Will some one tell me the history of S110V ?

[Wowbagger]

Or post a link.
I have caught up on S30V. Apparently that came after S90V. And after S110V ?
Was S110V intended as a kitchen cutlery steel ? I can't imagine it was because who needs that kind of extreme abrasion resistance to cut food ? But then I read it is a very desirable steel in the kitchen and Ankerson sure likes it for his kitchen knives.

So what's the story?

The reason I ask is I am about to buy another Para 2 so that is the level of heat treat and geometry I am looking at (not a custom).
Thanks

 

[Ajack60]

According to the knife steel app, it was developed in 2005, has good wear resistance and corrosion resistance. Don't know what application it was developed for. I've got a ZT and two Big Chris knives in it and it holds an edge a long time. You have to take your time sharpening it and use diamonds

 

[Moxy]

In case you didn't know, there's also s60v (also called 440V). It's a rare steel nowadays.

 

[jbmonkey]

In case you didn't know, there's also s60v (also called 440V). It's a rare steel nowadays.

shame too. it is a great steel even today.

 

[Mecha]

Yep a lot of alloys are designed for non-knife jobs, and then along come the knifemakers who "repurpose" them for fun edged goodness!

 

[me2]

I have the patent around here somewhere. It covers several steels of similar intent. They are high wear injection molding steels for corrosive polymers. Niobium was added to enhance corrosion resistance, as it reduces the solubility of chromium in the complex carbides, leaving it unbonded for corrosion resistance. Niobium carbides also tend to form inside the grains, while many others tend to form at the grain boundaries. This can enhance toughness, though with such a high carbide volume, the benefits tend to get lost.

 

[Mo2]

In case you didn't know, there's also s60v (also called 440V). It's a rare steel nowadays.

found this quote from Phil Wilson

CPM S60V was the first stainless offering in a Particle Steel from Crucible. 10V was the first CPM but it does not have enough chrome to be a true stainless. The idea was to add Vanadium Carbide to a 440C chemistry to improve wear resistance. The original use was for the plastics industry for high wear dies and components where stain resistance was necessary. Some of us jumped on it for a blade steel and at the time it was the best stainless out there for wear resistance. Better overall performance than ATS34 or 154CM even at a lower hardness. Heat treating it as Elim mentioned was a challange since to get 60 or so Rockwell reqd a very hot first cycle. That is hard on furnances and thermocouples. You do not see much of it in use any more since CPM S90V was introduced as an upgrade replacement. 90V has the same heat treat temp requirements but has a higher overall obtainable hardness. I liked S60V and made a lot of fillet knives with it. Great corrosion resistance and excellent edge holding at the higher hardness (RC 59 or so) CPM S30V solves some of the heat treating issues and is the most widely used stainless CPM now. CPM S110V is the newest stainless offering. It has Niobium and Cobalt in the mix along with the Vanadium it makes a very hard fine high wear complex carbide. I used this steel on a recent antelope hunt and feel like it has great potential. Time will tell and it is currently in short supply but hopefully we can get more of it in the future. Crucible went through some recent problems but the good news is that it has been bought by a company that is focused on still providing the the good CPM knife blade materials. I know more that you wanted to know and a little off the 60V target but felt like writing some. Phil

Phil's about page talks alot about the history of steel he uses http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/about.htm

The particle metal steels (PM) makeup the largest percentage of my production. These are produced by Crucible Materials and Bohler-Uddeholm. All of the PM steels have a high percentage of very hard; very fine carbide particles in the steel matrix. CPM S90V was introduced in 1997 as an upgrade for CPM S60V. It has a higher attainable hardness for improved wear resistance. I worked in conjunction with Crucible Materials to pioneer the use of CPM S90V for knife blades. I remain one of the few makers currently offering it because very few are set up to heat treat this grade. I built a high temperature, precisely controlled furnace and developed the techniques required for consistent results. I heat treat CPM S90V to a finish hardness of (RC 59-61). CPM S90V is still a very good choice for the ultimate hunting blade but in 2009, Crucible introduced an update for CPM S-90V. This one is CPM S110V. In addition to the 10% Vanadium in S-90V, Cobalt, Moly and Niobium have been added. All these alloys combine to form a complex carbide that provide excellent wear resistance. Crucible also claims better corrosion resistance than S90V. This grade still requires the same attention to heat-treating as S-90V, but the attainable hardness is much higher. My initial work with CPM S110V, and subsequent field testing has shown that a Rockwell hardness of 62 to provide a good balance of hardness and edge strength

CPM 10V has about the same alloy content as CPM S-90V with the exception of Chromium. Five percent Chromium is not enough to make it stain resistant. This however allows a higher attainable hardness (RC 63-64) with the resultant further increase in wear resistance and edge holding. CPM 10V has been the edge holding standard for me ever since I first tried it 15 plus years ago. I currently offer this steel but only for users who ask for it specifically and understand the trade offs associated with its use.

