most cases having the blade clamped is what causes more problems then the whole guided system helps. The EdgePro holds the angle without clamping and that is why it works so well. It is like the best of free hand sharpening and guided sharpening combined. The edge angle ends up coming out very accurate and repeatable. It is hard to compete with even by a pro freehand sharpening. Like every system there is a learning curve though.
I think you will enjoy your Edgepro.
Gary
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Evil spirits?
OK... for a scratch to be on the blade, it has to be put there before you apply the tape. If the scratch is perpendicular to the edge, there must be movement along that axis for it to occur.
If you are taping the blade and the table, examine what you are doing prior to that. Do you measure and set the blade guide before you tape? Set the blade down on the table and slide the guide forward and back to set it properly? That could account for the direction of travel. Although I've destroyed the value of a numbered production run of a Benchmade 707 because I didn't tape it first, none of my scratches are single nor vertical. I just rubbed off a lot of the black coating. That did all come from the slurry.
Stitchawl
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2009
- Messages
- 220
Hi,
I'd suspect that the blade tip is thicker than the belly. This would account for the wider bevel.
It is not likely the change in angle that accounts for the wider bevel since...
If the 12" hypotenuse of the large triangle, made by the guide rod, only grows by 1/8" or ~1% then the hypotenuse of the triangle, which is your edge bevel, should only grow by ~1%. These things change by the same ratio.
Mike