In 2010 Bohler-Uddehlom, a Austrian/Swedish steel company decided to offer knife grade steels to both custom makers and production companies. I have used Bohler N690 for fillet and kitchen knives and found it to have high corrosion resistance, be an aggressive cutter and is easy to sharpen. It is very similar to the better known Japanese VG10 grade.

B-U has also made available two A11 grades that are very similar to CPM 10V. These are K390 and K294. They are pretty much interchangeable with 10V and have found them to make excellent hunting knife blades.

Crucible made a heat of CPM 125V a few years ago and I purchased enough to make about 20 knife blades. To date I have only made a few hunters for test blades. Performance was excellent but due to fabrication difficulties, I have pretty much dropped this one. It looks like at this point that CPM S-110V has all the great potential qualities that CPM S-125V did. It is difficult to grind and finish but is well worth the effort. My cutting tests on Manila rope show a very high wear resistance. It is in the same category as 10V for edge holding and is stainless as a bonus. I can offer this steel only at a premium price due to the workability problems and limited availability of the material.

Please refer to the ARTICLES section for more information on these steels.

when your not too busy check out his other articles as he mentions in the last quote. http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/articles.htm

 

[Ruso]

Or post a link.
I have caught up on S30V. Apparently that came after S90V. And after S110V ?
Was S110V intended as a kitchen cutlery steel ? I can't imagine it was because who needs that kind of extreme abrasion resistance to cut food ?

Why would you think wear resistance is not needed in the kitchen knife? Do you prefer to use dull knife and make a saw motions?
As for S110V, if it can take and hold relative acute angle (10-15dps) polished to relative high grit (3-6K JIS), I do not see why it would not be a good choice for a nice gyuto.

 

[Wowbagger]

Oh MAN !
This is great stuff !
Thank you so much guys.
The use for molds sounds familiar; guess I heard that quite a while ago and forgot.
again THANKS !

 

[Moxy]

Why would you think wear resistance is not needed in the kitchen knife? Do you prefer to use dull knife and make a saw motions?
As for S110V, if it can take and hold relative acute angle (10-15dps) polished to relative high grit (3-6K JIS), I do not see why it would not be a good choice for a nice gyuto.

A highly polished 10dps edge on a kitchen knife is only necessary for cutting delicate vegetable on a cutting board. Ideally, a high quality kitchen knife would never be subjected to cut very abrasive media. So s110v with all it's carbides would be overkill in my opinion, and it would be too difficult to resharpen on anything but diamond.

I prefer kitchen knives (santoku mostly) that are run a little softer so they're less likely to chip, more responsive to honing, and easily resharpened on a regular water-stone.

 

[Wowbagger]

Why would you think wear resistance is not needed in the kitchen knife?

Well at least for me, most of the stuff I cut in the kitchen is already fairly clean and my basic old white paper or 1095 stays sharp for ever and ever so not like cutting gritty boar hide or dirty / construction work / gritty rope. That's all I meant.

PS: But then I'm a crazy man and use a softer plastic cutting board.

 

[Mo2]

A highly polished 10dps edge on a kitchen knife is only necessary for cutting delicate vegetable on a cutting board. Ideally, a high quality kitchen knife would never be subjected to cut very abrasive media. So s110v with all it's carbides would be overkill in my opinion, and it would be too difficult to resharpen on anything but diamond.

I prefer kitchen knives (santoku mostly) that are run a little softer so they're less likely to chip, more responsive to honing, and easily resharpened on a regular water-stone.

Phil recommends the use of Norton crystolon SiC for the alloys he uses. which is decently affordable. but guessing diamonds would be faster.

in any case s110v can be a bit fragile and chippy. not high impact. I'm not sure about its use around bone as I only have a manix2 s110v and mostly use it for cardboard. chipped after using it tail gating at the game.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Phil recommends the use of Norton crystolon SiC for the alloys he uses. which is decently affordable. but guessing diamonds would be faster.

in any case s110v can be a bit fragile and chippy. not high impact. I'm not sure about its use around bone as I only have a manix2 s110v and mostly use it for cardboard. chipped after using it tail gating at the game.

Might be tougher then you give it credit

 

[jdm61]

Some time around 3000-2500 BC, the Egyptians began cold forging nickel-iron meteorites into jewelry and other decorative items. By the time of the Hittite Empire, craftsman had.............wait. You weren't looking for that comprehensive of a history lesson,were you?

 

[tiguy7]

I ordered some S90V steel from the Admiral booth at the 2004 Blade Show for a custom knife. The salesman said that it was the steel that cut other steels. They use it for steel shearing blades. The least I could buy was a 6' piece. They sheared it off of a sheet by heating it to red hot. It was drop shipped to the maker.
The use for plastic molding injection nozzles makes sense for abrasive mixtures like glass filled Nylon (FRN). Some plastics are mildly corrosive in the heated liquid state. I love S60, S90, S110, and S125.

 

[Mo2]

Might be tougher then you give it credit

yea i did that kinda stuff when i first got it, i thought the same thing as you. but it still chipped on me (and many many others). i increased the edge angle so probably wont happen again, but only time will tell.

 

[DeadboxHero]

yea i did that kinda stuff when i first got it, i thought the same thing as you. but it still chipped on me (and many many others). i increased the edge angle so probably wont happen again, but only time will tell.

I'm going strong, no chips so I pulled the edge back so that it will chip if used for something heinous

I've never chipped s110v on normal cutting media, cardboard, plastics , foods, wood

 

[Ruso]

A highly polished 10dps edge on a kitchen knife is only necessary for cutting delicate vegetable on a cutting board. Ideally, a high quality kitchen knife would never be subjected to cut very abrasive media. So s110v with all it's carbides would be overkill in my opinion, and it would be too difficult to resharpen on anything but diamond.

I prefer kitchen knives (santoku mostly) that are run a little softer so they're less likely to chip, more responsive to honing, and easily resharpened on a regular water-stone.

I guess its a preference thing, but I like thin edge, pretty hard and with decent polish. Not too polished tho; Has to have some bite as well. To refersh the edge diamond loaded leather is what I use. Also, 210-240 gyutos are my cup of tea.
I have some softer german knives, this are good for cutting frozen foods or using against the bone, albeit I do not do much of either or.

Wear resistance vs ease of sharpening it's a tradeoff. And a personal preference. This applies to any type of knife made of S110V. Do you want to sharepen more often but faster per session, or vice versa? I do not see why this wont be the same for a kitchen knife.

Having a san-main (layered) construction with softer stainless clad might be a an option to consider. Maintaining/thinning a solid slab of s110v must be a b*tch.

Well at least for me, most of the stuff I cut in the kitchen is already fairly clean and my basic old white paper or 1095 stays sharp for ever and ever so not like cutting gritty boar hide or dirty / construction work / gritty rope. That's all I meant.

PS: But then I'm a crazy man and use a softer plastic cutting board.

In my opinion a good gyuto(chef knife), has to be able to keep a keen and fairly polished edge without crumbling among other things. If S110v can do this, its a good choice for a chef/gyuto/santoku/suji
If it keeds a keen edge for longer than other steels, it will be a plus in many situations and a minus in others.


If something is good enough, it does not mean we have to stop the progress. 1095 is good enough for pretty much any task, kitchen or not. But we want better, different, faster, shinier....

 

[Frank Cox]

CPM S60V (440V), CPM S90V (420V), and CPM S110V were all developed for plastics processing equipment like Screws and Barrels and Barrel liners ect. CPM S30V and CPM S35VN, and were the only grades Crucible developed specifically for the Knife Industry. I worked for Crucible for 20 years up until the bankruptcy. CPM S60V has been re-introduced by Crucible/Niagara Specialty Metals and stock is available.

 

[Wowbagger]

Some time around 3000-2500 BC, the Egyptians began cold forging nickel-iron meteorites into jewelry and other decorative items. By the time of the Hittite Empire, craftsman had.............wait. You weren't looking for that comprehensive of a history lesson,were you?

I wanted you to know I did enjoy that.